New Unit Power List !!! What do you think about that one?

[Saiyan-Professor]

Personally, I think Pui Pui (Pocus) was stronger than Freeza and if he was as weak as many make him out to be Vegeta could have wiped him out with one punch. I know he was playing around but he still put up some effort.

[freezamite]

I don't know about the three versions you used, but there's no line in the original, Japanese version of the manga that says Cold has more power than Mecha Freeza.

In the suposed case that all those 3 independent versions had this translation error, I still have the fact that gohan senses a much lower energy from mecha freezer than he sensed from the original freeza.
And even with SSJ Trunks in front of him, Mecha freeza never released any secret power and he was not confident when he fought against trunks, so the manga still says that mecha freezer was inferior to the original one, and my list continues without contradicting the manga in any point.

Piccolo tells Goku that he and Kaioshin's dimensions are too far apart, the same thing Tenshinhan says about himself and Super Saiyan Goku. So he didn't just forfeit because he guessed Kaioshin's divine status, but because he could tell the great difference between their powers (or possibly a mix of both reasons).

Yes, and this is why I say that the buu saga had its contradictions.
The Kaioh Shin god, at the begining, should be planed as a very important character, one of the most powerful and with an important role during buu's saga.
But then I think toriyama changed its mind the same way he did with gohan, and transformed the East Kaioh Shin and Kibito into comic characters.
Because one thing is for sure, once at babidi's space ship, kaioh shin's role is totally secondary.
And his strength was absolutely nothing compared to Piccolo. The proof is that he considered Pui Pui as a dangerous enemy, while vegeta could defeat it in his base form (and remember what is said about the power you can have in the base state, when the limit is reached, it can't improve. And vegeta reached this limit at the begining of the androids saga).

Kaioshin says Babidi is not strong physically, but his magic makes him dangerous. It's that magic that Kaioshin was worried about when he was preparing to fight him.

Babidi was nothing. This magic didn't work with piccolo, because in fact, piccolo destroyed babidi so fast that he even couldn't do any magic trick to protect himself.

At this part of the saga, kaioh shin had been already transformed into a much weaker character (like gohan).

In the Japanese version he says that Goku is now using it. Granted, the line's not very much on its own, but combined with Goku's aura it indicates Goku is only now starting to use Kaio-ken.

There is no aura. The fact is that there is no aura at that moment.
The only aura that appears is when goku attacks freeza after recieving that stomach punch, but after that freeza punches goku's face and he has no aura.
After kaioh says that, freeza punches goku again and he had no aura.
The aura only appeared when goku flew, and this doesn't mean kaioh ken, because using kaioh ken you have aura even when you're going to shit.

Look at my last post, at the same page's I say and you will see that goku hadn't any special aura when used kaioh ken x10 against freeza.

What numbers would those be? Just the number of people Cell absorbed? That's making a lot of baseless assumptions on how much absorbing people powers Cell up.

It is not baseless, in fact, this information is absolutely important to understand cell's saga.
And there is much more, like the fact that piccolo couldn't go from 1 million to 300 millions only training during 3 years (because if he could, then what has no sense is that after doing such improvement in 3 years of normal training, then he didn't improve that much training 1 year in a much extreme conditions), it has no sense.

Anyway, here's a big long post on why SSJ Goku and Freeza have to be over 100 million or so.

The only way to demonstrate what you say is assuming that the aura drawn on page 10 of chapter 312 is a kaioh ken aura, but the fact that goku IS FLYING, the fact that he don't have any aura at page 13 of the same chapter, the fact that he don't have any aura at page 1 of the chapter 314 and the fact that we don't see any aura surrounding goku until he flyes again at the same page, brings me to the conclusion that goku didn't sart to use kaioh kenx10 when kaioh says he is using it, he was using it since the begining of the match.

Regards.

[Dayspring]

Piccolo tells Goku that he and Kaioshin's dimensions are too far apart, the same thing Tenshinhan says about himself and Super Saiyan Goku. So he didn't just forfeit because he guessed Kaioshin's divine status, but because he could tell the great difference between their powers (or possibly a mix of both reasons).

Yes, and this is why I say that the buu saga had its contradictions.
The Kaioh Shin god, at the begining, should be planed as a very important character, one of the most powerful and with an important role during buu's saga.
But then I think toriyama changed its mind the same way he did with gohan, and transformed the East Kaioh Shin and Kibito into comic characters.
Because one thing is for sure, once at babidi's space ship, kaioh shin's role is totally secondary.

Why the hell shouldn't he be secondary? He's a suporting character introduced at the end of the series. Not even Toriyama's stupid enough to make him a primary.

And his strength was absolutely nothing compared to Piccolo. The proof is that he considered Pui Pui as a dangerous enemy, while vegeta could defeat it in his base form (and remember what is said about the power you can have in the base state, when the limit is reached, it can't improve. And vegeta reached this limit at the begining of the androids saga).

But again, you're assuming Pui Pui wasn't a dangerous enemy. If Babidi, Kaioshin, and Dabura think he is, there must be a reason. Besides, Piccolo wasn't the one who killed Pui Pui, so it's not like Kaioshin thinking they should team up means Piccolo is stronger.

Kaioshin says Babidi is not strong physically, but his magic makes him dangerous. It's that magic that Kaioshin was worried about when he was preparing to fight him.

