SSJ Gohan vs Cell

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun May 31, 2009 7:07 pm

Just a quick question since I leant this book to a friend:

Do we actually see any serious fighting between Gohan and Cell prior to SSJ2? If not, it makes sense for Gohan to be just SSJ and go toe-to-toe against Dabura, even if he was weaker than Cell Games Gohan.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sun May 31, 2009 8:23 pm

Dayspring wrote:Just a quick question since I leant this book to a friend:

Do we actually see any serious fighting between Gohan and Cell prior to SSJ2? If not, it makes sense for Gohan to be just SSJ and go toe-to-toe against Dabura, even if he was weaker than Cell Games Gohan.

If you are talking about the manga, Son Gohan does some fighting that impressed the others but it was not on the level of the Dabra fight. At the end of the day Cell was still holding back even in that battle.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun May 31, 2009 8:23 pm

He has a brief scuffle with Cell. He does about as well as Goku did...well, maybe not quite as well. But he was supposed to be stronger than Goku at this point. Cell was holding back against Goku, though, so he may have gotten more serious when he saw how good Gohan was. Gohan mainly started 'losing' because he didn't want to fight.

So yeah, him at SSJ against Dabura could have been plausible, assuming Dabura wasn't as strong as Cell ever got I guess. Then again...it's really hard to compare. If SSJ2 is only double SSJ, then was Gohan ever actually fighting Cell at his full power when he was SSJ? He could have been subconsciously holding back the whole time, considering how much power he still seemed to have for that final kamehameha.

By the way, I hate to drag out the whole "was he SSJ or SSJ2" discussion, but I still think it could go either way. He didn't have the lightning, but if you look carefully, his hair was constantly drawn SSJ2 style. It's only a very subtle difference, mainly noticeable in the fringe (one thin and jagged spike of hair hanging down instead of 2 thick ones). Could it be that an assistant was meant to draw the lightning and forgot? Someone really needs to ask Mr Toriyama someday.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sun May 31, 2009 8:27 pm

Did not Herms state that the Daizenshuu said Son Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra?

Wojak · Post by **Wojak** » Sun May 31, 2009 8:33 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:Did not Herms state that the Daizenshuu said Son Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra?

Yes, the Daizenshuu states that.
But you can interpret the manga in any way you want, find any proof, and come with any conclusion.

The Dauzenshuu says: Gohan was Super Saiya-jin 2.

The Manga says: Gohan was/wasn't Super Saiya-jin 2.

Let's not have this discussion again people. Please.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun May 31, 2009 8:48 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:Did not Herms state that the Daizenshuu said Son Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra?

Exactly. There's evidence both ways. Everyone comes to their own conclusion, but I think both sides have enough evidence that we can't say for sure until Toriyama actually tells us. So as Wojak says, there isn't a lot of point discussing it all over again.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:56 pm

So yeah, him at SSJ against Dabura could have been plausible, assuming Dabura wasn't as strong as Cell ever got I guess. Then again...it's really hard to compare. If SSJ2 is only double SSJ, then was Gohan ever actually fighting Cell at his full power when he was SSJ? He could have been subconsciously holding back the whole time, considering how much power he still seemed to have for that final kamehameha.

I've come to the idea that Gohan's anger didn't just push him to SSJ2 but also had its normal effect of shooting up his power. So if his SSJ had been 100 his SSJ2 would have been 200 and his anger could have put him up anywhere from 250 to 500. Then his mental block after taking Cell's blast saving Vegeta locked up some of that power again (for the less than half comment) but in reality he lost less than 20% of his power.

My two cents.

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece · Post by **Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:00 am

They do nothing major.

Cell gets in five hits and a hold, Gohan gets in one hit. That isn't counting the three or so attacks that Gohan dodges (Gohan attacks Cell once, a kick to the face, and lands it).

Gohan spends the rest of the battle whimpering like a useless bitch as everyone get their asses handed to them.

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:12 pm

Son Gohan didn't do much against Cell in their fight apart from defending. He landed one kick on Cell's face, but for the rest of the fight he was getting his ass handed to him because he didn't want to fight. Gohan was implied to be stronger than Goku at this time.

