SSJ Gohan vs Cell

[rereboy]

No. Hair isn`t a proof of anything. But an indication? Yes, it is.

Not really. Vegeta had no relevance to this, so it's the same with Gohan. His hair never was the same once the world tournament started.

Vegeta`s hair is already all "spiked up". In SSJ 2 the hair gets more "spiked" than in SSJ 1. For Vegeta its impossible to be even more "spiked", illustration wise. That`s why his hairstyle doesn`t change at all in SSJ 1. So he`s a special case. Goku however, gets to have even more spiked hair in SSJ 2. If Vegeta had hair like Goku, his hair would also be clearly more "spiked".
In Vegeta its impossible to tell apart his normal hair from a spiked SSJ 2 hair.
Its like Raditz could turn into a SSJ3. Could you tell the difference in the hair?

Just look at Gohan`s SSJ 1 hair and Gohan`s SSJ 2 hair when he was fighting Cell. It`s clearly different.

Totally different scenario.

How?
He`s a SSJ 1 and then he becomes a SSJ 2 fighting Cell. His hair changes. There are only two possibilites. Either the SSJ 2 changes the hair, making it more "spiked" or it doesn`t. Either way there is a mistake in the manga regarding this.

If it doesn`t change the hair then he shouldn`t have any other hairstyle, implying that the transformation changed it.

If it does change the hair, then it should be clearly visible the changes in the hairstyle since, as I showed you, Buu saga Gohan is drawn with at least two SSJ hairstyles.

And if the hair changed with the transformation when Gohan was fighting Cell, then SSJ 2`s hair is meant to be different from SSJ 1`s hair. Even Goku`s SSJ 2 hair is drawn differently than his SSJ 1 hair.

So why doesn't Vegeta's hair change? It's not a rule. We know Vegeta is different because of the aura, which is always there in the Manga when they're Super Saiyan 2. The Anime, however, forgets it sometimes.

As I said, "Vegeta`s hair is already all "spiked up". In SSJ 2 the hair gets more "spiked" than in SSJ 1. For Vegeta its impossible to be even more "spiked", illustration wise. That`s why his hairstyle doesn`t change at all in SSJ 1. So he`s a special case. Goku however, gets to have even more spiked hair in SSJ 2. If Vegeta had hair like Goku, his hair would also be clearly more "spiked".
In Vegeta its impossible to tell apart his normal hair from a spiked SSJ 2 hair.
Its like Raditz could turn into a SSJ3. Could you tell the difference in the hair?"

As I clearly showed you, Gohan has two different SSJ hairstyles during the buu saga.

Yep. And the first hairstyle was retconned into the one we see from the beginning of the world tournament to the end, as we see.

If SSJ2 makes the hair more spiked, like it is seen in the Cell saga and with SSJ2 Goku, then having Gohan with the same exact hairstyle in SSJ 1and SSJ 2 is a mistake. He should have different hairstyles.

Even worse, he is drawed with at least two different SSJ hairstyles during the same saga (buu saga) which just shows the extent of the mistake.

And, as I clearly showed you, during the Dabura fight Gohan has SSJ 2 hair without visible lightning, which is obviously a mistake since the author has already made clear in the manga that, in SSJ 2, hair changes. So he should have lightning or have the SSJ 1 hairstyle.

The hair isn't a mistake, since we've see him with that hair before he was stated "to take it up a level!" That clears it all up right there.

Really? Then how do we explain SSJ Gohan hairstyle when he was training to that tournament other than saying that there is a mistake somewhere?

What you said are just another two moments where obviously there must also be a mistake.
In those moments (the videl moment and sword moment) Gohan should have lightning or the SSJ 1 hairstyle.

He shouldn't have lighning in either part. The Videl one happened before he stated he was going beyond the Super Saiyan--and the Z-sword happened way after all of that stuff, anyway.

Then he shouldn`t have SSJ 2 hairstyle. Simple.

It makes no sense for Gohan to be in regular Super Saiyan form while Vegeta and Goku have the proper aura on the following page. That's not a mistake--that's AT not placing Gohan in Super Saiyan 2 form.

Not sure I understood what you are saying here. But basically you are suggesting that there are mistakes regarding the illustration of Gohan`s SSJ 2 form. Which is what I`m saying.

But the hair is an indication of the SSJ 2 state as much as the lightning is. Otherwise, the author wouldn`t have changed Gohan`s hair when he first transformed in SSJ 2 in the Cell Saga.