Babidi was nothing. This magic didn't work with piccolo, because in fact, piccolo destroyed babidi so fast that he even couldn't do any magic trick to protect himself.

There are plenty of instances in which Babidi uses magic successfully against stronger people than Piccolo. Just because Piccolo is fast doesn't mean the magic is pathetic, it just means Piccolo is fast.

In the Japanese version he says that Goku is now using it. Granted, the line's not very much on its own, but combined with Goku's aura it indicates Goku is only now starting to use Kaio-ken.

There is no aura. The fact is that there is no aura at that moment.
The only aura that appears is when goku attacks freeza after recieving that stomach punch, but after that freeza punches goku's face and he has no aura.
After kaioh says that, freeza punches goku again and he had no aura.
The aura only appeared when goku flew, and this doesn't mean kaioh ken, because using kaioh ken you have aura even when you're going to shit.

So...aside from the 4 instances in which he had an aura identical to the one when he used Kaioken x20, there's no aura. That proves our point, not yours.

Look at my last post, at the same page's I say and you will see that goku hadn't any special aura when used kaioh ken x10 against freeza.

We KNOW. But that implies what we're saying, not what you're saying.

What numbers would those be? Just the number of people Cell absorbed? That's making a lot of baseless assumptions on how much absorbing people powers Cell up.

It is not baseless, in fact, this information is absolutely important to understand cell's saga.
And there is much more, like the fact that piccolo couldn't go from 1 million to 300 millions only training during 3 years (because if he could, then what has no sense is that after doing such improvement in 3 years of normal training, then he didn't improve that much training 1 year in a much extreme conditions), it has no sense.

You missed the point. If we take only the number of people he absorbed, than Cell is significantly weaker than 50% Freeza. Logic demands that this can't be the case, as he was clearly stronger than many people who were stronger than 100% Freeza.

Anyway, here's a big long post on why SSJ Goku and Freeza have to be over 100 million or so.

The only way to demonstrate what you say is assuming that the aura drawn on page 10 of chapter 312 is a kaioh ken aura, but the fact that goku IS FLYING, the fact that he don't have any aura at page 13 of the same chapter, the fact that he don't have any aura at page 1 of the chapter 314 and the fact that we don't see any aura surrounding goku until he flyes again at the same page, brings me to the conclusion that goku didn't sart to use kaioh kenx10 when kaioh says he is using it, he was using it since the begining of the match.

Not at all. The manga alone prooves that it's impossible to be as low as 40 million.

[freezamite]

Why the hell shouldn't he be secondary? He's a suporting character introduced at the end of the series. Not even Toriyama's stupid enough to make him a primary.

I'm not talking about making him a primary, but to make it a good secondary, like vegeta.

But again, you're assuming Pui Pui wasn't a dangerous enemy. If Babidi, Kaioshin, and Dabura think he is, there must be a reason. Besides, Piccolo wasn't the one who killed Pui Pui, so it's not like Kaioshin thinking they should team up means Piccolo is stronger.

Pui Pui thought that with 10G of gravity he could win Vegeta, and he thought that because for him a 10G gravity was a notiecable change.
And Pui Pui was weaker than vegeta in its normal form, so it wasn't a dangerous enemy for freeza, but it was for East Kaioh Shin.

There are plenty of instances in which Babidi uses magic successfully against stronger people than Piccolo. Just because Piccolo is fast doesn't mean the magic is pathetic, it just means Piccolo is fast.

Faster than East Kaioh Shin? Because if he was faster than East Kaioh Shin, this means that East Kaioh Shin wasn't that strong, in fact, it means East Kaioh Shin was weaker than piccolo...

So...aside from the 4 instances in which he had an aura identical to the one when he used Kaioken x20, there's no aura. That proves our point, not yours.

4 instances where goku was fliying, If you want, I can tell you docens of instances with goku fliying while he wasn't using kaioh ken and he had an aura.
Look, when goku uses kaioh ken aura, his eyes changes their color to white.
When he attacks freezer and kaioh says that, he hasn't the white eyes, and after that, when he uses kaioh ken x20, he has.

We KNOW. But that implies what we're saying, not what you're saying.

You are saying that goku starts to use kaioh ken x10 when kaioh tells us he is using it.
If goku started to use the kaioh ken x10 in that moment, then toriyama would have drawn any change on him, but he didn't.
So the fact that goku didn't use any special aura on those pages proofs what I'm saying, not your version of the facts.

You missed the point. If we take only the number of people he absorbed, than Cell is significantly weaker than 50% Freeza. Logic demands that this can't be the case, as he was clearly stronger than many people who were stronger than 100% Freeza.

And of course, Cell was weaker than 50% freeza, I explained it at my first post.

Not at all. The manga alone prooves that it's impossible to be as low as 40 million.

What the manga proves is that the daizenshuu was completely wrong on that point, and that it is perfectly possible to give freezer 100% a strenght of "only" 12.000.000

[Olivier Hague]

What the manga proves is that the daizenshuu was completely wrong on that point, and that it is perfectly possible to give freezer 100% a strenght of "only" 12.000.000

And again, you (somehow) calculated that 12.000.000 number, right? It has absolutely nothing to do with that mistranslation from the Daizenshû. Just a coincidence, huh?

[Dayspring]

Why the hell shouldn't he be secondary? He's a suporting character introduced at the end of the series. Not even Toriyama's stupid enough to make him a primary.

