New Unit Power List !!! What do you think about that one?

[Herms]

The power of the base state of a sayan comes to a limit that once reached, one does not progress for much that he trains. Vegetat comes to this condition before the appearance of the androids 19 and 20, he explains that himself when he transformed in ssj and then we see it in the saga bu with a couple of pages dedicated to goku's training.

If they do reach this limit, why is Goku training in his regular form before the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai?

The limit of goku in his base condition is about 300.000 units, vegeta's limit is around 1.500.000 units, it is not said, but it is deduced easily from the manga series.

How so?

[teotihuacan]

SSJ goku is 150,000,000. freeza is 120,000,000 (100%)

Impossible, with a difference of 10% you can destroy your enemy without any fear of being defeat.

so you're saying the daizenshuu is wrong? eat shit.

[Forgotten Hero]

This is why power levels suck. People make up numbers that are wrong, and try to use logic that makes no sense. Use your math all you want, but this is Toriyama's world and one can never know how he would right his story, his power levels.

[Herms]

The thing is, even in the series battle powers aren't really shown as being very reliable. Again and again, a character is shown to "trust their scouter too much" and dies because of it. Look at the battle with Raditz, the Saibaimen, the Warrior-type Namekians vs. Freeza's mooks, Goku vs. Recoome, Vegeta vs. Jheese, and finally the Mecha Freeza mooks vs. Trunks. Vegeta was quick to figure out that relying on the scouter's numbers was no good, and that sensing a person's ki was far superior. Despite the fact that many of the people who make battle power lists have a particulary high regard for Vegeta, for some reason they don't follow his example in this.

[Forgotten Hero]

Snip.

Goku vs. Ginyu. The list goes on and on. Ginyu, like Vegeta, knows at times the scouter can be useless.

[freezamite]

It is said and has been confirmed (by the author) that SSJ multiplies the base power by 50. (unless I`m very mistaken)
That alone destroys your theory.

And your theory that states that 10% more power is enough to completly destroy the opponent with ease has many flaws.

Let me demonstrate with this example: The Goku and Vegeta fight during the sayan saga.

We know that Vegeta was 18 000 at the time. But we also know that Goku reached at least 21 000 while using Kaioken X 3.
Did he destroy Vegeta? No.

He later used kaioken x 4 which made him even more powerfull.
Did he destroy Vegeta? No.

Conclusion:

Battle power is only a indication. Fights are more than numbers. We can not conclude that 10% more power is enough to destroy an opponent with ease. Like it was stated in the series, battle power is a flawed system and not that accurate. It only serves as an indication.

So, this claim, "SSJ goku is 150,000,000. freeza is 120,000,000 (100%)" is very possible and likely given what we already know from the series (that second form freeza was over a million) and that SSJ multiplies the base power by 50.

No, goku is 21.000 using kaioh ken x3, and while he is using it, he is faaar superior to vegeta.
The problem that goku had in that fight is that kaioh ken x3 was too much for him.
Kaioh ken x3 only gave goku 21.000 theorically but since he couldn't controll it, even without taking any hit from vegeta, his body was being destroyed by the kaioh ken itself.

When goku uses Kaioh ken x4 he is not at his 100%, he had lost a lot of energy. In fact, I think he was stronger when he used the kaioh ken x3 for first time than when he uses the kaioh ken x 4.

Power battle is what is most important, then you can beat your enemy using techniques like the kienzan, but in a normal battle with 10% more energy you are absolutely superior.

And finally, it is never said on the manga that the SSJ multiplies your strength by 50, this was the Daizenshuu estimation and I consider it to be wrong.

so you're saying the daizenshuu is wrong? eat shit.

Yes, I'm saying the daizenshuu is wrong. If you are stupid enough to put the daizenshuu (wich wasn't made by toriyama) at the same level or even in a higher level of reliability than the manga itself, then I can only say one thing, eat shit.

On the manga, raditz had a power of 1200, daizenshuu said that he had a power of 1500. Do you really think that Daizenshuu has more reliability than a simple filler of the anime? It is an official product, but this doesn't mean it is perfect or that it doesn't have any error.

