Golden Ôzaru, Chibi GT Kakarrot and Legendary Broli

[Saiyan-Professor]

Herms has brought to our attention that Toei based the Golden Ôzaru in Dragonball GT off Vegeta’s commentary image during the Namek Saga in Z. Thus, the Legendary Super Saiyan transformation was the Golden Ôzaru. I am not attempting to start an argument concerning whether it was the humanoid form that Kakarrot achieved, or the Ôzaru. I am going off the premise that GT established that is the Golden Ôzaru was the form of legend. Now that I have established this, I will ask my questions.

1.) I have always theorized that the Super Saiyan transformations we see prior to GT was the Saiyan’s body adjusting to the fact that it lacked a tail, so it develops those forms to tap into the Golden Ôzaru’s power. If the Golden Ôzaru was the first Super Saiyan transformation, was Chibi GT Kakarrot’s (sub) Super Saiyan (3) transformation with a golden tail something entirely new?

2.) Dayspring theorized that Broli was a mutant thus his insane combat strength at birth. Buscani later added that perhaps Broli’s “Legendary” transformation was his (mutant) body’s method of tapping into the Golden Ôzaru’s power as well. Does anyone think this may be the case?

[Bussani]

I think in GT's own canon, the Golden Oozaru is definitely supposed to be the Super Saiyajin of legend. I like the concept I suppose. I don't know if the humanoid Super Saiyajin forms are caused because of the lack of a tail, but that they could be ways of tapping into that Golden Oozaru power. That is, it's not the lack of the tail that made them possible, but the lack of the tail made it the only way.

My reasoning for this is that a full moon was still required to transform Goku into the Golden Oozaru. I don't think you would spontaneously change into one if you had a tail, the way you spontaneously turn into a Super Saiyajin. Maybe it's like this; you need rage to turn into a Super Saiyajin, right? Oozaru seem to have plenty of rage. So once you have the potential to go Super Saiyajin (like Goku did when fighting Freeza) you just need the rage. In Goku's case, this just happened. If you became an Oozaru though, I wouldn't be surprise if that was enough rage to turn you into a Golden one.

Anyway, the reason I mentioned that about Broly is because someone (maybe you, Professor) pointed out that his muscles don't just increase, but his whole frame seems to change size. He becomes a giant. Since Saiyajin do that when they become an Oozaru anyway, I figured that if he were a mutant, he might be able to transform part way somehow without a moon or tail. And since he's SSJ when he did it, that might mean he's like...1/4 Golden Oozaru, or something.

[Jackal puFF]

Didn't goku turn into a gold ape cause he looked at Earth instead of the moon?

[Bussani]

Didn't goku turn into a gold ape cause he looked at Earth instead of the moon?

If it was that easy, wouldn't a Saiyajin have done it before? Earth just acted as a moon, reflecting the necessary bruit waves, I think.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Didn't goku turn into a gold ape cause he looked at Earth instead of the moon?

If it was that easy, wouldn't a Saiyajin have done it before? Earth just acted as a moon, reflecting the necessary bruit waves, I think.

Yeah but I guess no one had the necessary power or a tail that is required to make the transformation earlier in the series.

[omegacwa]

Does it say anywhere that it is not possible to reach SSJ1 if you have a tail?

SSJ1, to me at least, is the legendary form. SSJ2, SSJ3, Golden Oozaru, and SSJ4 are just modifications of the ability.

For instance, a Master Magician may learn an awesome trick, but he will modify it to suit his style and needs. I guess SSJ could be similar. It can be modified as the fighter becomes more experienced.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Does it say anywhere that it is not possible to reach SSJ1 if you have a tail?

SSJ1, to me at least, is the legendary form. SSJ2, SSJ3, Golden Oozaru, and SSJ4 are just modifications of the ability.

For instance, a Master Magician may learn an awesome trick, but he will modify it to suit his style and needs. I guess SSJ could be similar. It can be modified as the fighter becomes more experienced.

