Dub Gokou: A Different Character?

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:20 am

NOt really much difference between the Japanese and dub Kuwabara's. Dub one is louder but thats about it.

B · Post by B » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:25 am

The YYH dub goes from good to great because of one thing:

Your a Meshi.

The Time Traveller · Post by **The Time Traveller** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:19 am

Victator Supreme wrote:NOt really much difference between the Japanese and dub Kuwabara's. Dub one is louder but thats about it.

Kuwabara had a high pitch punk voice, in English he has some kind of retarded biker voice.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:42 am

I'll second KaiserNeko's input on dub-Kuwabara. It's one of those instances where a different style voice still portrays the same personality.

Suupaa Gohan 2 · Post by **Suupaa Gohan 2** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:24 pm

Okay there's so much here that I'm not gonna quote everything so I'll just assume everyone has read the entire thread and go point by point here.

First, to jjgp1112. No offense to you personally, and I'm saying this outright because I guess I have a bad habit about wording things so that my true intentions are misinterpreted, but well, I'm not really surprised by your feelings here. First off, you don't even seem to be contributing to the discussion so much as jutting in with various points in favor of FUNi Gokou. You're just kinda saying 'oh, also this, and also that' with each post in a way that it looks like you're not even reading, or at least, not giving a shit, about what anyone else is saying. This isn't a 'let's have sub fans bash the dub' thread, but genuinely a question about the two different versions of Gokou. Personally I dislike dub Gokou but I didn't ever say he can't work for some DBZ fans who might prefer that type of hero. I just don't like it. But I'm still willing to discuss and engage in some friendly banter/arguing with people who disagree with me...you don't really seem to be interacting with anyone's posts so much as just...tossing in your two cents about Schemmel's Gokou. Maybe I'm wrong, but it certainly feels that way to me.

And besides, I've seen the way that you react on threads in the past, and you're generally a very dedicated Schemmel fanboy. I'm not trying to say this means 'your opinion doesn't count' as that would obviously be hypocritical and stupid, but it does make your opinion kinda expected, since you're notorious for being a dub fanboy. In other words, the things you're saying just seem like the typical dub fanboy responses in favor of it, without really supporting or arguing against anyone's particular points...and not everyone in this thread is disagreeing with you, either. You just seem to be picking up the vibe that people think Schemmel's Gokou is different, and running with a typical 'here are the reasons why he did a good job' line. What I'm saying is that your posts don't really seem to contribute much of anything because you're just acting in the way we'd expect you to as a Schemmel fanboy. I'm not saying you're wrong or not entitled to express your opinion, just that I think you could do a better job of playing with the whole class instead of just sitting angrily in the corner and mumbling your own two cents on the matter with little to no regard for what anyone else has said.

Oh, but I do have to quote this one,

Kunzait_83 wrote:You want REAL bad anime dubs, I mean skin crawlingly, pants shittingly, testicle shrivelingly vile and wretched dubs of the kind that most people who didn’t come into anime until the Toonami boom would never be able to fathom the existence of in the blackest corner of their minds?

I will say that there are some recent dubs that still manage to be as bad as the old late 90's-early 2000's standard...this past week, I was really sick, and being unmotivated to do much of anything constructive I spent most of my time on the couch watching TV and playing video games. Well, one weekday morning, while I was loling over how amusingly bad the new PUSA Pokemon dub is, I encountered something far, far worse...it's called Bakugan Battle Brawlers, and the show's premise is bad enough what with it being another typical Japanese cash-in series made to promote some plastic toys (not that we don't do that in the US, *cough* GI Joe *cough* ), but the dub...oh dear sweet Lord...I thought I'd heard something worse than DBZ when I first witnessed 4Kids' Yu-Gi-Oh!...I thought I had heard even worse than that when I heard their brilliant adaptation of One Piece...but this...oh God...it is the most talentless, uninspired voice acting I have ever heard, Anime or otherwise...it really must be heard to be believed.

But I agree. You people who can't tolerate modern dubs like Naruto and Bleach, and are so privileged to have the option of heading to YouTube or other easy video streaming sites and finding billions of people uploading these episodes, Japanese and subtitled, accurately for your convenience...you have no idea how lucky you are. Even if you do prefer English dubs, you still have the option of being able to find the uncut Japanese version with subs with a few mouse clicks. Many of us back in the early 2000's had to choose between FUNimation's dub of DBZ or struggling to find the all too rare fansubbed episodes online, back when torrent clients were slower than ever, and most people had dial-up internet (I, unfortunately, still do -_- ). Most people in my DBZ generation only chose the dub because they had no other choice. Whether they came to like it or not was another story, but generally the exposure to that and other sub-par English dubs was because finding the original episodes was all but impossible. Oh, you could read about them online on sites like 'DBZ Uncensored' or find summaries by people who were privileged enough to know the Japanese version, but seeing it yourself wasn't so easy. I envy this new YouTube generation. They'll never know what we went through during our fandom.