Goku vs. Ginyu. The list goes on and on. Ginyu, like Vegeta, knows at times the scouter can be useless.

What Ginyu says is that the scouter can fool you because there exists people who can modify their energy levels, but this doesn't mean that the scouter is useless.
In fact, when goku uses kaioh ken x2 and his power reaches 180.000 units, Ginyu admits his absolutely sure defeat and changes his strategy, instead of fighting against goku he steal goku's body in ordrer to increase his power.

Scoutter is useless if the enemy is hidding part of his power, because the scoutter only takes in account the power that is being used at that moment, but when the enemy is full strength the figure that appears on the scoutter is 100% reliable.

[Herms]

No, goku is 21.000 using kaioh ken x3, and while he is using that he is faaar superior to vegeta.

Goku is at 24,000 when he uses Kaio-Ken x3, it's just that Bulma's scouter breaks as his battle power passes 21,000 (it's clear from the scene that his battle power is still rising). Kaio-Ken multiplies Goku's battle power according to the number of grade it is. Regular Kaio-ken (which is apparently one and the same as Kaio-ken x2) is stated by the narrator to double Goku's battle power, and Tenshinhan says during the battle with Freeza that Kaio-ken x10 makes Goku ten times stronger. So if Goku is at 8,000 normally when he confronts Vegeta, while using Kaio-ken x2 he is at 16,000, and at Kaio-ken x3 he is at 24,000.

On the manga, raditz had a power of 1200, daizenshuu said that he had a power of 1500.

What was said that the Saibaiman, with a battle power of 1,200, had enough power to rival Raditz, not that the two were even. Toriyama even wrote in his memo to the anime staff on the Saibaimen that the Saibaiman had battle power inferior to Radtiz's. Granted, going by your 10% rule 1,500 is too high for 1,200 to rival it, but then your 10% isn't stated anywhere in the manga. And as shown when comparing Kaio-ken x3 Goku (at 24,000) vs. Vegeta (at 18,000) to Vegeta (at 24,000) vs. Dodoria (at more than 18,000), there's no real consistency throughout the story to how much differences in battle power will matter. They're just numbers tossed out by Toriyama with not too much thought given to them.

Do you really think that Daizenshuu has more reliability than a simple filler of the anime? It is an official product, but this doesn't mean it is perfect or that it doesn't have any error.

True, but it's still infinitly more authoritative than numbers made up by fans. I mean, you've got 100% full power Freeza at 12,000,000. That just ultimately comes from Greg Werner's mistranslation of Daizenshuu 7's battle power chart, where he mistakenly translated 100% full power Freeza as being 12 million rather than 120 million. There's nothing in the manga at all saying Freeza was 12 million.

[freezamite]

No, goku is 21.000 using kaioh ken x3, and while he is using that he is faaar superior to vegeta.

Goku is at 24,000 when he uses Kaio-Ken x3, it's just that Bulma's scouter breaks as his battle power passes 21,000 (it's clear from the scene that his battle power is still rising). Kaio-Ken multiplies Goku's battle power according to the number of grade it is. Regular Kaio-ken (which is apparently one and the same as Kaio-ken x2) is stated by the narrator to double Goku's battle power, and Tenshinhan says during the battle with Freeza that Kaio-ken x10 makes Goku ten times stronger. So if Goku is at 8,000 normally when he confronts Vegeta, while using Kaio-ken x2 he is at 16,000, and at Kaio-ken x3 he is at 24,000.

Yes, you're right here. The Scoutter breaks at 21.000, but goku's power was still rising.
But, I will say it again, kaioh ken x 3 was too much for goku.
And i will say you more, goku was not at his 100% when he used kaioh ken x3, so his power wasn't 24.000, it was more than 21.000 but it is impossible that he could be at 24.000 because he was around 8.000 (and under 9.000 for sure) and he recived some damage from vegeta.
In fact, when vegeta uses his full strength with goku, he has a power of 18.000, and in that part goku uses kaioh ken x2, that gives him a power of 16.000, and he is still no match for a vegeta that is playing with him.

