Goku + Gohan = ?

[Wojak]

The were monsters compared to them before they fused.

If the potara work as suggested, then, at the very lest they would be as powerfull as SSJ 3 Goku (probably more), and while Kibitoshin analysing skills are garbage, Goku`s aren`t.

If he became as powerfull or more than Goku, Goku would notice and I seriously doubt he would ask Kibitoshin to leave if that was the case when the time came to fight kid buu. Vegeta maybe, Goku no. As we had seen before, Goku had no issues leaving the buu problem to people that could do a better or similar job than him (mystic Gohan and Gotrunks). Why would he start now?

I accept all your opinions and they are all possible, but they make less sense to me than what I suggested.

So, Kibitoshin was weaker than both Vegeta and Goku?
Since you imply that Kibitoshin wasn't chosen to go along with him and Vegeta.
He let Gohan and Gotenks to fight because of that he wanted the new generation to solve the problems. Otherwise he would have killed fat Buu when he had the chance. He even stated that he could have handled him.
So, Kibitoshin could have been stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but Goku wasn't interested in him joining the fight. He would just have been in the way.
He didn't have any fighting spirit, nor any special expertise at that point that could help them.

Plus, Vegeta stated that it was time for the Earthlings to solve their own problems for once.
Both Goku and Vegeta would at this point regard themselves as Earthlings too, as they lived at Earth.
So leaving the job to Kibitoshin would be contradictory.
His job was to look at everything from above and aid as the last resort, if everything else failed.

Note also that SSJ3 has a 400x multiplier. If we say that a Super Saiya-jin is 50 in power (when just reaching it), to be able to kill Freeza with one blow he should be 150 in power, just like Kaioshin.

Goku would in this case be at least 4 in base (200 as a SSJ), as he has mastered the transformation. So his end-power would be 800.

So if we simply fuse Kaioshin and Kibito, and add a mere 3x multiplier, we get: 150+150= 300. Multiply that with 3 and you get 900.

Remember that Goten and Trunks were way weaker than Goku, and in their fusion they surpassed SSJ3 Goku greatly.
Why wouldn't Kibitoshin do that too, you could ask.

[Bussani]

When Kaioshin and Kibito first fuse, Kibitoshin seems pleased with his own power and offers to fight with Goku. What Rou Dai Kaioshin tells them exactly (in the Viz translation) is;

"Don't get carried away! You may be much stronger than before, but you weren't much to start with. You'd just be more fodder for Buu."

I always assumed that Kibitoshin was decently powerful, though. Maybe he would have had a chance against Kid Buu, even though he didn't have a chance against Gotenks Buu or Gohan Buu. Or maybe he would have just been stupid and gotten himself absorbed or something.

To be honest, I don't think the Potara fusions are perfectly predictable. I saw them as being potentially more powerful, but less predictable than the fusion dance. Vegetto came out exceptionally strong. This is why I considered that it might add the powers together, then multiply them on a value determined by compatibility.

Maybe it's a mix of both, though. The way Herms' quote was written, if you look at it carefully, does seem to imply what Dayspring said. Maybe it's not quite so clean cut though as just 'this power multiplied by this power' though. I mean, what do Potaras measure 'power' in? I guess Mr Toriyama was just being vague. "It's not the sum of their powers, but some kind of multiplication instead."

[Onikage725]

So, Kibitoshin was weaker than both Vegeta and Goku?

Yessir.

Kaioshin - Completely ineffective against Fat Buu. His strongest attack was a temporary annoyance. Stated to be stronger than Freeza, but was terrified of a guy around Cell's level.

Kibito - OHKO by Dabura.

Vegeta - Power from him and Goku swiftly filled the last half of Buu's sphere. He was strong enough to do significant damage to Fat Buu, but not strong enough to overwhelm his ki and cancel out his regeneration (so none of his damage actually lasted or debilitated Buu).

Goku - Supposedly could have easily killed Fat Buu. Fought on even ground with Kid Buu.

I dunno if he was stronger than Vegeta, but I doubt he was stronger than Goku. That would put him above the level of a SSJ3. And if that was all it took to produce a magically charged fighter stronger and more stable than SJ3, why would Rou Kaioshin have wasted all that time with Gohan, or not dispatched him right away to team up with Gohan? Keep in mind, too, much of your evidence is what Goku wanted regarding the Z Senshi. Rou Kaioshin is the one who told Kaiobito that he wasn't that strong and would get in the way, not Goku.