As for the Dabra fight...

There's been so much debate on that stuff I don't even want to get involved. Daizenshuu says Gohan was a SSJ2, manga uses visual evidence to show that Gohan wa a regular Super Saiyan. I personally think Gohan was a regular Super Saiyan and that Dabra was around the same power level as Perfect Cell when he fought SSJ Goku & SSJ Gohan. But like Vegeta mentioned, Gohan shouldn't have had that much trouble with Dabra and that he was stronger when he was a kid. So we are led to think that SSJ Gohan at the Cell Games is stronger than Dabra - by a good deal as well.

And what's this about SSJ2 being double the power of SSJ?

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:18 pm

Wojak wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote:Did not Herms state that the Daizenshuu said Son Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra?
Yes, the Daizenshuu states that.
But you can interpret the manga in any way you want, find any proof, and come with any conclusion.

The Dauzenshuu says: Gohan was Super Saiya-jin 2.

The Manga says: Gohan was/wasn't Super Saiya-jin 2.

Let's not have this discussion again people. Please.

I think that was a mistake in the manga and anime and the Daizenshuu straightened the matter out but as always what does the Daizenshuu know?

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece · Post by **Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:40 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:But like Vegeta mentioned, Gohan shouldn't have had that much trouble with Dabra and that he was stronger when he was a kid.

Didn't he say the exact opposite? He says something to Goku mentioning that Gohan was weaker than when he fought Cell.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:44 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:I think that was a mistake in the manga and anime and the Daizenshuu straightened the matter out but as always what does the Daizenshuu know?

I doubt it. As I turn the page, I see Goku and Vegeta with the aura clearly, while Gohan is just a regular Super Saiyan. If he had electric in his aura against Kibito, but lacked it completely against Dabra and Majin Boo--he was only a Super Saiyan.

There's also too much going against him being a Super Saiyan 2.

Wojak · Post by **Wojak** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:56 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
Wojak wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote:Did not Herms state that the Daizenshuu said Son Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra?
Yes, the Daizenshuu states that.
But you can interpret the manga in any way you want, find any proof, and come with any conclusion.

The Dauzenshuu says: Gohan was Super Saiya-jin 2.

The Manga says: Gohan was/wasn't Super Saiya-jin 2.

Let's not have this discussion again people. Please.
I think that was a mistake in the manga and anime and the Daizenshuu straightened the matter out but as always what does the Daizenshuu know?

I tired to make a point that was in favor of both of the parts: the Daizenshuu believers and the manga/anime believers, but you ended up being an ass about it, so here goes my rebuttal.

Well, for sure, it the Daizenshuu doesn't know more than the established facts from it's source, the manga.
And then it can add whatever it wants.
Just because of that it's "corrected" later, doesn't mean it's true.
When you compare facts, it's the source that's always considered the highest.

Plus, you are claiming that both the manga and anime were faulty, whilst it's clear that the odds are 2:1 that the Daizenshuu is wrong.
That's how facts are tried out as wrong or right in the actual world.
If there are reports saying that chips give you/don't give you cancer, and they are at the same level scientifically, and 4 of them say it's true, and 2 of them say it's not, it's all in favor of the reports that say it's true.

So, by going by my education in these matters, I conclude that the Daizenshuu is wrong, and someone's fanwanking of the Daizenshuu won't make me change my mind, and treating a post in the way that you did just gave you the idiot stamp.

I tried to be fair to everyone, and that was what I got from you.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:44 pm

Wojak wrote: I tired to make a point that was in favor of both of the parts: the Daizenshuu believers and the manga/anime believers, but you ended up being an ass about it, so here goes my rebuttal.

Well, for sure, it the Daizenshuu doesn't know more than the established facts from it's source, the manga.
And then it can add whatever it wants.
Just because of that it's "corrected" later, doesn't mean it's true.
When you compare facts, it's the source that's always considered the highest.