What was said that the Saibaiman, with a battle power of 1,200, had enough power to rival Raditz, not that the two were even. Toriyama even wrote in his memo to the anime staff on the Saibaimen that the Saibaiman had battle power inferior to Radtiz's. Granted, going by your 10% rule 1,500 is too high for 1,200 to rival it, but then your 10% isn't stated anywhere in the manga. And as shown when comparing Kaio-ken x3 Goku (at 24,000) vs. Vegeta (at 18,000) to Vegeta (at 24,000) vs. Dodoria (at more than 18,000), there's no real consistency throughout the story to how much differences in battle power will matter. They're just numbers tossed out by Toriyama with not too much thought given to them.

No, 1500 is too much. Piccolo, with an attack of 1330 units would have been able to kill raditz if he didn't evaded the attack, and gohan, with a simple hit with 1307 units, left raditz so injured that his power dropped at the same level than the goku's one, and goku was already injured (so gohan nearly kills raditz with one single hit, and he had that 10% more of energy).
The problem in what you say is that you don't consider the injuries of the fighters, you think that when goku uses kaioh ken x 4 he has a power of 32.000, because you don't take in account that when he used its kaioh ken x 4 he was already injured and he had lost most of his energy.

And I would say even more, there is no match on the manga with a constatated difference of energy superior to that 10% between the two fighters in wich the weaker one could be a difficult oponent for the stronger one.

True, but it's still infinitly more authoritative than numbers made up by fans. I mean, you've got 100% full power Freeza at 12,000,000. That just ultimately comes from Greg Werner's mistranslation of Daizenshuu 7's battle power chart, where he mistakenly translated 100% full power Freeza as being 12 million rather than 120 million. There's nothing in the manga at all saying Freeza was 12 million.

You're right, the daizenshuu is, at this time, more reliable than me, but this is because I still have to explain you from where I deduced this numbers.
I can justify this 12.000.000 of full power freeza with the manga in my hands, believe me, and I'm not based on that minstraslation because this mistranslation also said that goku SSJ was 15.000.000, and I disagree with that.

In fact, I can not assure that an hypothetical freeza with no injuries at his 100% would be exactly 12.000.000, but I can assure you that the numbers that are on my list don't contradict the manga in any point.
In fact, I made this list because the other ones I had read contradict the manga again and again, and this list doesn't, as you will see tonight or tomorrow when I explain myself.

For now, I prefer to discuss that points to make sure everybody that reads my explanation could understand it without any problems.

Regards.

[Herms]

The problem in what you say is that you don't consider the injuries of the fighters, you think that when goku uses kaioh ken x 4 he has a power of 32.000, because you don't take in account that when he used its kaioh ken x 4 he was already injured and he had lost most of his energy.

Is it ever stated the injuries lower battle power?

[freezamite]

The problem in what you say is that you don't consider the injuries of the fighters, you think that when goku uses kaioh ken x 4 he has a power of 32.000, because you don't take in account that when he used its kaioh ken x 4 he was already injured and he had lost most of his energy.

Is it ever stated the injuries lower battle power?

Yes, absolutely, in every fight of dragon ball.
After raditz is injured by gohan, goku has enough power to freeze him while piccolo is concentrating his power.
Vegeta is another proof of what I say, when injured by goku and the genkidama, even yajirobai can have a little fight with him.
And it is clearly said during the match against king piccolo, or even during the macth between piccolo jr. and goku.
It is also said at the match between cell and goku.

The more injuried and tired you are, the less power you have.

If they do reach this limit, why is Goku training in his regular form before the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai?

This is a very interesting question. What I said is that once the limit is reached, the power can't be increased, but this doesn't mean that you can't make any improvement in form of new techniques or having a better control of the power you have.

[Herms]

Yes, absolutely, in every fight of dragon ball.
After raditz is injured by gohan, goku has enough power to freeze him while piccolo is concentrating his power.
Vegeta is another proof of what I say, when injured by goku and the genkidama, even yajirobai can have a little fight with him.
And it is clearly said during the match against king piccolo, or even during the macth between piccolo jr. and goku.
It is also said at the match between cell and goku.

What I mean is it ever shown that the numbers shown on scouters go down with regular injuries? I know they go down when someone is killed or on the brink of death, but other than that I don't remember it being said. Freeza says that Nail's battle power goes down when he regenerates his arm, but that's certainly not injuring himself.