It does not state anywhere that I know of it is just that since Toei pretty much went in the direction that the original legendary form was the Golden Ôzaru. One would just conclude that the form Kakarrot and the remainder of the Saiyans took was something different, I guess you can liken it to a “default” Super Saiyan form. I mentioned in the beginning I am trying not to get into an argument concerning which was the original because I am starting with the premise that GT forwards.

I seriously doubt any other Saiyan in their history got an opportunity to reacquire their tail once they were well into adult hood let alone a Super Saiyan 3 transformation. To me it appears as if GT introduced something new to Dragonball besides Super Saiyan 4.

[Bussani]

Does it say anywhere that it is not possible to reach SSJ1 if you have a tail?

SSJ1, to me at least, is the legendary form. SSJ2, SSJ3, Golden Oozaru, and SSJ4 are just modifications of the ability.

For instance, a Master Magician may learn an awesome trick, but he will modify it to suit his style and needs. I guess SSJ could be similar. It can be modified as the fighter becomes more experienced.

Nothing says you can't be Super Saiyajin with a tail. It's just never seen in the manga. Going by the manga alone, I would agree with your definition of what the 'legendary' form is, and that everything else are different/further ways of using it. GT seems to imply something different though. It's one of the reasons I keep the two separate in my head.

[rereboy]

Maybe the SSJ state is a way for the sayan to tap the power of the oozaru, but remember that, while the oozaru only has a 10x power increase, the SSJ state has a 50x power increase.

So if the sayan is tapping into that power, hes bringing out even more power than in the oozaru form, which doesn`t make a lot of sense.

Especially considering a golden oozaru, which should have a more powerfull increase in power than a normal oozaru.

Which kind of implies that they are different things, since a golden oozaru requires a tail to transform into an oozaru, and the power or potential to be a super sayan.

Personally, I think that they are two different things.

In my opinion, the sayans have two ways to transform.
One is the oozaru way. Thats the common one.
The other is the way of legend. The legendary super sayan. A transformation so rare that is said to happen once in a thousand years. As we see in the series, this transformation requires a very high amount of power to happen which is very rare, along with rage. Thats why its very, very rare. This way to transform can also be pushed further as we see in the series in order to gain even more power using just this one brand of transformation (SSJ2 and SSJ3).

However, there is a way to combine the two transformations in order to get a third or a ultimate one.

In order to do this, a sayan must achieve the super sayan status and still have his tail. Then he must transform into an oozaru who becomes infused with the power of the first transformation (golden oozaru).
If he keeps it together and manages to remain conscious in oozaru form, the two tranformations will fully combine and he will achieve Super Sayan 4, or as I like to call it, Ultimate Sayan Form.

Of course, a sayan that has greater power before reaching SSJ4 will be more powerfull than one who is weaker to begin with.

Btw, the notion of SSJ 4 ou ultimate sayan form is the only thing from GT that I truly consider part of the "dragon world". It just didn`t happen in DBZ because they lost their tails and they had no way of knowing. The only one who knew was the Dai Kaioshin but he thought it was better to just release Gohan potential and tell them about the earings, since they didn`t have their tails. Everything else from GT I just consider it to be a parallel dimension where things are different or something to that effect.

As for brolly, I consider him a mutant who is capable of reaching and abusing the legendary transformation.

[Coola Yagami]

Makes ya kinda wish Gohan and Vegeta kept their tails to see what would happen. What if Vegeta's tail did grow back and he still had it during the Android saga? hell, what if Vegeta had it and turned Ohzaru during the fight with Freeza?

[Terra-jin]

1) I don't think SSj is a sort of adjusted form, it's just much harder to achieve in a Saiyan's normal form than it is as an Ôzaru. It's still a completely separate type of transformation. The transformation requires power and rage - two things that the Ôzaru supplies.