Plus, you are claiming that both the manga and anime were faulty, whilst it's clear that the odds are 2:1 that the Daizenshuu is wrong.
That's how facts are tried out as wrong or right in the actual world.
If there are reports saying that chips give you/don't give you cancer, and they are at the same level scientifically, and 4 of them say it's true, and 2 of them say it's not, it's all in favor of the reports that say it's true.

So, by going by my education in these matters, I conclude that the Daizenshuu is wrong, and someone's fanwanking of the Daizenshuu won't make me change my mind, and treating a post in the way that you did just gave you the idiot stamp.

I tried to be fair to everyone, and that was what I got from you.

It`s not that simple at all. Let me demonstrate my point.

This is SSJ 1 Gohan hairstyle and appearance (vol 36 chap 6): (these manga images are mirrowed I think, but they are enough to allow me to demonstrate my point)

And this is SSJ2 Gohan hairstyle and appearance (vol 37 chap 12):

Please notice the differences in hairstyle.

SSJ2 Gohan`s hair is much more "spiked" and instead of having two strands over his forehead like in SSJ 1, it only has one strand of hair.

If you check your manga you will notice that, before Gohan fights Dabura and after Cell, everytime Gohan transforms into a SSj 1, he has that exact hairstyle. However, when he transforms into a SSJ 2 his hair style changes as shown.

Now lets look at the Gohan/Dabura fight (vol 38 chap 10):

As you can see, Gohan`s hair seems to be drawn in SSJ2 style. However it appears that there is no lightning.

Therefore, if his hair is indeed drawn in SSJ 2 style which appears to be, and I think there is, there must be a mistake in the manga.

Either Gohan was supposed to be a SSJ 2 during this fight but no lightning was drawn, or Gohan was supposed to be a SSJ 1 and therefore his hair should have been drawn in SSJ 1 style.

In conclusion:

Personally, I believe in the Daizenshuu. But anyone can think whatever they want since there clearly is room for interpretation.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:01 pm

You neglected to post when Gohan went Super Saiyan as Videl was being stomped. He had the same Super Saiyan 2 hair; just like how Gohan had that hair when he unleashed the Z-sword. Hair isn't an indication of anything.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:01 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:You neglected to post when Gohan went Super Saiyan as Videl was being stomped. He had the same Super Saiyan 2 hair; just like how Gohan had that hair when he unleashed the Z-sword. Hair isn't an indication of anything.

No. Hair isn`t a proof of anything. But an indication? Yes, it is.

Just look at Gohan`s SSJ 1 hair and Gohan`s SSJ 2 hair when he was fighting Cell. It`s clearly different.

And if the hair changed with the transformation when Gohan was fighting Cell, then SSJ 2`s hair is meant to be different from SSJ 1`s hair. Even Goku`s SSJ 2 hair is drawn differently than his SSJ 1 hair.

As I clearly showed you, Gohan has two different SSJ hairstyles during the buu saga.
And, as I clearly showed you, during the Dabura fight Gohan has SSJ 2 hair without visible lightning, which is obviously a mistake since the author has already made clear in the manga that, in SSJ 2, hair changes. So he should have lightning or have the SSJ 1 hairstyle.

What you said are just another two moments where obviously there must also be a mistake.
In those moments (the videl moment and sword moment) Gohan should have lightning or the SSJ 1 hairstyle.

We are left to figure out for ourselves, because of those mistakes, if Gohan was a SSJ 2 during those moments or not.

But the hair is an indication of the SSJ 2 state as much as the lightning is. Otherwise, the author wouldn`t have changed Gohan`s hair when he first transformed in SSJ 2 in the Cell Saga.
Also, the SSJ 3 state has a different hairstyle as well, which furthermore is a indication that hair is different in each SSJ state.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:12 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Son Gohan didn't do much against Cell in their fight apart from defending. He landed one kick on Cell's face, but for the rest of the fight he was getting his ass handed to him because he didn't want to fight. Gohan was implied to be stronger than Goku at this time.

