About Freeza's Transformations / Guide Page

[freezamite]

I think this part of your website is not perfect.
In the manga series is said that freeza's real form is the last one that we see, and that he transform his body not to increase his power but to decrease it.

In your section, you count freeza's forms as if the weakest one was the first one, but freeza's real first form is the strongest one.

And when describing mecha freeza, you say it was at least as strong as the original one.
This is a big mistake, the manga says at least 3 times that mecha freezer is faar weaker than the one we see on namek.

Bye.

[Kaboom]

This is a big mistake, the manga says at least 3 times that mecha freezer is faar weaker than the one we see on Namek.

I don't recall ever reading this. Freeza was more powerful, he just never powered up against Trunks.

[freezamite]

This is a big mistake, the manga says at least 3 times that mecha freezer is faar weaker than the one we see on Namek.

I don't recall ever reading this. Freeza was more powerful, he just never powered up against Trunks.

He couldn't power up against Trunks. When Trunks turned into a SSJ, Mecha Freeza attacked with all his strenght, so if he didn't power up is because in its mecha form, that was all the power he had.

And it is not correct to say that he didn't had enough time to free all his power, because he was the first to attack.

[Bussani]

Personally, I do believe that Freeza's final form was his true form. But I have the manga, and I don't recall this ever being said explicitly. I think it might have been implied though.

I don't see anything about Freeza being 3 times stronger. All Gohan says is, "this is nothing. His ki gets way bigger than this," or something to that effect. If I recall, the Daizenshuu battle power list only lists Mecha Freeza as slightly stronger than his final form was originally.

Anyway, the names 'first form', 'second form', etc, refer to the order we see them. As the page says, those names are taken from the fourth Daizenshuu.

[freezamite]

Personally, I do believe that Freeza's final form was his true form. But I have the manga, and I don't recall this ever being said explicitly. I think it might have been implied though.

I don't see anything about Freeza being 3 times stronger. All Gohan says is, "this is nothing. His ki gets way bigger than this," or something to that effect. If I recall, the Daizenshuu battle power list only lists Mecha Freeza as slightly stronger than his final form was originally.

Anyway, the names 'first form', 'second form', etc, refer to the order we see them. As the page says, those names are taken from the fourth Daizenshuu.

The problem of the Daizenshuu is that it wasn't made by toriyama. Toriyama did some sections of it, but most of it was made by people like us that were paid by the Toei animation or the shonen magazine.

Gohan says "this is nothing. His ki gets way bigger than this" because mecha freezer's ki is weaker than the one he saw in namek from the original freeza.

PS: Freeza says his final form is his true form when he fight against vegeta in his 4th form (ther 1st we see). He explain that he doesn't transforms his body to increase his power like other species, he transforms it to control his power.

[Kaboom]

He couldn't power up against Trunks.

He has to be able to. He was stated to be stronger than he was on Namek, but Gohan remarks that he's weaker than that, which means he can power up, but hasn't.

When Trunks turned into a SSJ, Mecha Freeza attacked with all his strenght, so if he didn't power up is because in its mecha form, that was all the power he had.
And it is not correct to say that he didn't had enough time to free all his power, because he was the first to attack.

He threw out one ki attack, then barely had time to react to Trunks' own before getting sliced to bits. It takes time for Freeza to power up to 100%. He only did on Namek because Goku let him do it for a good fight. Trunks was coming at him with the intent to kill straight off the bat.

[Bussani]

Freeza says his final form is his true form when he fight against vegeta in his 4th form (ther 1st we see). He explain that he doesn't transforms his body to increase his power like other species, he transforms it to control his power.

He doesn't say it in that scene, but later on before he transforms for the last time he does call it his 'true form'. Like I said, I believe that means it was his original form, and that's always what's made the most sense to me. Arguably he could have just been referring to it being his true strength, but I don't think that's it. Especially since in the conversation you mentioned, Vegeta talked about beings transforming for camouflage or to conserve power, which also implies that Freeza downgraded himself.

I don't think there's a problem with the Daizenshuu names or using them. Calling his forms "first form, second form, third form and final form" doesn't mean that his first form was his original form. It's just the order we see them; it's simple and makes sense, and doesn't go against the idea of his final form being his true form at all.

Edit: Oh, I misread what you originally said about Mecha Freeza being weaker. My mistake.

I agree with Kaboom. His ki was weaker because he wasn't powered up, and in the manga he never really got a chance to. He says to his father at one point, "With the two of us we'll beat him (Goku) no problem. I could probably do it myself, since I've grown more powerful."

[freezamite]

He has to be able to. He was stated to be stronger than he was on Namek, but Gohan remarks that he's weaker than that, which means he can power up, but hasn't.

What happens here is what I think that makes the manga of Dragon Ball such an excelent piece of art.

