New Unit Power List !!! What do you think about that one?

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Dayspring
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Post by Dayspring » Sun May 31, 2009 6:04 pm

Herms wrote:
freezamite wrote:No, I put the manga page wher is said that Cold have more power than mecha freezer, in the THREE versions of the manga I used to demonstrate what is said on my list.
I don't know about the three versions you used, but there's no line in the original, Japanese version of the manga that says Cold has more power than Mecha Freeza.
The misconception comes from Tenshinhan's reaction to their strength. He says something along the lines of "He's not alone. There's another, even greater aura with him." This "he" pronoun is used right after a panel of Yamcha and Vegeta talking about Freeza at Capsul Corp, so instead of assuming the "he" Tenshinhan talks about is an unknown "someone" who is Cold, people think the "he" refers to Freeza. Since Tenshinhan never met Freeza before, however, the statement (ignoring Vegeta and Yamcha) can simply be taken as "one is stronger than the other."

Because when gohan and kaiohshin are trying to stop dabra and babidi, kaiohshin even doubted about being able to kill babidi, and then piccolo can destroy him with one single hit.
Kaioshin says Babidi is not strong physically, but his magic makes him dangerous. It's that magic that Kaioshin was worried about when he was preparing to fight him.
I think that's exactly it. Babidi's magic created a barrier capable of blocking Boo's attacks. Even after being chopped in half, his magic was strong enough to block Vegeta self-destruct.

And then there is the fact that all the numbers that are given during the cell saga supports my theory and not the anime/daizenshuu one.
What numbers would those be? Just the number of people Cell absorbed? That's making a lot of baseless assumptions on how much absorbing people powers Cell up.
Agreed. If we're to take 5 as the average PL per person and multiply it by hundreds of thousands (the number of people claimed to have been absorbed), we get Cell's PL as being below 5 million, which would mean #17 is even lower. If you argue that kaioken x10 was being used from the get-go against Freeza, then that means #17 and #18 shouldn't have been a threat for Vegeta when they were activated.
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Post by Bussani » Sun May 31, 2009 8:46 pm

freezamite wrote: To Bussani: Freeza mentions two or three times his lost of energy.
The one that I said that is the more clear for me, the one that you said is another example.
Even when he tries to destroy namek, he uses too low energy to do it.
Since being hurt means lost of ki power, and since freeza said he thought he was going to die, I think there is no doubt that he was injured.
We don't really know that his battle power/ki actually dropped from being injured, though. When he implies or says that he lost or might lose power, he might be talking about stamina. That is, how long he can keep going before his ki burns out, like it did when he was fighting SSJ Goku.

When he tries to blow up Namek, Freeza admits that he 'held back too much' and Goku comments that he was afraid of getting caught in the explosion. It wasn't necessarily because Freeza had become weaker, but because he miscalculated.

Anyway, you're entitled to your theory, but the more complicated a theory becomes and the more assumptions you have to make, the less easy it is to believe. You have to use a lot of ifs and buts and read very deeply for this theory to work, dismissing some lines that conflict with the theory by saying, "well this character probably meant this, and this character didn't know what he was talking about", while I think Toriyama made it pretty clear what he intended. This is a comic for young boys, after all.
Dayspring wrote:The misconception comes from Tenshinhan's reaction to their strength. He says something along the lines of "He's not alone. There's another, even greater aura with him." This "he" pronoun is used right after a panel of Yamcha and Vegeta talking about Freeza at Capsul Corp, so instead of assuming the "he" Tenshinhan talks about is an unknown "someone" who is Cold, people think the "he" refers to Freeza. Since Tenshinhan never met Freeza before, however, the statement (ignoring Vegeta and Yamcha) can simply be taken as "one is stronger than the other."
In my Viz copy he just says, "And it's not just one...there's another with it." He doesn't indicate that either one is bigger. I don't know how the Japanese version words it.

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Post by Herms » Sun May 31, 2009 11:43 pm

Bussani wrote: In my Viz copy he just says, "And it's not just one...there's another with it." He doesn't indicate that either one is bigger. I don't know how the Japanese version words it.
In Japanese (courtesy of the scans in Chibi Mystic Gohan's big post on Freeza and Coldover at My Favorite Games) it's hitotsu dake ja nai...mou hitotsu baka dekai ki ga..., "Not just one...[there's] one other idiotically huge ki...".
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Post by Rocketman » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:00 am

Dayspring wrote:For all we know, Kaioshin is only as strong SSJ Trunks when he took Mecha Freeza.
Given how much of a fucking moron the Supreme Kai is, he probably thought Freeza's first form was his only one.

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Post by Bussani » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:16 am

Herms wrote:
Bussani wrote: In my Viz copy he just says, "And it's not just one...there's another with it." He doesn't indicate that either one is bigger. I don't know how the Japanese version words it.
In Japanese (courtesy of the scans in Chibi Mystic Gohan's big post on Freeza and Coldover at My Favorite Games) it's hitotsu dake ja nai...mou hitotsu baka dekai ki ga..., "Not just one...[there's] one other idiotically huge ki...".
Cool, thanks for that. Viz's translation is pretty good in this case too then.