I'm not talking about making him a primary, but to make it a good secondary, like vegeta.

Vegeta's clearly a primary character. Kaioshin's not supposed to be as important in battle as Vegeta.

But again, you're assuming Pui Pui wasn't a dangerous enemy. If Babidi, Kaioshin, and Dabura think he is, there must be a reason. Besides, Piccolo wasn't the one who killed Pui Pui, so it's not like Kaioshin thinking they should team up means Piccolo is stronger.

Pui Pui thought that with 10G of gravity he could win Vegeta, and he thought that because for him a 10G gravity was a notiecable change.
And Pui Pui was weaker than vegeta in its normal form, so it wasn't a dangerous enemy for freeza, but it was for East Kaioh Shin.

Pui Pui doesn't have access to books 28-37 of the series like we do.

There are plenty of instances in which Babidi uses magic successfully against stronger people than Piccolo. Just because Piccolo is fast doesn't mean the magic is pathetic, it just means Piccolo is fast.

Faster than East Kaioh Shin? Because if he was faster than East Kaioh Shin, this means that East Kaioh Shin wasn't that strong, in fact, it means East Kaioh Shin was weaker than piccolo...

No it doesn't. At all. The occasion never occured for East Kaioshin to be within striking distance of Babidi.

So...aside from the 4 instances in which he had an aura identical to the one when he used Kaioken x20, there's no aura. That proves our point, not yours.

4 instances where goku was fliying, If you want, I can tell you docens of instances with goku fliying while he wasn't using kaioh ken and he had an aura.
Look, when goku uses kaioh ken aura, his eyes changes their color to white.
When he attacks freezer and kaioh says that, he hasn't the white eyes, and after that, when he uses kaioh ken x20, he has.

Take another look at your mutliple versions of the manga. The aura is identical to that of when he uses kaioken x20.

We KNOW. But that implies what we're saying, not what you're saying.

You are saying that goku starts to use kaioh ken x10 when kaioh tells us he is using it.
If goku started to use the kaioh ken x10 in that moment, then toriyama would have drawn any change on him, but he didn't.
So the fact that goku didn't use any special aura on those pages proofs what I'm saying, not your version of the facts.

The auras go away, Kaio says he just used it. 2 and 2, here.

You missed the point. If we take only the number of people he absorbed, than Cell is significantly weaker than 50% Freeza. Logic demands that this can't be the case, as he was clearly stronger than many people who were stronger than 100% Freeza.

And of course, Cell was weaker than 50% freeza, I explained it at my first post.

But common sense prooves you wrong. Even if we assume the genkidama wounded him, Mecha Freeza is at a strength level greater than 50% Freeza. Trunks kills him easily, so we know Trunks is stronger than 50% Freeza. The Androids are stronger than Trunks, while Cell is stronger than the Androids.

Not at all. The manga alone prooves that it's impossible to be as low as 40 million.

What the manga proves is that the daizenshuu was completely wrong on that point, and that it is perfectly possible to give freezer 100% a strenght of "only" 12.000.000

Greg didn't "prove" anything here, he simply mistranslated the Daizenshuu. That's why he never provided any proof for this "argument."

Even if you argue Goku used Kaioken x10 from the get-go, that just shows Goku's PL was over 10 million for the fight. Kaioken x20 puts him at 20 million. That right there throws your 12 mil out.

[freezamite]

And again, you (somehow) calculated that 12.000.000 number, right? It has absolutely nothing to do with that mistranslation from the Daizenshû. Just a coincidence, huh?

Well, 12.000.000 is never said on the manga, so it could be 13.000.000 or 10.000.000
What this list want to say is:
Vegeta SSJ in androids saga before training on god's palace is about 3.000.000
Perfect Cell has the same power as freeza at his 100% (althought we all know that perfect cell could beat freeza).

Why I say freezer is 12.000.000, like the minstranslation?
The reason is simple, that minstranslation divided by 10 the power of freeza, and goku in its base state.
And I'm saying that the daizenshuu was wrong when they said that goku started to use kaioh ken x10 just at the middle of the fight.
If like I say, we considere that goku was using kaioh ken x10 since de begining, then the numbers of freeza or goku when he isn't using kaioh ken are the same as the minstranslation, but for very different reason.
So the fact is that with minstranslation or without it, my numbers will remain the same, because then I'm absolutely convinced that the minstranslation sais goku SSJ is 15.000.000, and this isn't what I'm saying.

Vegeta's clearly a primary character. Kaioshin's not supposed to be as important in battle as Vegeta.

It is onlya primary character during namek's saga. After that, he is important, but not a primary.

Pui Pui doesn't have access to books 28-37 of the series like we do.

Toriyama had acces to those books when he designed Pui Pui.
We are talking about a difference of 10G, when goku went to namek, he trained with a gravity of 100G.
If Pui Pui was so strong (far stronger than freeza in your opinion) then it has no sense for him to think that a gravity of 10G could change anything.

No it doesn't. At all. The occasion never occured for East Kaioshin to be within striking distance of Babidi.

The most terrible power that babidi had was the one that allowed him to control the evil characters of the manga.
In DB, more power equals to more speed unless the opposite is said.
Babidi had nothing to do against piccolo, and piccolo talked with babidi before destroying him, so babidi had enough time to prepare for the fight.

Take another look at your mutliple versions of the manga. The aura is identical to that of when he uses kaioken x20.