Freeza says he was stronger than when he fought with the super sayan, if son gohan didn't say he wasn't, then the only explanation is what you say, he didn't have time to power up himself but he could.

But if you read carefully this part, and you FORGET all you have seen from the anime series, there is another explanation that I think it's the correct one, because during all the namek and cell sagas is the only one than can't be contradicted.

The explanation is the following:
Freeza thinks he is stronger than himself when fought against the SSJ because when he did, he was "bad injured" by the Genkidama. When a character is injured in DB, he loses strenght.
Now he think he is at his full capacity again and thinks that can win the fight, but he can't know if this is what is really happening because he can't detect energies.

Why I think this is what happened and not what you say?
Freeza, in its true form (the 4th that we see), even without power up, was far strongher than in his 3rd form (the 2nd we see) fighting at full strength.
When arriving on earth, Cold was in his 3rd form, and even more, he wasn't powered up, and Mecha freeza's power was weaker than that.
Cold was weaker than freeza, this was said during the namek part, when freezer admitted that his father was the only one (besides goku) that put dust on him (so he had at least one fight with his father).
But then, freeza says one time and another that he is the number one of the universe (he wouldn't say that if he didn't think he really was, so this implies that cold was weaker because freeza had fought with cold before saying that). In fact, he also repeated that being with his father, so he really thought that he was strongher than him, but he wasn't.

Your version contradicts the manga because if mecha freeza really had more power than his final form in namek, then it is impossible that he could be weaker than his transformed father even if he wasn't power up and his transformed father was fighting at his full strength, because if Cold is weaker than freezer, his 3rd form would be, at the better case (for cold), as strong as freeza's 3rd form, but not strongher.

And I would say even more, there are during the cell saga lots of thing that I think that give me the reason in that point.

He threw out one ki attack, then barely had time to react to Trunks' own before getting sliced to bits.

This KI attack was done with all mecha freeza's strength, trunks told him to attack with all he had since the begining of the fight, and watching at freezer's reaction, this was what he did.

He doesn't say it in that scene, but later on before he transforms for the last time he does call it his 'true form'.

Yes, look at chapter 296, it is said at the first page.

Regards.

[B]

In your section, you count freeza's forms as if the weakest one was the first one, but freeza's real first form is the strongest one.

I don't see the problem here. The first form the readers see is his weakest, while the true, original form(and therefore, by in-universe standards, his first form) is the strongest.

[Bussani]

He doesn't say it in that scene, but later on before he transforms for the last time he does call it his 'true form'.

Yes, look at chapter 296, it is said at the first page.

Regards.

It's not there in my copy. What version of the manga are you going from?

At the end of the previous chapter, Vegeta says, "why don't you transform and show us what you really are?" though. Another hint.

[freezamite]

He doesn't say it in that scene, but later on before he transforms for the last time he does call it his 'true form'.

Yes, look at chapter 296, it is said at the first page.

Regards.

It's not there in my copy. What version of the manga are you going from?

At the end of the previous chapter, Vegeta says, "why don't you transform and show us what you really are?" though. Another hint.

I'm talking about 3 diferent and independent versions of the manga, the english one, the castillian one and the catalan one.

At chapter 296, in the first page, vegeta talks about the different transformations that some species can do (to increase its power or to camouflage) but freeza says "in my case is different, I have so much strength that not even I can fully control it".
So he transforms to weaker forms to have a better control of his energy.

[Bussani]

Yes, look at chapter 296, it is said at the first page.

Regards.

It's not there in my copy. What version of the manga are you going from?

At the end of the previous chapter, Vegeta says, "why don't you transform and show us what you really are?" though. Another hint.

I'm talking about 3 diferent and independent versions of the manga, the english one, the castillian one and the catalan one.

At chapter 296, in the first page, vegeta talks about the different transformations that some species can do (to increase its power or to camouflage) but freeza says "in my case is different, I have so much strength that not even I can fully control it".
So he transforms to weaker forms to have a better control of his energy.

That's what I said in my second post.

[freezamite]

It's not there in my copy. What version of the manga are you going from?

At the end of the previous chapter, Vegeta says, "why don't you transform and show us what you really are?" though. Another hint.

I'm talking about 3 diferent and independent versions of the manga, the english one, the castillian one and the catalan one.

At chapter 296, in the first page, vegeta talks about the different transformations that some species can do (to increase its power or to camouflage) but freeza says "in my case is different, I have so much strength that not even I can fully control it".
So he transforms to weaker forms to have a better control of his energy.

That's what I said in my second post.

No, I'm talking about the part that freezer is still at his 4th form (the 1st we see).
You were talking about when he was in that alien form and he said he would transform into his true form.

But what is really important is that freezer's first form, or his real form, is the last we see.

Regards.

[Bussani]

That's what I said in my second post.