Not really. All stated Super Saiyan 2 warriors have an aura that's different from others--and the hair thing could simply be a retcon. The lightning is far more relevant then the hair, mainly because it leaves out Vegeta. If it's a significant trait, then it must apply to all of them--not just 2 of them.

Then please draw me a picture of Vegeta with even "spikier" hair than his base hair.
See what I mean?

Also, the SSJ 3 state has a different hairstyle as well, which furthermore is a indication that hair is different in each SSJ state.

Totally different form. And this also has the lightning for the most part.

Yes, it is a different form. So? SSJ 2 was shown to give the user a different hairstyle in the manga. And so did SSJ 3. Thats all I was saying.

Conclusion:

If "spikier" hair isn`t a trait of the SSJ 2 form, then Gohan shouldn`t have a different hairstyle when he first transformed into a SSJ2, because that implies that the transformation changes his hair. And neither should Goku.

If it is a trait then buu saga Gohan should have two different SSJ hairstyles. And even if the author chose to give him the same hairstyle, then he should never have illustrated Gohan with two different SSJ hairstyles during that saga, like I showed you.

Which means there are mistakes regarding this. And so there can be mistakes regarding the lightning as well as the daizenshuu implies. It`s up to interpretation.

It would be very easy to say if Gohan was a SSJ 2 in the fight with Dabura if the hairstyle had no mistakes.
This is what makes the matter rage on.

[Wojak]

Y'know...why are people so against the Daizenshû 'retconning' certain almost minute details about the series? Official record states Gohan should have been a Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Dabra. Can't we all just agree it's good and move on?

The official record is...bamparabam! The manga!
And I agree with Dayspring.

To rereboy:

Speaking of hair, the reason that Gohan's SSJ2 hairchange doesn't play a role in this debate is that it was drawn in a different arc, where Gohan was the only SSJ2.
Later, in the Buu saga, Toriyama made it more convenient for himself by makin the SSJ2 more similar to the SSJ.
It's pretty clear by Gohan's dialouge when he uses the SSJ2.
Examples are: "Let me show you a level beyond SSJ!" = He will use the SSJ2
"If I could only mobilize my full power!" = He can only use SSJ
In that same scene, it was post-the Dabdra fight.
If he already had the SSJ2 transformation, why would he be concerned?
Even Goku told him to try to mobilize his full power.

And the bangs thing is not valid when we are speaking about Gohan.
Goku is a full blood Saiya-jin, whilst Gohan is not.
Therefore, Goku's SSJ transformations are the same, and Vegeta's too.
But when it comes to Gohan we can't expect the same. Also, his hair grows, which can explain why he goes from two bangs to one bang in the tournament. The timespan until then was a couple of months.

[JulieYBM]

Y'know...why are people so against the Daizenshû 'retconning' certain almost minute details about the series? Official record states Gohan should have been a Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Dabra. Can't we all just agree it's good and move on?

The official record is...bamparabam! The manga!
And I agree with Dayspring.

Except, with the Daizenshû coming out afterward and giving an answer to a somewhat debateable argument, there's reason to believe the Manga is no longer canon in this instance.

[Wojak]

Y'know...why are people so against the Daizenshû 'retconning' certain almost minute details about the series? Official record states Gohan should have been a Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Dabra. Can't we all just agree it's good and move on?

The official record is...bamparabam! The manga!
And I agree with Dayspring.

Except, with the Daizenshû coming out afterward and giving an answer to a somewhat debateable argument, there's reason to believe the Manga is no longer canon in this instance.

As far as I know, this wasn't this much of a subject of debate since the Daizenshuu stated the opposite.
And the stamp of canon cannot be removed from the manga, not in any instance. For you maybe, who like to mix in a series of works into the story.
But I am a manga purist, so no other works will interfere with the story I've read. So, decanonification for your part maybe, but not mine.

[Dayspring]

Y'know...why are people so against the Daizenshû 'retconning' certain almost minute details about the series? Official record states Gohan should have been a Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Dabra. Can't we all just agree it's good and move on?

The official record is...bamparabam! The manga!
And I agree with Dayspring.

Except, with the Daizenshû coming out afterward and giving an answer to a somewhat debateable argument, there's reason to believe the Manga is no longer canon in this instance.

You mean official, not canon. And the Daizenshuu's random retcon was what started the debate in the first place. Think about it: is there really any reason why he should be SSJ2 here?