Goku was at 90,000 when he was first able to turn SSj (after he feels strangely calm, having completed 100G training). It is this strange calmness that allowed him to experience pure rage - the contrast between his calm and his anger was the trigger. Goku was unique in this respect: he was able to experience pure rage without his Ôzaru form. Most other Saiyans - including the previous Legend - didn't have pure anger (the same reason Vegeta couldn't transform, at first).
It's also possible that the previous Legend didn't have as much power as Goku and therefore needed the power of the Ôzaru to reach the SSj power threshold. Assuming that 90,000 is the threshold, this previous Legendary SSj could have made it with a mere 9,000... ok, perhaps the threshold is more likely to be at 300,000 (Goku's initial level when confronting Freeza), in which case the previous Legend could've been at 30,000 when he transformed.
In this case, when Goku completed his 100G training, he was not yet powerful enough, but he did gain the ability to experience pure rage (as explained above). After he rose to 300,000 by his last zenkai, his power passed the SSj threshold and he was ready to transform.

This would mean that the SSj form was, throughout Saiyan history, only seen in Ôzaru form. There simply weren't any Saiyans that both had enough power and were able to experience pure rage. Because the Saiyans never witnessed an SSj, the Golden Ôzaru became the figure of the legend, when actually the transformation itself was separate from the Ôzaru.
There also weren't any Ascendent or Transcendent Super Saiyans (SSj 2 and 3) in Saiyan history. A lot happened with the Saiyans of 'our' age - previously the Saiyans were a comparatively uninteresting lot and therefore never rose past their limits like Goku, Vegeta and the others did.

~

About Chibi Goku and his golden tail while SSj: this would still fit in your theory if you expand "... the Saiyan's body adjusting to the fact that it lacked a tail..." with "...and/or the presence of a full moon." This way, the golden tail isn't really something entirely new.

2) I've always viewed Broly's form as a sort of USSj 3 (you know, one step further above Trunks' muscly form). Of course that still leaves the reduced speed thing, but I really don't remember Broly being particularly fast
I wholly agree about him being a mutant; there's nothing legendary about a big bulky powerhouse (who got beaten three times ) that had no real fighting spirit. There may have been other mutants; some of them may have even claimed the SSj transformation of their time, but their lack of a special spirit like Goku's or Vegeta's meant that they probably never went past Golden Ôzaru or achieved normal-form SSj.

[Bussani]

1) I don't think SSj is a sort of adjusted form, it's just much harder to achieve in a Saiyan's normal form than it is as an Ôzaru. It's still a completely separate type of transformation. The transformation requires power and rage - two things that the Ôzaru supplies.

Goku was at 90,000 when he was first able to turn SSj (after he feels strangely calm, having completed 100G training). It is this strange calmness that allowed him to experience pure rage - the contrast between his calm and his anger was the trigger. Goku was unique in this respect: he was able to experience pure rage without his Ôzaru form. Most other Saiyans - including the previous Legend - didn't have pure anger (the same reason Vegeta couldn't transform, at first).
It's also possible that the previous Legend didn't have as much power as Goku and therefore needed the power of the Ôzaru to reach the SSj power threshold. Assuming that 90,000 is the threshold, this previous Legendary SSj could have made it with a mere 9,000... ok, perhaps the threshold is more likely to be at 300,000 (Goku's initial level when confronting Freeza), in which case the previous Legend could've been at 30,000 when he transformed.
In this case, when Goku completed his 100G training, he was not yet powerful enough, but he did gain the ability to experience pure rage (as explained above). After he rose to 300,000 by his last zenkai, his power passed the SSj threshold and he was ready to transform.

This would mean that the SSj form was, throughout Saiyan history, only seen in Ôzaru form. There simply weren't any Saiyans that both had enough power and were able to experience pure rage. Because the Saiyans never witnessed an SSj, the Golden Ôzaru became the figure of the legend, when actually the transformation itself was separate from the Ôzaru.
There also weren't any Ascendent or Transcendent Super Saiyans (SSj 2 and 3) in Saiyan history. A lot happened with the Saiyans of 'our' age - previously the Saiyans were a comparatively uninteresting lot and therefore never rose past their limits like Goku, Vegeta and the others did.

This is essentially what I meant. It makes good sense to me.