Yes, this is true.
And now look at page 5 of chapter 311, and tell me that this is not a kaioh ken aura.
This is a proof that goku was using kaioh ken x10 since the begining.

The auras go away, Kaio says he just used it. 2 and 2, here.

And he used it then and before freeza reached it's 50%.
If goku started to use kaioh ken x10 then, then he couldn't had a kaioh ken x10 aura before freezer reached its 50%, but he had.

So the fact that goku is using that aura during all the match, and that toriyama didn't draw any change on it when kaito told us goku was using kaioh ken x 10, means that goku used kaioh ken x10 since de begining.

Even if we assume the genkidama wounded him, Mecha Freeza is at a strength level greater than 50% Freeza.

You have absolutely nothing to proove that.
The only one that talks about the power of mecha freezer is gohan, and he says that the power mecha freeza had was nothing compared to the power freeza had on namek.

At this part of the manga, nothing can be said about mecha freeza's power.
But the fact that cell absorved only 500.000 people to become stronger than any android, and that those androids were stronger than trunks SSJ, who was stronger than mecha freeza, prooves us that mecha freezer hadn't the power of the original freeza at his 50%.

Trunks kills him easily, so we know Trunks is stronger than 50% Freeza. The Androids are stronger than Trunks, while Cell is stronger than the Androids.

This is only if we supose that mecha freezer is stronger than 50% freeza, and this is not true.
Trunks kills mecha freezer easily, the androids are stronger than trunks, cell become far stronger than the androids 17 & 18 absorving 1.000.000 - 1.500.000 of ki power units, those are the facts.
We don't know if mecha freezer is stronger or weaker than the original one at his 50% until toriyama tells us how many people cell absorved.

Once we know that, we can calculate aproximately the ki power of the characters of cell saga, and it is impossible for mecha freezer to be at the same level than the original one at his 50%, in fact it is impossible for mecha freezer to have more than 1.5000.000 - 2.000.000
I told he was 700.000 based on what is said on the english, catalan and the castillian versions, but if this wasn't said on the manga, then mecha freezer could be stonger than that, never surpassing the 2.000.000 unit power.

Even if you argue Goku used Kaioken x10 from the get-go, that just shows Goku's PL was over 10 million for the fight.

No, why do you think that goku was 1.000.000 at his normal form?

[Dayspring]

Pui Pui doesn't have access to books 28-37 of the series like we do.

Toriyama had acces to those books when he designed Pui Pui.
We are talking about a difference of 10G, when goku went to namek, he trained with a gravity of 100G.
If Pui Pui was so strong (far stronger than freeza in your opinion) then it has no sense for him to think that a gravity of 10G could change anything.

How would Pui Pui possibly know any of this? He has no idea who Vegeta and Goku are, let alone that they trained under 100G and 300G. He had a very logical reason to assume they're humans, and thus never got exposed to more than 1G.

No it doesn't. At all. The occasion never occured for East Kaioshin to be within striking distance of Babidi.

The most terrible power that babidi had was the one that allowed him to control the evil characters of the manga.
In DB, more power equals to more speed unless the opposite is said.
Babidi had nothing to do against piccolo, and piccolo talked with babidi before destroying him, so babidi had enough time to prepare for the fight.

Boo had reason to fear his magic. Boo had to resort to super speed and trickery in order to defeat him. 'Nuff said.

Take another look at your mutliple versions of the manga. The aura is identical to that of when he uses kaioken x20.

Yes, this is true.
And now look at page 5 of chapter 311, and tell me that this is not a kaioh ken aura.
This is a proof that goku was using kaioh ken x10 since the begining.

Sorry, could you please tell me what's happening here? It'll be easier for me to look it up rather than to search for an individual chapter.

The auras go away, Kaio says he just used it. 2 and 2, here.

And he used it then and before freeza reached it's 50%.
If goku started to use kaioh ken x10 then, then he couldn't had a kaioh ken x10 aura before freezer reached its 50%, but he had.

Not sure what you're saying here. Rephrase, please.

So the fact that goku is using that aura during all the match, and that toriyama didn't draw any change on it when kaito told us goku was using kaioh ken x 10, means that goku used kaioh ken x10 since de begining.

No he didn't. The aura wasn't present in their battle prior to those bursts when Kaio says he's just kaioken x10.

Even if we assume the genkidama wounded him, Mecha Freeza is at a strength level greater than 50% Freeza.

You have absolutely nothing to proove that.
The only one that talks about the power of mecha freezer is gohan, and he says that the power mecha freeza had was nothing compared to the power freeza had on namek.

At this part of the manga, nothing can be said about mecha freeza's power.
But the fact that cell absorved only 500.000 people to become stronger than any android, and that those androids were stronger than trunks SSJ, who was stronger than mecha freeza, prooves us that mecha freezer hadn't the power of the original freeza at his 50%.

But Freeza states he's stronger. Keep in mind that in the original timeline, Goku would have killed Mecha Freeza, who would have been at a strength greater than his 100% Namek PL. That means that this Goku is stronger than 100% Namek Freeza. If this Goku would be able to do that too, and go on to be weaker than the androids, it stands to reason that the androids and Cell are stronger than Freeza's 100%

Even if you argue Goku used Kaioken x10 from the get-go, that just shows Goku's PL was over 10 million for the fight.