And, before this goes further- what is our multiplication evidence exactly? I said earlier that fake math was the devil (more or less) and we're having pages of debate based on what form of multiplication to use.

So I started thinking back all the old Gogeta vs Vegetto discussions (which by nature turn into dance vs earring discussions). And we never come away with anything conclusive about whether Vegetto is more powerful than Gogeta. The implication from the manga seems to be that that Potarra is more effective- Rou Kaioshin points out it's superiority specifically in regards to the dance taking to look to be done without interruption from Buu (who wouldn't just let them do it) and that is has a time limit/power consumption limit. It is instant and the blending is permament regardless of other factors, thus the earrings are a stronger mechanism. But there is little conclusive proof that the actual fusion results in a physically more powerful being than the dance would yield (unless one subscribes to the notion that the earrings would yield a rivalry bonus +1 and the dance would not- but keep in mind Kaioshin was referring to why Vegetto was a solid fusion and was not comparing him to the non-canon Gogeta or even to Gotenks). I pulled up the scans I have on my old machine, and the Viz edition of the last volume (for the convo before Goku leaves to fuse and for the commentary about Vegetto, respectively) and I don't see anything about power multiplication.

So what line am I missing? Is there mistranslation in the scans? With Viz? Is it from the anime? Dub or sub?

[Bussani]

So what line am I missing? Is there mistranslation in the scans? With Viz? Is it from the anime? Dub or sub?

It's from the Super Exciting Guide. I'd like to hear more from Herms on the subject, to be honest, since he only made a passing mention of it in his translation (which might be all that there was, of course).

For the potara, it says that the power-up from merging isn’t a sum of the two’s battle powers, but rather as tremendous as multiplication.

[rereboy]

The were monsters compared to them before they fused.

If the potara work as suggested, then, at the very lest they would be as powerfull as SSJ 3 Goku (probably more), and while Kibitoshin analysing skills are garbage, Goku`s aren`t.

If he became as powerfull or more than Goku, Goku would notice and I seriously doubt he would ask Kibitoshin to leave if that was the case when the time came to fight kid buu. Vegeta maybe, Goku no. As we had seen before, Goku had no issues leaving the buu problem to people that could do a better or similar job than him (mystic Gohan and Gotrunks). Why would he start now?

I accept all your opinions and they are all possible, but they make less sense to me than what I suggested.

So, Kibitoshin was weaker than both Vegeta and Goku?

Don`t know. All I`m saying is he coudn`t be as strong or stronger than SSJ 3 Goku. Kibitoshin left because there was at least one warrior stronger than him that could do the job better than him. All he could hope for was to stall buu and Vegeta as a experienced fighter would be able to do that. If he was more powerfull than SSJ 3 Goku he would be very helpfull and Goku wouldn`t just tell him to go away like he did.

Since you imply that Kibitoshin wasn't chosen to go along with him and Vegeta.
He let Gohan and Gotenks to fight because of that he wanted the new generation to solve the problems. Otherwise he would have killed fat Buu when he had the chance. He even stated that he could have handled him.

He let the kids and Gohan handle him because he was confident they would be able to handle him. Meaning they could do the job as well or better than him. If Kibitoshin is more powerfull than SSJ 3 than it would be the same.
If he felt that kids couldn`t do it he would try to kill fat buu with all his power.

So, Kibitoshin could have been stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but Goku wasn't interested in him joining the fight. He would just have been in the way.
He didn't have any fighting spirit, nor any special expertise at that point that could help them.

How can he be in the way if he is stronger than Goku? It does not make sense.
How can he even not have any fighting spirit if he went to earth to stop buu? That alone implies he is willing to fight. Not to mention if he is the most powerfull warrior available.

Plus, Vegeta stated that it was time for the Earthlings to solve their own problems for once.
Both Goku and Vegeta would at this point regard themselves as Earthlings too, as they lived at Earth.
So leaving the job to Kibitoshin would be contradictory.
His job was to look at everything from above and aid as the last resort, if everything else failed.

So Kibitoshin, facing the destruction of the Daioshin planet and the destrution of the entire cosmos would just stand aside, if he was more powerfull than both of them. It doesn`t make sense to me. Buu was the cosmos` problem. Not just Earth problem.