[JulieYBM]

The official record is...bamparabam! The manga!
And I agree with Dayspring.

Except, with the Daizenshû coming out afterward and giving an answer to a somewhat debateable argument, there's reason to believe the Manga is no longer canon in this instance.

You mean official, not canon. And the Daizenshuu's random retcon was what started the debate in the first place. Think about it: is there really any reason why he should be SSJ2 here?

He's fighting an opponent on Cell's (likely SP Cell) level in a life or death match and seems to be having a hard time. If there were ever a time to break out SSj2, it'd have been quite a while ago...

[Dayspring]

Except, with the Daizenshû coming out afterward and giving an answer to a somewhat debateable argument, there's reason to believe the Manga is no longer canon in this instance.

You mean official, not canon. And the Daizenshuu's random retcon was what started the debate in the first place. Think about it: is there really any reason why he should be SSJ2 here?

He's fighting an opponent on Cell's (likely SP Cell) level in a life or death match and seems to be having a hard time. If there were ever a time to break out SSj2, it'd have been quite a while ago...

That just implies that he should use the transformation if he could, not that he's already transformed. The manga explains why he doesn't: he can't get angry enough.

When people argue he's fighting as SSJ2, it's because they say Dabura should be able to kick his ass a regular SSJ, since Dabura is as strong as Cell. But that just implies that Cell is capable of kicking SSJ Gohan's ass, which simply isn't the case.

[Rocketman]

But that just implies that Cell is capable of kicking SSJ Gohan's ass, which simply isn't the case.

Looked like that to me, actually...

[Dayspring]

But that just implies that Cell is capable of kicking SSJ Gohan's ass, which simply isn't the case.

Looked like that to me, actually...

From what, though? We don't see them seriously fight. Besides, if Goku can do well against Cell, Gohan should be able to do better.

[Wojak]

But that just implies that Cell is capable of kicking SSJ Gohan's ass, which simply isn't the case.

Looked like that to me, actually...

From what, though? We don't see them seriously fight. Besides, if Goku can do well against Cell, Gohan should be able to do better.

When Gohan had transformed into SSJ2, Cell powered up. The heroes were shaking of Cell's power, even though Gohan was the stronger one.
I guess that Goku and Gohan combined wouldn't be able to take out Cell.
Still, the SSJ2 was much much greater than Super Perfect Cell, and could take out Cell, even with half his ki drained.

I would like to add that Gohan vs. Dabura wasn't an even fight. Gohan did terribly, and was the most wounded one after the fight.
The experienced Dabura could draw the conclusion that he would win in the next fight.

But still, I can't see how any of this concludes whether Gohan is a SSJ or a SSJ2, especially when Goku's "he may be as strong as Cell" can be interpreted widely.

Many of you that say thet Gohan is a SSJ2 have agreed to that Kaioshin was referring to the 1st form of Freeza when referring to the "one blow" thing. So why in the hell wouldn't Goku refer to Perfect Cell prior to his zenkai?
Well, Kaiohin doesn't know shit, that's for sure, but Goku knows what he is talking about, and no matter how you twist it, his statement can go both ways and it's up to oneself to determine whether you want him to be a SSJ2 or not.

I remember while reading the manga and got to the Gohan vs. Dabura part. I contantly thought "transform to the SSJ2 and decimate him, you jackass!".
So my impression can't really be changed by something that I got to know about 5 years post reading that part. To add, I came to the aura conclusion by wathing the drawings to the panel, and there wasn't any problems there.

Some of the "Gohan was SSJ2" people I see were first introduced to Dragonball via the anime, which was way more inconstistent with the aura, and I can understand the confusion and why you would like to rely on the Daizenshuu on this issue.
But I am not stating that there are manga readers that don't rely on the Daizenshuu either.

My conclusion is what you personally will accept as a part of the story, since fiction is something that you personally have to experience.
So whatever you think about this matter, it's fine.
But I don't like when people throw the guidebooks in the throat of people that don't take them into as high value as themselves.
And vice versa.

That's why I didn't want this discussion, since we take up the same points everytime, and noone convinces the others.
I can't stop anyone to do so, as it's every person's right when they register at a forum, but I don't like to see that every discussion that involves Gohan derails into a "SSJ2 or SSJ1 - Daizenshuu vs. the manga/anime" discussion.