[teotihuacan]

so you're saying the daizenshuu is wrong? eat shit.

Yes, I'm saying the daizenshuu is wrong. If you are stupid enough to put the daizenshuu (wich wasn't made by toriyama) at the same level or even in a higher level of reliability than the manga itself, then I can only say one thing, eat shit.

On the manga, raditz had a power of 1200, daizenshuu said that he had a power of 1500. Do you really think that Daizenshuu has more reliability than a simple filler of the anime? It is an official product, but this doesn't mean it is perfect or that it doesn't have any error.

let's put it this way. raditz's battle power in the manga is 1200, but in the daizenshuu its 1500. alright, that's a mistake. but don't you think its a little absurd for goku and freeza to have "mistaken battle powers of 150,000,000 and 120,000,000" if their battle powers are in fact only a few million? how does toriyama's staff go from screwing up a BP by 300 points to screwing one up by over 100,000,000? c'mon.

[rereboy]

...

Goku hit Vegeta with a kamehameha powered by kaioken x 4 which would make him with a power level of more than 30 000 units ( around 8 000 at normal, around 16 000 with kaioken x2, around 24 000 with kaioken x3 and around 32 000 with kaioken x 4).

Even if we consider that goku was being hurt by the kaioken, like you said, what matters is the Battle power. And regardless of Goku being hurt, with kaioken x4 he would always have a battle power of around 30 000 or 32 000 units.
When goku uses kaioken beyong the safe limits, he hurts his body, but during the moment of attack, his ki or battle power multiplies without doubt. It only lasts a few moments, but during those moments he is that strong. There is no doubt about that. If your 10% rule was all that mattered and hard science, Goku would have killed Vegeta with those attacks.
Remember that Vegeta killed Kiwi and Dodoria with attacks that only lasted a few moments. And Goku`s kaioken x4 would make him have a even higher battle power than Vegeta when he arrived at Namek (24 000).

Goku used that power to hit Vegeta with a kamehameha head on. According to your rule of 10% more power, the sheer power of that kamehameha would have destroyed Vegeta since Goku had almost twice the Battle power of Vegeta.

But it didn`t.

So, like I said, the battle power system is a very flawed system. It only serves as a indication. We can not apply simple math to it, because power in Dragon Ball can not be reduced to simple numbers. He can not apply hard math rules to it.

[freezamite]

...

Goku hit Vegeta with a kamehameha powered by kaioken x 4 which would make him with a power level of more than 30 000 units ( around 8 000 at normal, around 16 000 with kaioken x2, around 24 000 with kaioken x3 and around 32 000 with kaioken x 4).

Even if we consider that goku was being hurt by the kaioken, like you said, what matters is the Battle power. And regardless of Goku being hurt, with kaioken x4 he would always have a battle power of around 30 000 or 32 000 units.

And he used that power to hit Vegeta with a kamehameha head on. According to your rule of 10% more power, the sheer power of that kamehameha would have destroyed Vegeta since Goku had almost twice the Battle power of Vegeta.

But it didn`t.

So, like I said, the battle power system is a very flawed system. It only serves as a indication. We can not apply simple math to it, because power in Dragon Ball can not be reduced to simple numbers.

No, this is not true.
Kaioh ken multiplies your CURRENT POWER. When goku uses kaioh ken x 4 hadn't got a power of 8000, it was 8000 before the fight.

Read the manga of DB and you will see that in ALL THE FIGHTS, as the fighters get injured or tired, their power decreases.
And this is very easy to proof.
When goku used kaioh ken x3 for the first time, he was stronger than vegeta.
But the second time he uses kaioh ken x3, he has a battle power similar to the one of vegeta (because he had lost a lot of his energy using kaioh ken x 3) and needs to use kaioh ken x 4 to surpass vegeta.