As for the off-topic discussion about YYH and Sabat's Kuwabara? I agree 100% that the YYH dub is better than the Japanese version. I know FUNi reworked a lot of dialogue to make it a little less of a literal translation at times, but I felt it worked, especially with Yusuke. Cook's Yusuke had a lot of sarcastic and smartass lines that weren't exactly the same in Japanese, but it works with his delinquent smartass character and I think it makes him more believable and engaging as a no good, but loveable, punk. As for Kuwabara, I agree that Sabat's voice is a lot more in the vein of 'let's make a cartoony voice for the character rather than speak naturally', and it can be annoying, but it never bothered me too much because it fits with his character. It would have been nice if he got a natural speaking voice out of Sabat, yes, but I don't think this voice ruined his character or made me think of him any differently (Kuwabara may not be my favorite YYH character but he does have his moments where he shines and I'm like 'wow, that's awesome', like the fight with Seaman), nor do I think it ruins the otherwise spectacular dub. I just think Sabat needs to come out of his shell a bit and stop doing as much 'cartoony' voicing for his characters and just speak more naturally.

I was having a discussion on another board (the reason I started digging up clips in the first place) and made a TL;DR post on what would be my ideal FUNimation DBZ cast (can be seen here for anyone interested), and I mentioned that I think Sabat would make a spectacular Vegeta...if he'd drop that annoying, snarling raspy sound. I know that came from originally trying to imitate Mr. Brian "Over Nine Thousand" Drummond's voice from the Ocean dub, and that gradually Sabat's Vegeta just got deeper and deeper, but it kept that horrific snarl and that's why I hate his voice...I don't much like his Piccolo, either, but at least that's a more natural sounding voice. I think that if Sabat just dropped the whole 'hey, I'm working in a cartoon, I have to punch my voice up a bit' attitude, he'd fill certain roles spectacularly. But now I'm way off-topic.

Also, whoever made the side-comment about MasakoX's Gokou, I agree. I'm glad he's not one of the voices that was made to imitate the FUNi cast (like Lanipator's Vegeta and Piccolo being dead-on Sabat impressions) and was instead just going in a generally 'Gokou-sounding' direction. I think it's great, and it would definitely fit to me as a great Gokou voice if it was slapped into a legitimate fandub (kinda like LittleKuriboh's grandpa voice in YGOTAS, which he's reprising in a legit YGO fandub, and it works). It reminds me of a sillier-sounding version of Ian Corlett's Gokou, which as I said, is my favorite English Gokou.

But more on topic...generally, like Kaboom said, my point isn't so much about his mannerisms as his goals and reasons for doing what he does. I think it was Onikage's tl;dr post I was nodding along to in agreement, because when I said 'selfish' I mostly meant that his goals never start out as 'hey let's save the universe', even if it ends up that way. Gokou not only gets sucked into most of these conflicts because he wants to fight some strong guys, but he definitely perpetuates them and has a bad habit of making a bad situation worse, but because he's Gokou, everyone loves and forgives him no matter how selfish and pig-headed he can be (to be honest, there are times when I really dislike him or at least want to smack some sense into his friends and family for just... forgiving him so easily...people say Chi-Chi is a bitch, but she's also one of the only characters with sense enough to yell at the man when he goes off and abandons his family for his own ambitions). But when you look back on half the major plotlines in the series, sure, the other characters probably couldn't have won without Gokou, but they probably would have had an easier time if he didn't fuck around with the situations and make them more complicated, either. -_-

At least he's self-aware of it, though. He apologizes to Kuririn for being selfish when he asks him to spare Vegeta, and he decides not to come back to life after Cell blows him up because he knows that he's a danger magnet with the insatiable desire to fuck shit up for everyone around him (even if he ultimately ends up un-fucking the very same scenarios). I think that makes his selfishness forgivable, because he always does the right thing in the end, and his heart is usually in the right place...but he's certainly no superhero who deserves to be touted as the saviour of the universe. Half the time when the universe is in danger, it's kinda partially his fault, anyways.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:33 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:The original topic of the thread wasn't so much about his mannerisms as it was his motivation.

His hobbies are reading and sports.

Edit: Damn, fired off as soon as I read it. Shoulda read to see if anyone had already.

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:34 pm

Onikage725 wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:The original topic of the thread wasn't so much about his mannerisms as it was his motivation.
His hobbies are reading and sports.

Beat you to it on the last page... :p. I'm surprised not more people have made that joke.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:35 pm

bkev wrote:
Onikage725 wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:The original topic of the thread wasn't so much about his mannerisms as it was his motivation.
His hobbies are reading and sports.
Beat you to it on the last page... :p. I'm surprised not more people have made that joke.