No, why do you think that goku was 1.000.000 at his normal form?

Goku (pre-kaioken) > Vegeta > Freeza's second form > 1,000,000. I'm not saying he's at 1 million exactly, I'm saying the manga shows he's at an unknown value greater than 1 million. If you feel he's using kaioken x10 the instant he starts fighting Freeza, that just means he's over 10 million for most of the fight. That still gets SSJ as being well over 40 million.

[freezamite]

How would Pui Pui possibly know any of this? He has no idea who Vegeta and Goku are, let alone that they trained under 100G and 300G. He had a very logical reason to assume they're humans, and thus never got exposed to more than 1G.

But even assuming they are humans, don't you think that if Pui Pui had (just to put an example) 15.000.000 (stronger than freeza) it is absolutely illogic for him to assume that vegeta, who is even stronger, could not resist a gravity of only 10G?
A 10G gravity was a problem for goku after fighting against raditz, with a strength of 400.
Pui Pui was weak, really weak, weaker than vegeta in its base state, in the best of the cases he coud have 50.000 or 60.000 units, not more.

Boo had reason to fear his magic. Boo had to resort to super speed and trickery in order to defeat him. 'Nuff said.

I knew you would say that. Of course, boo is an exception because babidi has a special trick reserved for him.
But this can only be applied on bu, this is not the case of piccolo or kaiohshin.

Sorry, could you please tell me what's happening here? It'll be easier for me to look it up rather than to search for an individual chapter.

It is the part when freeza fought without using his hands.

Not sure what you're saying here. Rephrase, please.

I said that goku was using kaioh ken even before than freeza reached its 50% of total strength.

No he didn't. The aura wasn't present in their battle prior to those bursts when Kaio says he's just kaioken x10.

The aura was present in their battle, but it was only drawn in concrete situations because it is assumed that the reader knows that goku is using kaioh ken x 10.
If the kaioh ken aura had appeared only when kaioh said that, then we could assume that goku started to use kaioh ken x10 AFTER freeza powered up.
But the fact is that goku used it lots of times before freeza had the power up.

But Freeza states he's stronger. Keep in mind that in the original timeline, Goku would have killed Mecha Freeza, who would have been at a strength greater than his 100% Namek PL. That means that this Goku is stronger than 100% Namek Freeza. If this Goku would be able to do that too, and go on to be weaker than the androids, it stands to reason that the androids and Cell are stronger than Freeza's 100%

And gohan states the opposite.
In the original timeline goku would have killed mecha freeza, this is a fact, and this doesn't contradict my list.
However, you are contradicting the manga when you say that mecha freezer is stronger than the original one, because gohan tells us this isn't true.

Freeza had lots of reasons to say he was stronger now even when it isn't true, I explained that before, and it is impossible to argue why gohan could lie about the energy he is sensing.

Goku (pre-kaioken) > Vegeta > Freeza's second form > 1,000,000. I'm not saying he's at 1 million exactly, I'm saying the manga shows he's at an unknown value greater than 1 million. If you feel he's using kaioken x10 the instant he starts fighting Freeza, that just means he's over 10 million for most of the fight.

No, this is not true.
If goku fights using kaioh ken x10 since de begining, we only know that Goku Kaioh ken x10 > vegeta > Freeza's second form > 1.000.000
Goku could be perfectly 300.000, and 3.000.000 when using kaioh ken.

Regards.

[Dayspring]

How would Pui Pui possibly know any of this? He has no idea who Vegeta and Goku are, let alone that they trained under 100G and 300G. He had a very logical reason to assume they're humans, and thus never got exposed to more than 1G.

But even assuming they are humans, don't you think that if Pui Pui had (just to put an example) 15.000.000 (stronger than freeza) it is absolutely illogic for him to assume that vegeta, who is even stronger, could not resist a gravity of only 10G?
A 10G gravity was a problem for goku after fighting against raditz, with a strength of 400.
Pui Pui was weak, really weak, weaker than vegeta in its base state, in the best of the cases he coud have 50.000 or 60.000 units, not more.

Pui Pui's not expecting Vegeta to become flattened, just slowed down so that the battle won't be one-sided. Remember that if Pui Pui wasn't strong, Babidi wouldn't have kepted him around.

Boo had reason to fear his magic. Boo had to resort to super speed and trickery in order to defeat him. 'Nuff said.

I knew you would say that. Of course, boo is an exception because babidi has a special trick reserved for him.
But this can only be applied on bu, this is not the case of piccolo or kaiohshin.

Why not? Super powerful sealing magic doesn't mean it's only good against one person, just that it's super powerful.

Sorry, could you please tell me what's happening here? It'll be easier for me to look it up rather than to search for an individual chapter.

It is the part when freeza fought without using his hands.

Not sure what you're saying here. Rephrase, please.

I said that goku was using kaioh ken even before than freeza reached its 50% of total strength.

No he didn't. The aura wasn't present in their battle prior to those bursts when Kaio says he's just kaioken x10.

The aura was present in their battle, but it was only drawn in concrete situations because it is assumed that the reader knows that goku is using kaioh ken x 10.
If the kaioh ken aura had appeared only when kaioh said that, then we could assume that goku started to use kaioh ken x10 AFTER freeza powered up.
But the fact is that goku used it lots of times before freeza had the power up.