Note also that SSJ3 has a 400x multiplier. If we say that a Super Saiya-jin is 50 in power (when just reaching it), to be able to kill Freeza with one blow he should be 150 in power, just like Kaioshin.

Goku would in this case be at least 4 in base (200 as a SSJ), as he has mastered the transformation. So his end-power would be 800.

So if we simply fuse Kaioshin and Kibito, and add a mere 3x multiplier, we get: 150+150= 300. Multiply that with 3 and you get 900.

I agree that the fusion is a multiplier. Just not a multiplier that works as it was being suggested.

It was being suggested that the fusion multiplies the power of the two fused together.

Meaning that if the Kaioshin and his servant had a power level of 80 000 000 and 85 000 000 , their fusion would be 6 800 000 000 000 000 in power.

Now if we consider Goku at having 1 000 000 000 (1 billion) at base, and even if we assume the SSJ 3 multiplies that by 10 000 (not 400 as it should be) we would get 10 000 000 000 000.

Kibitoshin would still be 680 times stronger than him! How could that not be helpful?

That is all I am saying. Fusion can not be the result of multiplying one of the people fused power by the other.

It must be more similar with this: (A + B) x Z = Y

I have no idea if that formula works in all situations. However it fits better than multiplying one by the other.

Remember that Goten and Trunks were way weaker than Goku, and in their fusion they surpassed SSJ3 Goku greatly.
Why wouldn't Kibitoshin do that too, you could ask.

We have no idea how strong was SS3 Gotrunks comparing him with SSJ3 Goku since SSJ 3 Goku didn`t fight seriously against Fat Buu.
I agree SSJ 3 Gotrunks is stronger, but how stronger? We have no idea of knowing. Maybe they aren`t so apart in power. Maybe they are. We dont know.

Read the red parts (I posted this way because it was easier this way to me to answer everything you said).

All I was trying to say is that the power of a potara fusion cannot be determined simply by multiplying one power by the other.

As shown by my example of how strong Kibitoshin would be ( even if we consider Goku at having a power level of 1 000 000 000 at base and his SSJ 3 multiplying that by 10 000 ) it doesn`t make much sense when we think about the fight with Kid buu. Everything suggested that Goku was stronger and more capable than Kibitoshin.

[Dayspring]

If he became as powerfull or more than Goku, Goku would notice and I seriously doubt he would ask Kibitoshin to leave if that was the case when the time came to fight kid buu. Vegeta maybe, Goku no. As we had seen before, Goku had no issues leaving the buu problem to people that could do a better or similar job than him (mystic Gohan and Gotrunks). Why would he start now?

I accept all your opinions and they are all possible, but they make less sense to me than what I suggested.

Sensing ki has nothing to do with knowing that afterlife energy consumption differs from living energy consumption. Like I said, Goku knew that he was stronger in SSJ3 (full power), so his request was a valid one. Also, they refused to fuse, saying they wanted to fight Boo individually because of their warrior/Saiyan instincts. It's possible Kibitoshin was waiting for Boo to win before stepping in to save the day, out of respect for their wishes.

[rereboy]

It is possible but since everything seems to suggest otherwise, I dont think so.

Not even an "wow omg your power went ski high! You might even be as strong or even more than me! But not enough to fight Gotrenks Super buu " out of Goku when they fused?

Even Dai Kaioshin never told kibitoshin to fight against kid buu... Yet he seemed not very pleased with the fact that the one to pull the sword was not a Kaioshin.

All these liltle things is what makes me think the way I do

[Onikage725]

@Bussani - agreed, I would like to know if this guide said anything further.

Let's be honest here- what measure of power would we even be talking about? We as fans tend to reduce everything to static battle powers, scouter-style. But Toriyama specifically wrote the story to show the limitations of that, and eventually said they were totally ineffective and wrote them out (as opposed to writing Bulma as having reversed engineered the tech and serving as Slippy from the Star Fox games with enemy analysis). So what counts as an exponential power increase to the magically-inclined Kaioshin who created the earrings =/= what Freeza's techies considered "battle power." Hell, Goku stated that Dabura was more powerful than he thought just because he saw him use magic (certainly not a measure of his ki). Even Babidi was considered dangerous and somewhat powerful, and his power level would probably be like a 1. Or less. Seriously, I think Sea Turtle could take him out in a round of fisticuffs.