Is it really that important? Whether Gohan was a SSJ or SSJ2, he was still a moron that got beat up for the two possible reasons:
1) The fool never learned how to transform into SSJ2 at will.
or
2) The fool never trained to just keep himself at his recent powerlevel, something that wouldn't take much effort.

We all know that Gohan get's his super holy powerup/power unlock in the end of the DBZ anyways, leaving everyone in his shadow in terms of power (except for fusions).
And still, after that, he settles down and becomes a worthless vegetable, taking his Saiya-jin ancestry too literally.

[Bussani]

But that just implies that Cell is capable of kicking SSJ Gohan's ass, which simply isn't the case.

Looked like that to me, actually...

From what, though? We don't see them seriously fight. Besides, if Goku can do well against Cell, Gohan should be able to do better.

Cell was holding back against both Goku and Gohan. Granted, Gohan was probably holding back (consciously or not) as well, but there's no way to know how they would compare, since it took SSJ2 to get Gohan going.

[Dayspring]

Looked like that to me, actually...

From what, though? We don't see them seriously fight. Besides, if Goku can do well against Cell, Gohan should be able to do better.

Cell was holding back against both Goku and Gohan. Granted, Gohan was probably holding back (consciously or not) as well, but there's no way to know how they would compare, since it took SSJ2 to get Gohan going.

Which is all fine. That just implies Gohan probably would have lost by the end of the fight had there been no SSJ2. I have no problem with this belief. But he should be able to do at least as well as Goku did against Cell before kicking the bucket (Cell had wounds and was also breathing heavy). Meanwhile people argue that because he wasn't SSJ2 against Dabura, Dabura should have got in an insta-kill against SSJ Gohan. Nothing supports that idea.

[Gabool The Wild]

I'm pretty sure it's stated that Dabra is just as strong as Cell, right?
Well, to me that would imply Gohan being SSJ during his fight with Dabra, depending on the situation.

SSJ2 Gohan was smacking Cell around like his bitch and they never really say if Dabra is as strong as Cell after he comes back from blowing himself up or not.
So, I think it could be interpreted as Cell being as strong as his "Perfect" form or his "Super Perfect" form.
So now that's debatable.

Then, there's the whole thing with how he looks in the manga.
I'm not even going to get into that, because to me there's enough evidence for both sides.

Oh, and I didn't even notice until the end of this, but

I doubt the Daizenshuu would get anything wrong, but hey, anything can happen.

I'm not too sure what form I actually think he's in.

When Toriyama gives an answer, that's what I'll stick with.Wojak summed up basically everything I just said and more.

Damn the times I decide not to be a lurker.

[TheLastSaiyan]

I always kind of figured he just couldn't reach full power after his energy got drained at the world martial arts tournament due to the fact that Kibito couldn't recover all of the lost energy. So when he fought Dabra he didn't have the energy to jump to SSJ2.

[Tyro]

Personal note: Man, I get so sick of this debate. To be perfectly honest, I've never seen a decent piece of proof posted for the "Gohan was a SSj2" side. The manga shows us proof literally page after page based on Gohan not having the SSj2 aura at all even while other SSj2s are fighting at the same time.

Dragonball 38/22, pages 180 - 181

Gohan is thinking about what Goku said to him before we went into Bobbidi's spaceship.

Goku: "Get angry, Gohan...Remember the time you fought Cell, and bring out all of the power you have. You can't lose to anyone that way-anyone!"

Gohan: "I am angry...! But still...I can't be the way I was then..."

Why can't Gohan "be the way he was then"? Because it's obvious that the SSj2 transformation turns him into a pompous fighter and he can't think clearly enough to end the fight quickly. The last time he fought as a SSj2, Cell killed his dad when he could have finished him in an instant. What he did against Kibito was most likely to scare him. In my opinion he didn't think that he would have to fight.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

There is no evidence. The only part I disagree with, Tyro--is the whole "pompous" stuff. He realized Goku was killed because of his arrogance right as soon as Cell comes back, and even states this; so if a Gohan that was only 9 yrs old was able to realize the folly in his personality, a Gohan several yrs later should, too.

I don't buy the entire anger notion, either. Vegeta said Gohan was less then himself and Goku, but they never knew what to expect if he got angry; so it's obvious from Vegeta's statement, and Goku's statement before he leaves to fight Bobbodi, that Gohan losing control and Gohan being a Super Saiyan 2 are 2 different instances. Goku asked Gohan to be what he was back then against Cell--not what he was earlier; and honestly, if Gohan just went into what he displayed at the Budokai, he would've walloped Dabra with no problem.