Now I have no idea what your reasoning is. If you acknowledge that the aura is proof that he's using kaioken x10, why are you saying it prooves that it prooves he was using it prior? You're asking us to assume a random change in the rules of kaioken have occured wihout reason, except for when proof of consistency occurs. I'm sorry, but no: burden of proof.

But Freeza states he's stronger. Keep in mind that in the original timeline, Goku would have killed Mecha Freeza, who would have been at a strength greater than his 100% Namek PL. That means that this Goku is stronger than 100% Namek Freeza. If this Goku would be able to do that too, and go on to be weaker than the androids, it stands to reason that the androids and Cell are stronger than Freeza's 100%

And gohan states the opposite.
In the original timeline goku would have killed mecha freeza, this is a fact, and this doesn't contradict my list.
However, you are contradicting the manga when you say that mecha freezer is stronger than the original one, because gohan tells us this isn't true.

No I'm not. Our Mecha Freeza clearly isn't powered up to 100%. So when Gohan says he can power up, he's stating the truth. My point is that Goku in the original timeline would have faced off against Freeza at 100%, so since both Freezas have the same strength, if Goku can defeat Freeza in one timeline, he'll be stronger in ours as well.

Freeza had lots of reasons to say he was stronger now even when it isn't true, I explained that before, and it is impossible to argue why gohan could lie about the energy he is sensing.

Neither is lying. Freeza simply isn't at max strength yet. His current max would be stronger than his Namek max.

Goku (pre-kaioken) > Vegeta > Freeza's second form > 1,000,000. I'm not saying he's at 1 million exactly, I'm saying the manga shows he's at an unknown value greater than 1 million. If you feel he's using kaioken x10 the instant he starts fighting Freeza, that just means he's over 10 million for most of the fight.

No, this is not true.
If goku fights using kaioh ken x10 since de begining, we only know that Goku Kaioh ken x10 > vegeta > Freeza's second form > 1.000.000
Goku could be perfectly 300.000, and 3.000.000 when using kaioh ken.

Regards.

Well no. Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan would have noticed.

Kaioken works in short bursts and has an aura. The manga doesn't stray from this in the battle against Freeza. AT ALL. So why assume that it simultaneously does and doesn't? Stop trying to hammer a square block through a circular hole: there's nothing wrong with the PLs being as high as they are; they're not anymore irrealistic than the 1/10th strength you're proposing.

[Tenshinhan-san]

I still think PuiPui's Powerlevel was 'only' in the thousands. I think he's somewhere between Nappa and say someone of Cui's level. The fact that he thinks 10x Earth's gravity is a big deal supports this.

Babidi not keeping around weaklings is very true, but keep in mind that at a powerlevel of even a couple of thousand someone is stronger than 99% of the universes population. That by no means makes PuiPui a weakling. He's just a weakling compared to the insane levels of power all Z-fighters and villains have aquired by that time. Also, Babidi and Dabura had no idea of the true potential of the Z fighters, they only knew they were 'strong'. So, with that mindset, they probably thought someone like PuiPui was an adequate choice to at least put some serious hurt on the Z-fighters.

I see it like this;

PuiPui > Saiyan Saga Powerlevel
Yakon > Freeza Saga Powerlevel
Dabura > Cell Saga Powerlevel

I think that's pretty adequate to build up the power of opposition in that way and kinda 'wink' at the audience at the same time by referring to comparable powerlevels of a respective story arc to just show how much the Z-fighters have grown, if that makes any sense, lol

[Kaboom]

T-san's got it right. Don't forget, you only have to have a PL of about 20,000 or higher to be considered serious business by the majority of the rest of the universe. Folks like Freeza, Dabra, the Super Saiyans, and so on... they're freaks insofar as power scaling goes. People aren't really supposed to be that strong, not by a long shot, and 99% of mortals out there don't even come close.

So folks like PuiPui could top out at "only" a few hundred thousand and still be considered hot sh*t.

[freezamite]

Remember that if Pui Pui wasn't strong, Babidi wouldn't have kepted him around.

When Vegeta arrived at earth had 18.000 and he was considered one of the most powerful beings of the universe.
If Pui Pui had (lets supose) 50.000, he could be perfectly a member of the special forces of freeza.

Why not? Super powerful sealing magic doesn't mean it's only good against one person, just that it's super powerful.

Bu was sealed by bibidi (bu's creator), and babidi knew how to reseal bu.
If babidi had had the capacity of sealing anyone he wanted, don't you think he would have used it with piccolo for example?
Bu was an exception because he was bibidi's creation.

Now I have no idea what your reasoning is.

My reasoning is very simple. If goku used kaioh ken BEFORE freeza reached it's 50%, that means that he used it during all the match, because freeza fights against goku using always the same stength before powering up, and it is obvious that if goku had the capacity to fight freeza without using kaioh ken x10 as you say, using it before freeza had any power up would be the end of freeza in few seconds.

The fact that toriyama had drawn the kaioh ken aura BEFORE freeza reached 50% and the fact that even when kaioh tells us that goku is using it, we can see goku without any aura in more than one "emblem?" (not sure if emblem is the correct word here) is a proof that kaioh ken x10 was being used since de begining of the match.

Our Mecha Freeza clearly isn't powered up to 100%.

Mecha freeza is at his 100%, the manga demonstrates this when the fight against trunks starts and freeza attacked with all his strength without having a single power up.
And freeza was fighting at his maximum capacity against trunks, the proof is that he was really scared of the ssj and that trunks told him to attack with all his strength since the begining.