Look, units in the fight with vegeta could be similar to those:
Goku: 8.000
Vegeta: 18.000
Goku kaioh ken x 2: 16.000
Goku injured after vegeta's demonstration of power: 7.300
Goku kaioh ken x3: 21.900
Vegeta injured after being owned by goku kaioh ken x3: 12.000
Goku after kaioh ken x3: 3.500
Goku after kaioh ken x4: 1.000
Vegeta after being owned by goku kaioh ken x4: 8.000

This is how it works in DB.
I don't say this units are 100% reliable because I had done this list in 5 minutes only to put it as an example of what I am trying to explain.

but don't you think its a little absurd for goku and freeza to have "mistaken battle powers of 150,000,000 and 120,000,000" if their battle powers are in fact only a few million? how does toriyama's staff go from screwing up a BP by 300 points to screwing one up by over 100,000,000? c'mon.

Very easy, they make the same mistake that is done on the anime series.
Goku whas using kaioh ken x 10 since the begining of the match, not only since kaioh tells it to us.
This is why they say that goku has 3.000.000 at the start of the fight, and that freeza has 60.000.000 at 50%, but it doesn't have any sense.

Goku was around 300.000 and he was fighting using kaioh ken x10, this is how he could fight against freeza who was using around 25% (maybe a little more) of his total power.

[jjgp1112]

Yes, people's power levels do drop whenever somebody gets injured. Gohan lost over half of his power when Cell injured him.

HOWEVER, the Kaioken doesn't injure you, it just wares your body out, Goku still had all of his power, he was just exhausted. The reason why Vegeta's Gallick Gun was equal was because Vegeta snapped and possibly putting out even more power than before, so Goku had to use the Kaioken x4. Again, Power Levels really aren't reliable by the Frieza saga, which is why they're usually loked down upon.

[rereboy]

I added a few things to my last post.

Btw, even if consider those lasts levels that you wrote (Goku kaioh ken x3: 21.900), there is a difference of almost 18% power between 18000 and 21900.

Thats more than the difference between 24000 (Vegeta at namek) and 20000 (if we consider dodoria to be at 20 000) which is almost 17%.

Why then didn`t Goku kill Vegeta with a blow or two or a ki blast?

And even if you say that Goku was less than 21 900, he was over 21000 at least. The manga says so.

Why? Because we can not aplly math rules to battle powers.

Besides, the author said that SSJ multiples the power by 50. He even said that he planned to be a smaller increase, but it ended up being 50. There was a thread about that.

In conclusion:

This is what happens when people try to make battle powers follow hard math rules. There will be inconsistencies.

They only serve as a indication. That`s what I think the author had in mind.

He just tried to create a great story with great action, and for a while, he created a system to serve as a guideline to shows us the power of some warriors and who was stronger than who. He didn´t bother to check if those levels followed math rules. Thats not his style. He even implied in the manga that that system was flawed.

The system follows logic. But not math rules or hard and flawless logic. Just basic and common logic. If we look too hard into it there will be inconsistencies.

[freezamite]

Yes, people's power levels do drop whenever somebody gets injured. Gohan lost over half of his power when Cell injured him.

HOWEVER, the Kaioken doesn't injure you, it just wares your body out, Goku still had all of his power, he was just exhausted. The reason why Vegeta's Gallick Gun was equal was because Vegeta snapped and possibly putting out even more power than before, so Goku had to use the Kaioken x4. Again, Power Levels really aren't reliable by the Freeza saga, which is why they're usually loked down upon.

No, kaioh ken when used in a level that you don't control (like kaioh ken x3 used by goku or kaioh ken x4) hurts your body like if you had been injured by an enemy.

Look at the fight against freeza, after goku uses kaioh ken x 20 his energy was absolutely decreased.
Or look at the chapter 232, look at goku after using his kaioh ken x4 and tell me he has the same energy he had before using it.

I added a few things to my last post.

Btw, even if consider those lasts levels that you wrote (Goku kaioh ken x3: 21.900), there is a difference of almost 18% power between 18000 and 21900.

Thats more than the difference between 24000 (Vegeta at namek) and 20000 (if we consider dodoria to be at 20 000) which is 17%.

Why then didn`t Goku kill Vegeta with a blow or two or a ki blast?

And even if you say that Goku was less than 21 900, he was over 21000 at least. The manga says so.

Why? Because we can not aplly math rules to battle powers.

Besides, the author said that SSJ multiples the power by 50. He even said that he planned to be a smaller increase, but it ended up being 50. There was a thread about that.