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Post by Kaboom » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:26 am

Rocketman wrote:Given how much of a fucking moron the Supreme Kai is, he probably thought Freeza's first form was his only one.
Considering he thought a putz like PuiPui was actually a threat, I wouldn't be surprised.
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Post by Herms » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:42 am

If Kaioshin didn't know of Freeza's other forms, how would he know Goku had become a Super Saiyan?
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Post by eienmic » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:56 am

Right on the money, Rocketman. Kaiohshin was the the most whiny, annoying pussy. His rightful place is doing commentary, many, many, planets away... or getting his ass kicked by Fatty Boo. That was freakin' hilarious.
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Post by Wojak » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:26 am

Herms wrote:If Kaioshin didn't know of Freeza's other forms, how would he know Goku had become a Super Saiyan?
By an interuniversal spread of word? :P
Or, he may have gotten the information from the Afterlife, where it was spread that the Legendary Super Saiya-jin was awakened.
That would explain why he didn't take the Super Saiya-jin as that strong.
By the time Gohan killed Cell, he was busy finding Buu's egg and didn't hear about the next level. :P
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Post by Kaboom » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:00 am

Herms wrote:If Kaioshin didn't know of Freeza's other forms, how would he know Goku had become a Super Saiyan?
Tarble told him. :D

"Y'know, I heard a Super Saiyan from Earth beat Freeza!"
"A Super Saiyan, you say? Hmmm... with his help, maybe I can defeat PuiPui!"
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Post by Herms » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:45 am

That reminds me: how the heck did Tarble find the Namekians?
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Post by Kaboom » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:50 am

Herms wrote:That reminds me: how the heck did Tarble find the Namekians?
... Facebook?
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Post by Dayspring » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:09 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:
Rocketman wrote:Given how much of a fucking moron the Supreme Kai is, he probably thought Freeza's first form was his only one.
Considering he thought a putz like PuiPui was actually a threat, I wouldn't be surprised.
Keep in mind that PuiPui was a viable threat, or else Babidi wouldn't have used him; it's just that Vegeta and Goku are freaks of nature. People from the Universe, let alone Saiyans, should not be that powerful. The fact that the strongest members of Vegeta and Goku's race all had PLs beneath 18,000 supports this.
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Post by Kaboom » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:16 pm

Oh yes, I know PuiPui would be an average Saiyan's worst nightmare, but it's kind of silly that a god who's supposedly capable of OHKO'ing Freeza would be wary of him. :lol:
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Post by rereboy » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:23 pm

Pui pui could be stronger than freeza if Vegeta`s base was much stronger than freeza by the Buu saga.

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Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:51 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:Oh yes, I know PuiPui would be an average Saiyan's worst nightmare, but it's kind of silly that a god who's supposedly capable of OHKO'ing Freeza would be wary of him. :lol:
You only think Pui Pui is weak because you think that the base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza, though...

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Post by Wojak » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:07 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:Oh yes, I know PuiPui would be an average Saiyan's worst nightmare, but it's kind of silly that a god who's supposedly capable of OHKO'ing Freeza would be wary of him. :lol:
You only think Pui Pui is weak because you think that the base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza, though...
Well, if they were as strong as Freeza, the SSj3 transformation alone would have blown up Earth into tiny pieces. I mean, just by transforming to it.
Gohan's Cell Games SSJ2 made the whole Earth crumble, so I guess that with a stronger Goku (much stronger in the Buu saga) and his SSj3, Earth wouldn't stand a chance. If his base was at Freeza's level, that is.

Also, Goku and the others didn't take Kaioshin's statement about the Kaioshin being able to take out Freeza with only one blow too lightly either.
If their base was stronger than Freeza's power, their SSJ2 transformation would be enough to handle Fat Buu (100 times Freeza's power = 120.000.000.000), not to say Goku's SSj3 at 480.000.000.000.

Just breathing out some air would cause lots of damage to earth.

That's why I see it as unlikely.
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Post by Dayspring » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:14 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:Oh yes, I know PuiPui would be an average Saiyan's worst nightmare, but it's kind of silly that a god who's supposedly capable of OHKO'ing Freeza would be wary of him. :lol:
What if PuiPui's stronger? Is it so hard to believe that the Majin power up made him stronger?
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Post by Kaboom » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:40 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:You only think Pui Pui is weak because you think that the base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza, though...
Well yeah, that 50x boost from Super Saiyan ain't for nothing.
Dayspring wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:Oh yes, I know PuiPui would be an average Saiyan's worst nightmare, but it's kind of silly that a god who's supposedly capable of OHKO'ing Freeza would be wary of him. :lol:
What if PuiPui's stronger? Is it so hard to believe that the Majin power up made him stronger?
Yes. I don't think the title, "strongest in the universe" wasn't just in name only. I don't like to cheapen Freeza's power. I can understand folks like the legendary Super Saiyan(s), a genetically engineered super monster (Cell), the King of the Demon Realm (Dabra), and an ancient demon of mindless destruction (Majin Buu) all being stronger than him, easy.

But random, never-previously-heard-of shmoes from back pockets of the galaxies like PuiPui and Yakon? Not so much. If I'm expected to believe that they're stronger than a titanic beast like Freeza, even with the Majin boost, then they'd better prove it. They never did.
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Post by Tenshinhan-san » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:49 pm

I think PuiPui was pretty weak and even the non-Saiyan Z fighters would have totally destroyed him. The fact that PuiPui thought 10 times earth's gravity was a big deal supports my theory.

Put in numbers I think his power level would probably be in the thousands, which was pretty impressive at one point and even still when you consider that it's higher than 99% of the universes population, but with all the strong Z fighters on Earth it was nothing special by the Majin Buu saga.

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