So when Gohan says he can power up, he's stating the truth.

Gohan says mecha can power up because he don't know how freeza had changed.
He talks about mecha freeza as if he was the real freeza, and he thinks he can power up because he senses a much lower power than the one he sensed on namek.
But the fact is that when mecha freezer fought against trunks, he hadn't had a single power up.

Neither is lying. Freeza simply isn't at max strength yet. His current max would be stronger than his Namek max.

Absolutely not, this would contradict what is said during the android saga, starting for the number of humans absorved by cell and finishing with the power up piccolo had duing his 3 year training or the strength of the androids 19 and 20.

Well no. Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan would have noticed.

Would have noticed what?
Goku is using kaioh ken x10 since the very begining of the match.
He says he have an absolute control of kaioh ken x10, so this explanation is not only 100% valid, is the only one that can be assumed without contradicting the manga.

Kaioken works in short bursts and has an aura.

Normally yes, but goku states in namek that he has a total control of kaioh ken x10.
When he uses kaioh ken x20 (a kaioh ken that he can't control) then the aura is drawn all the time.
Or maybe toriyama didn't want to draw an aura in every emblem of the fight, and he decided only to draw it in some emblems.

We don't know the reason toriyama didn't draw the kaioh ken aura in all the emblems of the fight, but we know goku had had a kaioh ken aura far before freeza had any power up, what means he used kaioh ken since the begining of the match. With aura or without it.

they're not anymore irrealistic than the 1/10th strength you're proposing.

Yes they are, because then, during ALL the cell saga, what I say is stated by the manga, and contradicts what is said on the daizenshuu (for example).

I think he's somewhere between Nappa and say someone of Cui's level.

Yes, it could perfectly be in that level of strength.

PuiPui > Saiyan Saga Powerlevel
Yakon > Freeza Saga Powerlevel
Dabura > Cell Saga Powerlevel

This could be perfectly like you say.
Yakon could be at 100.000 - 200.000 units aproximately, and Dabura had a power similar to perfect cell.
This can be explained because all those characters had the evil power up that the babidi's mental control give to evil characters.
What I mean is that dabra would be far weaker if he wasn't controlled by babidi, and this give some coherence at those power levels of babidi's warriors.

Regards.

[Wojak]

I would like to add my opinion here.

From the Freeza saga, we see the following changes in powerlevels of our heroes (these are approximations and not fact, mind you):

Kuririn: From 1,500 to approximately 30,000
Gohan: From 1,500 to approximately 2,000,000 (he was able to hold back 3rd form Freeza with a full power blast).
Vegeta: From 22,000 to 500,000 to at least 2,000,000 (stronger than Piccolo, weaker than 1% Freeza).
Goku: From 8,000 to 90,000 to 3,000,000 (or 300,000 in Freezamite's case)

In multiplication, the rise would be:
Kuririn: His power rose with 20 times.
Gohan: 1333 times.
Vegeta: At least 90 times
Goku: With 375 times (or 37,5 times in Freezamite's case)

This indicates that the heroes needed to have a huge rise in their powerlevel to be able to handle Freeza and his lackeys.
If we add Goku's SSJ transformation (x50) to his 375 multiplication, we get 18750 times his Freeza saga powerlevel (in the beginning), a lot higher than the rest of the heroes, given that he has become the LEGENDARY SUPER SAIYA-JIN, THE ONLY THING FREEZA FEARED IN THE WHOLE UNIVERSE! He was the Saiya-jin of legend, meant to take out Freeza.
To say that Goku only managed to defeat Freeza because of that Freeza was weakened would be an insult to Toriyama's writing, as he clearly shows us that Goku is at his peak, decimating Freeza with no effort.
The "evidence" in the manga that you speak of are to me misinterpretations, nothing that even three translations of a manga can fix.

And my last note is that Pui Pui was weak. There's not much more to it.
The heroes were strong enough to take him out with a single no-effort punch.

[Herms]

And my last note is that Pui Pui was weak. There's not much more to it.
The heroes were strong enough to take him out with a single no-effort punch.

Vegeta actually punched him quite a few times. And being far weaker than Boo arc Vegeta certainly doesn't make one weak in a general sense, as noted above.

[Wojak]

And my last note is that Pui Pui was weak. There's not much more to it.
The heroes were strong enough to take him out with a single no-effort punch.

Vegeta actually punched him quite a few times. And being far weaker than Boo arc Vegeta certainly doesn't make one weak in a general sense, as noted above.

Well, from my view Vegeta was playing around with Pui Pui and didn't try to kill him instantly. I wouldn't even call his fighting no-effort.
His last ki-blast wasn't shot with much effort either, even though it lead to Pui Pui to be pulverized.
And yes, as I said, the heroes could take him out easily, and I thought it was clear that I meant that he was weak comparing to the heroes, since it was written in the same paragraph, but I guess I was unclear.