I know neither Goku or Vegeta knows magic or anything like that. I'm just saying that any statement about fusion amplification shouldn't necessarily be taken to mean Base A's Numerical Power Level x Base B's Numerical Power Level = Fusion Warriors Total Numerical Power Level.

And don't even get me started on the law of conservation of energy. Magical blending or not, ki doesn't just come out of nowhere. And there is no precedent whatsoever within the story to assume otherwise, even with magical aid. Even the Majin spell has Babidi state that he is drawing out one's own latent power. A fighter has to have the potential already in order for magic to help them use it. Magic doesn't just add arbitrary power in and of itself.

[Innagadadavida]

Booney did some awesome Gokhan artworks.

http://superbooney.deviantart.com/art/G ... -121406676

[rereboy]

That is a very cool design.

[Onikage725]

Booney did some awesome Gokhan artworks.

Cool design, and looks a little bit more youthful than the pic it was inspired by.

[Bussani]

@Bussani - agreed, I would like to know if this guide said anything further.

Let's be honest here- what measure of power would we even be talking about? We as fans tend to reduce everything to static battle powers, scouter-style. But Toriyama specifically wrote the story to show the limitations of that, and eventually said they were totally ineffective and wrote them out (as opposed to writing Bulma as having reversed engineered the tech and serving as Slippy from the Star Fox games with enemy analysis). So what counts as an exponential power increase to the magically-inclined Kaioshin who created the earrings =/= what Freeza's techies considered "battle power." Hell, Goku stated that Dabura was more powerful than he thought just because he saw him use magic (certainly not a measure of his ki). Even Babidi was considered dangerous and somewhat powerful, and his power level would probably be like a 1. Or less. Seriously, I think Sea Turtle could take him out in a round of fisticuffs.

I know neither Goku or Vegeta knows magic or anything like that. I'm just saying that any statement about fusion amplification shouldn't necessarily be taken to mean Base A's Numerical Power Level x Base B's Numerical Power Level = Fusion Warriors Total Numerical Power Level.

And don't even get me started on the law of conservation of energy. Magical blending or not, ki doesn't just come out of nowhere. And there is no precedent whatsoever within the story to assume otherwise, even with magical aid. Even the Majin spell has Babidi state that he is drawing out one's own latent power. A fighter has to have the potential already in order for magic to help them use it. Magic doesn't just add arbitrary power in and of itself.

I agree with you that it can't be brought down to simple numbers. When I use numbers, it's as very rough estimates, so I can look at them and say, "hey, this character might have been 3 times stronger than this character." That's why I never try to use official battle powers; I just pick a good number to show the calculation and run with it.

I'm not sure if I agree about ki not coming out of thin air, though. Under normal circumstances that seems to be true, but I've seen it break the laws of conservation of energy before. And since it's a spiritual energy, I just chalk it up to that.

Take Cell for instance. He explodes, regenerates from practically nothing, and then comes back with more ki than he started with. Where did that come from? Regenerating from his core must have taken a lot of energy, too, yet instead of going down his ki ends up going up.

Another thing the Super Exciting Guide said was that ki is made up of a person's energy, vigor, bravery, strength of character, etc.

In short, I don't think we can say "they can't be brought down to numbers" and then say, "but it has to follow the laws of thermodynamics." Those two statements don't exactly mesh.

[Onikage725]

In short, I don't think we can say "they can't be brought down to numbers" and then say, "but it has to follow the laws of thermodynamics." Those two statements don't exactly mesh.

That's apples and oranges in my mind. I'm not sure if I can explain the difference to me, but I'll try.

Ki is linked to a number of factors, as you said (or cited). And there is room for fluctuation, which is why static numerical rankings fail against well-trained fighters. Emotions can change ones power output (an angry flare up, or an unconfident fighter subconsciously limiting their ability). Physical injury can weaken a fighter (Zarbon was, according to the manga, still stronger than Vegeta in their second fight- but his power dropped like a stone when he took that savage hit). Transformation can occur to reconfigure a body to channel more power. Magical assistance can help one tap power laying dormant that would otherwise take intense training or duress to reach.