As for the Dabra fight... There's been so much debate on that stuff I don't even want to get involved. Daizenshuu says Gohan was a SSJ2, manga uses visual evidence to show that Gohan wa a regular Super Saiyan. I personally think Gohan was a regular Super Saiyan and that Dabra was around the same power level as Perfect Cell when he fought SSJ Goku & SSJ Gohan. But like Vegeta mentioned, Gohan shouldn't have had that much trouble with Dabra and that he was stronger when he was a kid. So we are led to think that SSJ Gohan at the Cell Games is stronger than Dabra - by a good deal as well.

This is what I was thinking. If Cell Games Gohan is stronger than Goku, and SSJ Goku can go toe-to-toe with Cell, then even if he did get weaker, SSJ Gohan vs Dabura makes sense.

And what's this about SSJ2 being double the power of SSJ?

In the new guides we learn that SSJ = Battle Power x 50, SSJ2 = SSJ strength x2, and that SSJ3 = SSJ2 Strength x4.

Note the sudden, unexplained switch from BP to "Strength," though.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:29 pm

rereboy wrote:No. Hair isn`t a proof of anything. But an indication? Yes, it is.

Not really. Vegeta had no relevance to this, so it's the same with Gohan. His hair never was the same once the world tournament started.

Just look at Gohan`s SSJ 1 hair and Gohan`s SSJ 2 hair when he was fighting Cell. It`s clearly different.

Totally different scenario.

And if the hair changed with the transformation when Gohan was fighting Cell, then SSJ 2`s hair is meant to be different from SSJ 1`s hair. Even Goku`s SSJ 2 hair is drawn differently than his SSJ 1 hair.

So why doesn't Vegeta's hair change? It's not a rule. We know Vegeta is different because of the aura, which is always there in the Manga when they're Super Saiyan 2. The Anime, however, forgets it sometimes.

As I clearly showed you, Gohan has two different SSJ hairstyles during the buu saga.

Yep. And the first hairstyle was retconned into the one we see from the beginning of the world tournament to the end, as we see.

And, as I clearly showed you, during the Dabura fight Gohan has SSJ 2 hair without visible lightning, which is obviously a mistake since the author has already made clear in the manga that, in SSJ 2, hair changes. So he should have lightning or have the SSJ 1 hairstyle.

The hair isn't a mistake, since we've see him with that hair before he was stated "to take it up a level!" That clears it all up right there.

What you said are just another two moments where obviously there must also be a mistake.
In those moments (the videl moment and sword moment) Gohan should have lightning or the SSJ 1 hairstyle.

He shouldn't have lighning in either part. The Videl one happened before he stated he was going beyond the Super Saiyan--and the Z-sword happened way after all of that stuff, anyway.

It makes no sense for Gohan to be in regular Super Saiyan form while Vegeta and Goku have the proper aura on the following page. That's not a mistake--that's AT not placing Gohan in Super Saiyan 2 form.

But the hair is an indication of the SSJ 2 state as much as the lightning is. Otherwise, the author wouldn`t have changed Gohan`s hair when he first transformed in SSJ 2 in the Cell Saga.

Not really. All stated Super Saiyan 2 warriors have an aura that's different from others--and the hair thing could simply be a retcon. The lightning is far more relevant then the hair, mainly because it leaves out Vegeta. If it's a significant trait, then it must apply to all of them--not just 2 of them.

Also, the SSJ 3 state has a different hairstyle as well, which furthermore is a indication that hair is different in each SSJ state.

Totally different form. And this also has the lightning for the most part.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:49 pm

Y'know...why are people so against the Daizenshû 'retconning' certain almost minute details about the series? Official record states Gohan should have been a Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Dabra. Can't we all just agree it's good and move on?

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:52 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Y'know...why are people so against the Daizenshû 'retconning' certain almost minute details about the series? Official record states Gohan should have been a Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Dabra. Can't we all just agree it's good and move on?

Well, NO. As I mentioned in my previous post, it's entirely plausible for him to be SSJ against Dabura. The fact that he isn't meeting all the SSJ2 requirements in the manga supports that he's SSJ as well.

Kanzenshuu

SSJ Gohan vs Cell

SSJ Gohan vs Cell

Re: SSJ Gohan vs Cell