No, I'm talking about the part that freezer is still at his 4th form (the 1st we see).
You were talking about when he was in that alien form and he said he would transform into his true form.

But what is really important is that freezer's first form, or his real form, is the last we see.

Regards.

I'll point out again that I did mention it in my second post;

Especially since in the conversation you mentioned, Vegeta talked about beings transforming for camouflage or to conserve power, which also implies that Freeza downgraded himself.

but since we're in agreement I guess that's all that matters.

[freezamite]

That's what I said in my second post.

No, I'm talking about the part that freezer is still at his 4th form (the 1st we see).
You were talking about when he was in that alien form and he said he would transform into his true form.

But what is really important is that freezer's first form, or his real form, is the last we see.

Regards.

I'll point out again that I did mention it in my second post;

Especially since in the conversation you mentioned, Vegeta talked about beings transforming for camouflage or to conserve power, which also implies that Freeza downgraded himself.

but since we're in agreement I guess that's all that matters.

Oks, I forgot that part.

Now that this point has been solved, what about the other point, where I say that mecha freeza is weaker than the original one?

[Bussani]

Now that this point has been solved, what about the other point, where I say that mecha freeza is weaker than the original one?

I'm not sure about that one. Freeza says that he's become stronger and the Daizenshuu agrees. The Daizenshuu may not have been written exclusively by Toriyama, but he did approve a lot of the information, I believe.

Besides that, I don't think he wrote it with the intention of us thinking about it this much. Freeza said he was stronger, Gohan said he wasn't powered up to full yet, so the simplest explanation would seem to be that he just hadn't gotten serious yet. As Kaboom said, it took him a long time to build up to 100% on Namek, so it's possible that he didn't get a chance to bring his full strength out. But even if he did, according to the Daizenshuu his power hadn't increased enough to put him on completely even footing with a standard Super Saiyajin. I think he was being his usual overconfident self.

Edit: Actually, I don't see a battle power for Mecha Freeza in the Daizenshuu listing after all. It must have been a fan made number I was remembering.

[freezamite]

Now that this point has been solved, what about the other point, where I say that mecha freeza is weaker than the original one?

I'm not sure about that one. Freeza says that he's become stronger and the Daizenshuu agrees. The Daizenshuu may not have been written exclusively by Toriyama, but he did approve a lot of the information, I believe.

Besides that, I don't think he wrote it with the intention of us thinking about it this much. Freeza said he was stronger, Gohan said he wasn't powered up to full yet, so the simplest explanation would seem to be that he just hadn't gotten serious yet. As Kaboom said, it took him a long time to build up to 100% on Namek, so it's possible that he didn't get a chance to bring his full strength out. But even if he did, according to the Daizenshuu his power hadn't increased enough to put him on completely even footing with a standard Super Saiyajin. I think he was being his usual overconfident self.

Oks, to explain why I think mecha freeza was much weaker than the original one, I would need to make you a really long explanation that I don't have time to do for now and I plan to do in my other post.
I think it is better to left this debate for later, after I explain myself in the other post, in order to expedite the discussion.

Regards.

[Bussani]

Okie dokie.

[Smooth Criminal]

freezamite's argument has some merit.

As he stated, Freeza mentions to Goku during their fight that the only other one who could put a scratch on him was his father. Further, he declared himself the "greatest in the universe," meaning that they DID fight or scuffle or whatever at some point, and Freeza was determined the more powerful of the two.

When Cold and Mecha Freeza arrive on earth, the Z Fighters note the ki of Freeza, along with another ki, which is even larger (referring to Cold).

How could Freeza declare himself the strongest in the universe, if Cold's ki is stated to be more powerful when they arrive together on earth? Well, he could have been flat out lying, OR, his transformation into a Mecha form indeed did leave him weaker.

Further, when Freeza launches his ball attack against Trunks, he clearly puts everything he has into it-- Trunks allows it. He is fully intending to destroy the planet in one shot (without holding back like he did on Namek), even saying to Cold that they can still kill Goku in space later.

I think this point makes a whole lot of sense to me. Technically, only a third of Freeza's body remains. How could hunks of metal and junk make him even more powerful? This isn't nearly as sophisticated as the androids-- it literally looks like they stopped at a junkyard and ripped pieces of shit off of old beat-down cars. His statement upon arrival as being even more powerful is likely no more than an appeal to his own ego.

I think there is enough evidence to conclude that Mecha Freeza is less powerful than 100 percent Freeza on Namek.

[Bussani]

Freeza trying to blow up the Earth with a Death Ball was filler. And even if it wasn't, Freeza didn't have to power up to 100% to create the one that destroyed Namek.

Also, I can't see anyone saying that Cold was stronger in the manga, only that there was someone with Freeza and he was really strong too. If I'm missing something, could someone tell me the page it's on?