But it always seems like that power was *there* and the story event helped the fighter reach it. You mentioned Super Perfect Cell. I never saw that power as coming from nowhere. He likely was weak, for a second. But then multiple Saiyan cells improved to compensate for total body annihilation. Let's face it, Cell's combo of Piccolo's regeneration, Freeza's lack of dependence on specific organs, and the Saiyan ability to improve upon weaknesses when survivng near-fatal wounds was... perfect. So these improvements kick in, and that added to his stress at the situation, triggers another Saiyan trait. His power goes from king of the SSJ heap to SSJ2-level. The ki increase was from the surge that goes with such a change. I know that isn't explicit in canon, but that's my theory going ff his aura and rejuvenation.

So, to me, Vegetto is strong enough without needing to imagine that potarra randomly raises his PL to eleventy trillion.

Vegetto's seven feet tall!
Yes, I've heard. Kills men by the hundreds. And if he where here, he'd consume Majin Buu with fireballs from his eyes and bolts of lightning from his arse.

[Bussani]

Those are some good points, Onikage. But let me ask you this; where does new ki come from? When you've used up your old ki, how do you refill yourself? You can't create energy, it has to come from somewhere. Just resting can't generate energy. Not even Goku eats enough food to account for the amount of power they can put out.

Ki does seem to follow some rules, but they're different rules unique to ki, I think. It's metaphysics, rather than real physics. As such, two people's spirits put together becoming something greater than the sum of it's parts seems to make sense to me. That's even how Goku describes the fusion dance. Of course, as you said, it could just be that it brings out more of that hidden potential of theirs...I dunno.

[Onikage725]

Those are some good points, Onikage. But let me ask you this; where does new ki come from? When you've used up your old ki, how do you refill yourself? You can't create energy, it has to come from somewhere. Just resting can't generate energy. Not even Goku eats enough food to account for the amount of power they can put out.

Ki does seem to follow some rules, but they'r, rather than real physics. e different rules unique to ki, I think. It's metaphysicsAs such, two people's spirits put together becoming something greater than the sum of it's parts seems to make sense to me. That's even how Goku describes the fusion dance. Of course, as you said, it could just be that it brings out more of that hidden potential of theirs...I dunno.

Yeah, I see what you mean. But I do kinda see it as a full potential (or, rather, two full potentials) brought out. Normal Gotenks, in filler, seeming to be around the level of a SSJ and being able to reach SSJ3 makes sense to me because I assume the children had loads of untapped potential (which Goku realized) and the magical nature of fusion allowed them greater access to their power. Gogeta and Vegetto at SSJ completely owning Janenba and Buu likewise clicks with me. I guess just the concept of two PL's flatly multiplied by each other seems odd to me. It seems a bit much.

To answer your first question, I just see ki as a super-powered application of one's energy (within these fictional shounen universes, anyway). Fresh ki comes to the exhausted fighter who finds new resolve the same way the over-exerted athlete can push himself to keep moving. If I were to design a pen and paper DBZ RPG, I'd probably give a ki level (or power level overall) by multiplying certain other main characteristic together. And it would raise not by power being dropped in the pool but as the natural result of recalculating when those other characteristics rose (via training or fusion or transformation or what have you).

[Wojak]

Those are some good points, Onikage. But let me ask you this; where does new ki come from? When you've used up your old ki, how do you refill yourself? You can't create energy, it has to come from somewhere. Just resting can't generate energy. Not even Goku eats enough food to account for the amount of power they can put out.

Glycogen reserves in his muscles?

Seriously, though, I think that as it was just said that Ki has to do with the spirit of the fighter too, and that the body isn't the only thing that holds Ki.

On another note: Any fighter except for Vegetto is weaker than a Senzu bean. If the Senzu bean would be an opponent, he would own them all.
A senzu bean restores power fully, no matter how strong you are.
But the limit may be Vegetto.
It would take 1000s of beans to restore his power.

I know they are magical, he he.

[Bejiita]

If Goku and Gohan fused instead, their fusion would have been a lot stronger than Vegetto, despite the fact Kaioshin said their rivalry powered up the fusion, Gohan was a lot more stronger than Vegeta, and foget about them having to choose a woman 'cos they would have split into two again someway or another. The name is always one I neved could piece together properly, 'Gokhan' and 'Gon' sound out of place for some reason, I would have combined the last parts from their names and made the name 'han-ku', it would be a change to having 'Go' at the begining of another characters name.

[Bomber Greek]

Hanku.

[NeptuneKai]

Hanku.

"Osu Ora Hanku, I sell propane and propane accessories! "