Honestly, you have a few instances that show this is just one of the dreadful parts of the Boo saga. Gohan was not a Super Saiyan 2, though. I just hate when some people say he was so angry about Videl (And is only shown changing into a Super Saiyan afterwards) when he's showed waving to his classmates while he's in the ring, and later showed to be pissed off when Dabra stones his mentor and good friend. It's stupid to think he would let them stay like that forever because he's scared to power-up and kill someone in one-attack. I'd rather just chalk it up to Gohan being stupid, if anything.

[Tyro]

The pompous stuff came from Dragonball volume 35/19, page 40.

Gohan just launched a Kamehameha larger than Cell's and demolished his body.

Goku: "Gohan, what are you doing?! Finish it!!! Finish Cell off!!!"

Gohan: "Already? Heh. Sorry, dad. It deserves to suffer more."

Goku: "What...What did you say?!"

Piccolo: "What's come over him?"

Goku: "...Gohan..."

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

My point is he was smart enough to realize later in vol.35/19 that his arrogance got his father killed and admitted he was going to kill Cell. A 9 yr old Gohan realized he was stupid, so there's no reason to think his IQ took a hit along with his power 7 yrs later.

Anyway, my point is if Gohan could've just did what he did at the Budokai, there would be no need for him to get angry like he did against Cell. He could simply do what he did earlier and win in a single attack.

And it's funny--Gohan is all confident that he could beat Boo (Presumably with Super Saiyan 2) if he uses all of his strength--but if he's so scared to use the form, what is he referring to? His max in Super Saiyan? Or did he suddenly have a change in heart about being too blind to finish battles in Super Saiyan 2?

[Travis Touchdown]

*throws in 2 cents*

Really today we can't really accept any type of aura anymore. In recently drawn Super Saiyan pictures, specifically Goku, Vegeta, & Onio, they're all showcasing SSJ1 but have quite the electric show going on with their auras. Even Vegetto was shown to have lightning in his aura for that one epic picture and everyone seems to agree he was only SSJ.

I know. I know. Neko Majin Z isn't canon to most. Some write it off as non-canon while others just exclude Chapter 3 like we do a handful of Dr. Slump chapters because it just can't fit. But the point is Onio, Goku, & Vegeta were drawn in SSJ by Akira Toriyama. I doubt his thought process was "I'll draw lightning around them so everyone knows this isn't canon." Judging from his interviews, it was most likely added because "this will probably look really cool!"

Point I'm shooting for is both the anime and the manga have lightning at SSJ1 at some point. So I think the hair would be the only defining feature, but that's shown to change panel by panel with it sometimes being drawn longer and/or more defined. My personal favorite theory on whether Gohan was SSJ1 or SSJ2 is the one where we all just go with our own personal beliefs since no one is able to convince the other to their way of thinking. Agree to disagree.

[Tyro]

My point is he was smart enough to realize later in vol.35/19 that his arrogance got his father killed and admitted he was going to kill Cell. A 9 yr old Gohan realized he was stupid, so there's no reason to think his IQ took a hit along with his power 7 yrs later.

Gohan was 10 years old, dawg. 11 if you count the Daizenshuu's timeline saying that the Cell Game came after his birthday.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't believe that what Gohan does while fighting as a SSj2 is up to him. He became blinded by arrogance when he first transformed, and it's always seemed to me that it stuck with him even as an adult. So realizing that it was his fault that his dad died doesn't make him less of an arrogant person as a SSj2, it just makes him mad at Cell and himself.

But we basically agree on the rest of the subject, so perhaps I'm just beating a dead horse.

Point I'm shooting for is both the anime and the manga have lightning at SSJ1 at some point.

But what do you call it when:

A) Gohan displayed a SSj2 aura at the Tenkaichi Budokai
B) Goku and Vegeta displayed a SSj2 aura when they fought one another
C) Vegeta fought Majin Boo as a SSj2 with a pretty consistant aura
D) Part A takes place before Gohan fights Dabra with a very SSj-like aura (not one spark of lightning)
E) Part B takes place at the same time Gohan becomes a SSj in front of Dabra for the second time after he knows he needs to be "like when he fought Cell"

There's just way too much evidence, in my opinion, to assume that Akira Toriyama just happened to be lazy/forgetful while drawing the Gohan vs. Dabra fight.