[freezamite]

Kuririn: From 1,500 to approximately 30,000
Gohan: From 1,500 to approximately 2,000,000 (he was able to hold back 3rd form Freeza with a full power blast).
Vegeta: From 22,000 to 500,000 to at least 2,000,000 (stronger than Piccolo, weaker than 1% Freeza).
Goku: From 8,000 to 90,000 to 3,000,000 (or 300,000 in Freezamite's case)

In multiplication, the rise would be:
Kuririn: His power rose with 20 times.
Gohan: 1333 times.
Vegeta: At least 90 times
Goku: With 375 times (or 37,5 times in Freezamite's case)

Well, the case of son gohan is different, and I wouldn't say he had 2.000.000 even when he get angry.
Gohan's power was at about 50.000 when the fight against freeza started, and after the zenkai power he had when dende healed him he could have a power of around 200.000
What was dangerous about gohan was his anger power up.

To say that Goku only managed to defeat Freeza because of that Freeza was weakened would be an insult to Toriyama's writing, as he clearly shows us that Goku is at his peak, decimating Freeza with no effort.

It probably could be that if DB had ended on the namek saga.
But Toriyama continued the manga, and he taked profit of the fact that freeza was injured when fought against the SSJ and applied that during all the cell saga.
This is not insulting toriyama's writing, in fact, it is the opposite, because writting such a complex power level scale can only be done by an excellent writter.

[Wojak]

Well, the case of son gohan is different, and I wouldn't say he had 2.000.000 even when he get angry.
Gohan's power was at about 50.000 when the fight against freeza started, and after the zenkai power he had when dende healed him he could have a power of around 200.000
What was dangerous about gohan was his anger power up.


This is not insulting toriyama's writing, in fact, it is the opposite, because writting such a complex power level scale can only be done by an excellent writter.

I was referring to everyone's max power, which is what they can fight with.
Not acutual scouter powerlevels.
So Gohan's 2,000,000 (when angry of course) is plausible.

And by excellent writer, do you mean Toriyama or yourself?

EDIT: And if it should have ended in Freeza saga, there would be no way that Toriyama was careful to make the new enemies weaker than Freeza.
Toriyama always makes his main enemies stronger than the next one, making it a new challenge.
And it would be odd that Cell, made from Freeza's cells, would be weaker than him.

[Dayspring]

Freezamite:

1) Gohan's PL must surpass the 1,000,000 mark (when angry) for him to be a serious threat to third form Freeza.

2) As Herms mentioned earlier in the thread, NOWHERE does Goku mention in the manga that he has perfect control of Kaioken x10, just that he thinks he might be able to use kaiokens as high as x10. Even if he did have "perfect control" of x10, it would just mean it has the same affects as kaioken x2 had on him in the battle against Vegeta.

3) Freeza was toying with Goku all along. That's why Goku used kaioken x10 when he did.

4) Kaio is refering not to the entire fight, but the instant there is aura. In other words, Goku just used Kaioken x10. It doesn't mean he was using it all throughout the fight.

5) Even if everything you say is true, you're asking us to assume Goku abandoned Kaioken x10, which no longer has any faults for some reason, in order to adopt a transformation that changes his nature, clouds his judgment, wastes energy, and is weaker than kaioken x9.

6) Your "rules" about the Cell saga PLs are not statements from the manga, they are just the second part of your theory. There is a SUBSTANCIAL difference.

7) It does not matter what PL is considered huge in regards to humans. If it isn't up to BABIDI's standards (ie: huge like Yakon or Dabura), he will not keep him. Added to that, Pui Pui got a huge boost from the majin spell. He may still be weak, but he's clearly stronger than Freeza in order to be a threat to Kaioshin.

[freezamite]

Dayspring:

1) Of course, Gohan was around 600.000 when he fought against 3rd form freeza and he was around 1.200.000 when he fought 2nd form freeza (although freeza says that he had plus than 1.000.000 in his 3rd form, it is also said that he wasn't using all his strength when he fought against gohan).

2) We only know what is drawn, and what is drawn is that goku didn't change in any aspect when kaito tells us that he is using kaioh ken x10.
So the only conclusion we can reach is that he was using it since the begining of the fight against freeza.

3) Freeza was toying with goku during all the match. Goku used kaioh ken x10 since de begining because he was weaker than vegeta without using kaioh ken x10.

4) The fact is that THERE ISN'T ANY SPECIAL AURA. The only aura that we see is the one goku uses to atack freeza while fliying, and that aura appeared several times during the fight. Look when freeza is fighting without using his hands, and the aura that goku had at that moment.
It this aura is not a kaioh ken aura, tell me what kind of aura is.

5) No, this is not true. Kaioh ken, even controlled perfectly, was dangerous for the one that used it.
The SSJ, once controlled, gives you much more power and without any risk.
If you read the manga carefully, you will understand why goku abandoned kaioh ken in favour of SSJ even when in certain parts of the series the kaioh ken could give him more strength that the SSJ.

6) My rules ARE statements from the manga, all what I'm saying is said on the manga.
Number of people absorved by cell, the fact that the base form has a limit from wich you can't progress, the fact that piccolo wasn't very far of vegeta SSJ (wich at least had the same power of a healthy goku in his SSJ form)...
All that things were said on the manga, and clearly shows us that toriyama had an idea of the strength of the z-warriors while he was planing cell's saga, and that strength wasn't that big.

7) He CAN'T be stronger than freeza even with the "Majin" boost, because is destroyed by vegeta in its base form.
Freeza could destroy that vegeta with no problem.
The buu saga didn't have the work that the freeza or cell sagas had.
It has several contradictions like the power of Kaioh Shin (firstly a powerful character, then a comical one) or the power of gohan (firstly a SSJ2 and then only a frustrated full power).

Regards.