As for the golden tail, I noticed that in GT Goku's tail only turned gold when he reached SSJ3. I haven't seen the second half of GT in a while, but is this consistent? He never has a golden tail at SSJ1? If so, it may just be that Oozaru fur doesn't change color until they reach a certain level of power. Golden Oozaru has this, of course, but in humanoid form you might only hit that battle power when you're SSJ3.

[JulieYBM]

ok, perhaps the threshold is more likely to be at 300,000 (Goku's initial level when confronting Freeza), in which case the previous Legend could've been at 30,000 when he transformed.
In this case, when Goku completed his 100G training, he was not yet powerful enough, but he did gain the ability to experience pure rage (as explained above). After he rose to 300,000 by his last zenkai, his power passed the SSj threshold and he was ready to transform.

When he fought Freeza he was three million, not 300 thousand.

[Saiyan-Professor]

...2) I've always viewed Broly's form as a sort of USSj 3 (you know, one step further above Trunks' muscly form). Of course that still leaves the reduced speed thing, but I really don't remember Broly being particularly fast
I wholly agree about him being a mutant; there's nothing legendary about a big bulky powerhouse (who got beaten three times ) that had no real fighting spirit. There may have been other mutants; some of them may have even claimed the SSj transformation of their time, but their lack of a special spirit like Goku's or Vegeta's meant that they probably never went past Golden Ôzaru or achieved normal-form SSj.

Actually Broli’s form has its own classification as the “Legendary Super Saiyan” (densetsu no sûpâ saiya-jin). I think it is called “Legendary” because the Daizenshuu says that it is “instinct driven”. Which corresponds with the description we get from Ginyu and Freeza, which is the Legendary Super Saiyan will love slaughter and violence and so forth. So in that regard Broli possessed more of the Saiyan spirit than Kakarrot and Vegeta. I think Broli was pretty fast the way he avoided most of his preys attacks in movies #8 and #10.

...As for the golden tail, I noticed that in GT Goku's tail only turned gold when he reached SSJ3. I haven't seen the second half of GT in a while, but is this consistent? He never has a golden tail at SSJ1? If so, it may just be that Oozaru fur doesn't change color until they reach a certain level of power. Golden Oozaru has this, of course, but in humanoid form you might only hit that battle power when you're SSJ3.

The golden tail thing is animation inconsistency. There are some occasions in the show and in posters etc. where the tail is gold while he is in Super Saiyan 1 or 2. We had a big discussion on this issue a while back but I cannot find the thread now, it has images depicting all the things I mentioned about the animators’ goof up concerning the tail.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I'd like to read that topic.

[Saiyan-Professor]

I'd like to read that topic.

If I remember correctly he has a gold tail at the end of the episode prior to when Kakarrot fights Super #17. The one where he interrupts Vegeta’s speech after Piccolo and Dende retrieve Kakarrot out of Hell. Yet, in the next episode, his tail is normal. As seen here:

[Bussani]

The argument could be made that the tail is meant to be brown at SSJ1, and coloring it gold was the animation mistake, couldn't it? Just throwing that out there.

[Saiyan-Professor]

The argument could be made that the tail is meant to be brown at SSJ1, and coloring it gold was the animation mistake, couldn't it? Just throwing that out there.

I will return to my original argument the tail has fur which is an extension of their hair. If their hair turns gold, their tail should as well.

[Bussani]

The argument could be made that the tail is meant to be brown at SSJ1, and coloring it gold was the animation mistake, couldn't it? Just throwing that out there.

I will return to my original argument the tail has fur which is an extension of their hair. If their hair turns gold, their tail should as well.

Hair and fur could be two different things. After all, Goku doesn't turn into a black Oozaru despite having black hair.

[Saiyan-Professor]

The argument could be made that the tail is meant to be brown at SSJ1, and coloring it gold was the animation mistake, couldn't it? Just throwing that out there.

I will return to my original argument the tail has fur which is an extension of their hair. If their hair turns gold, their tail should as well.

Hair and fur could be two different things. After all, Goku doesn't turn into a black Oozaru despite having black hair.

Have every occurrence in the anime and in colored posters etc. depicted any of the Saiyans as brown Ôzarus (or would that be Ôzari) ?