Yes, it is.
And let me explain that again, kaioh ken used at levels that you can't controll destrois your body progressively, wich means that goku had that power of 21.900 ONLY the concrete instant he started to use kaioh ken x3.
Then, he was loosing and auto-injuring his own body every second that passed.

Look at the fight against vegeta, when goku starts with his kaioh ken x3 vegeta can't react to goku's attacks, but as the fight goes on vegeta starts to recover and even can react to the lasts hits of goku.

But what matters isn't if goku kills vegeta or not, what matter is that he is absolutely superior to vegeta.
In dragon ball there are character that can resist the damage better than others, and this is independent of their energy level.
Nappa for example was very resistant, and so was vegeta.

But one thing is what you can resist, and the one that I'm talking about is if you can be a dangerous oponent with having 10% less power, and the response to that is NO.

PS: My list don't pretend to be exact, only approximate to what the author of the series wanted to explain when he draw DB.
Freeza with 150.000.000, Gokus SSJ with 150.000.000, the androids 17 & 18 with more than 300.000.000...
This is not what toriyama had in mind, and I will prove it in a few hours with the manga on my hands.

In fact, my next post will be the demonstration of what I'm saying.

[rereboy]

I added a few things to my last post as well.

In response to your last post...

A kaioken attack only lasts an istant. Remember that these fighters are so fast that humans can hardly see them when they fight.
The whole kaioken x3 attack probably only lasted a second or two. There is no evidence in the manga that Goku`s power decreased during the attack at all. Only after did he show signs of weakeness. While in kaioken x2 those signs didn`t appear at all. So, there is nothing to suggest that his power goes down or that he is injured during the attack itself. Only when the attack is done and he stops, we see goku noticing that the kaioken x3 took a lot out of him.

Also, by saying that when a fighter is very resistant, the fight is different, you are agreeing with me in saying that battle power is not all that matters and that a fight can not be reduced to just battle power numbers.
By admitting that, you are addmiting that the 10% rule is not that absolute because there are other factors in play.

A fighter could have 10% more power than another fighter, but if the other fighter is way more resistant, faster and is a lot better at conserving his evergy as time passes by, then we can not immediatly say that the fighter with 10% more power will win that easily. He can even lose for all we know. That means that battle power is not that reliable because there are other factors, and makes the 10% rule inadequate.

Besides, by addmiting that resistance plays an important part, we can say as well, that Freeza was very, very resistant. He survived a giant genki dama, had his lower body removed, suffered the explosion of a planet, and still he survived.
Then, a difference in battle power of 20% between and SSJ Goku doesn´t seem that unlikely because Goku had the upper hand all the fight. Freeza wasn`t really a danger to him after he transformed.

So Freeza being 120 000 000 and Goku 150 000 000 is not that unlikely, since the diference is 20%.

But, I will say it again... Trying to reduce this to math rules wont ever work (read my conclusion in my last post).

There are other factors. Besides the system itself isn`t that reliable within the story of dragon ball like Vegeta soon realised. Besides even that, the author wasn`t that concerned in making math rules or hard rules to the battle powers like we can easily conclude by the series.

[Son Wukong]

Do you really think that Daizenshuu has more reliability than a simple filler of the anime?

I don't know. Would exclusive interviews with Mr.Toriyama be considered as filler?

[freezamite]

Also, by saying that when a fighter is very resistant, the fight is different, you are agreeing with me in saying that battle power is not all that matters and that a fight can not be reduced to just battle power numbers.
By admitting that, you are addmiting that the 10% rule is not that absolute because there are other factors in play.

In fact, what I said is that with an advantage of 10% you can beat the enemy, and this happens even if he is resistant or not.
Obviously, then there are other factors like if you can maintain this 10% of advantage all the time you want or it is only temporal or if your opponent is more resistant than normal.

But what is completely true is that with a difference of 10% you beat your opponent.

Then, the difference between goku SSJ and freeza 100% shown on the daizenshuu contradicts the manga, because it isn't only that freeza can resists many punches from goku, he can inflict several damages to goku SSJ and freeza even can surpass goku SSJ's kamehameha.