Haha yea, I saw that. It's just the first thing that popped into my head, and I was kinda surprised it hadn't popped up earlier on.

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:36 pm

Yeah, Kuwabara does that to ya.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:09 pm

Victator Supreme wrote:That does not change the fact he was also trying to stop Freeza for the good of the universe. As I said he is not a conventinal hero. He does not go on patrol, thecity does not have a Goku signal. At his core he is a martial artist. But that does not mean he will not help people in trouble. He can want to help people and want to test himself. These are not oppsing goals.

He also made a target out of his planet by confronting Freeza, which also turned the potential killing of his friends from something to do for kicks to a personal vendetta. And if it hadn't been for the SSJ transformation, which he knew nothing about, they all would have been screwed. Not saying its all his fault. His hand was forced either way because the fight with Freeza had already started when he came to. But the fact remains that either way, he was planning to confront him regardless. The difference, to me, between the two Gokus is that the dub version comes off as a guy doing so on moral grounds to save the universe from a tyrant. The original came off more as a fighter who wanted to meet another fighter, who eventually realized he had to stop his opponent because he was going to keep killing innocents. And at the end of the day, despite the best efforts of the dub script, Goku still tries to spare Freeza.

Metalwario64 · Post by **Metalwario64** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:20 pm

Onikage725 wrote:The difference, to me, between the two Gokus is that the dub version comes off as a guy doing so on moral grounds to save the universe from a tyrant.

In the dub, when Goku is talking to King Kai, he begs King Kai to let him fight him to see how strong of an opponent he would be.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:56 pm

Metalwario64 wrote: In the dub, when Goku is talking to King Kai, he begs King Kai to let him fight him to see how strong of an opponent he would be.

Instances where the dub follows the source material don't negate instances where they stray.

The best that point does is show that Goku's dub characterization is inconsistent not only with the original, but with itself.

Metalwario64 · Post by **Metalwario64** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:53 pm

Onikage725 wrote:
Metalwario64 wrote: In the dub, when Goku is talking to King Kai, he begs King Kai to let him fight him to see how strong of an opponent he would be.
Instances where the dub follows the source material don't negate instances where they stray.

So are you saying that whatever the dub has him say, even if it is close to the Japanese dialogue, is wrong?

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:40 pm

Metalwario64 wrote:
Onikage725 wrote:
Metalwario64 wrote: In the dub, when Goku is talking to King Kai, he begs King Kai to let him fight him to see how strong of an opponent he would be.
Instances where the dub follows the source material don't negate instances where they stray.
So are you saying that whatever the dub has him say, even if it is close to the Japanese dialogue, is wrong?

I'm saying exactly what I said above. Don't twist my words. When they get it right, it's because they did their jobs and translated the original story properly. And the fact that, sometimes, they actually did this doesn't negate the many, many, many times when they wrote their own dialogue with little regard for consistent narration.

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:57 pm

Onikage725 wrote:
Victator Supreme wrote:That does not change the fact he was also trying to stop Freeza for the good of the universe. As I said he is not a conventinal hero. He does not go on patrol, thecity does not have a Goku signal. At his core he is a martial artist. But that does not mean he will not help people in trouble. He can want to help people and want to test himself. These are not oppsing goals.
He also made a target out of his planet by confronting Freeza, which also turned the potential killing of his friends from something to do for kicks to a personal vendetta. And if it hadn't been for the SSJ transformation, which he knew nothing about, they all would have been screwed. Not saying its all his fault. His hand was forced either way because the fight with Freeza had already started when he came to. But the fact remains that either way, he was planning to confront him regardless. The difference, to me, between the two Gokus is that the dub version comes off as a guy doing so on moral grounds to save the universe from a tyrant. The original came off more as a fighter who wanted to meet another fighter, who eventually realized he had to stop his opponent because he was going to keep killing innocents. And at the end of the day, despite the best efforts of the dub script, Goku still tries to spare Freeza.

I'm not sure he would of went through with his plans to confront Frieza after the fight with Ginyu. He was very injured, if he had somehow of been healed and wished the others back, before Freeza attacked. I think he would of attempted to get off the planet.

I think sparing Freeza is a point in favor of him being heroic. Goku would never kill an enemy who was defenseless or begging for mercy. He spared Tao, who was every bit as cruel and sadistic as Freeza. He did not kill Junior. He may have killed at other times but those were in the heat of battle.

Jackal puFF · Post by **Jackal puFF** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:50 pm

Happy Kamehameha day! Its today in Hawaii

MCDaveG · Post by **MCDaveG** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:54 pm

According to my 6 years brother, Goku is super crazy lunatic and my brother loves him))))

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:31 pm

Original Goku is a selfish, heartless bastard of a character. That genocidal monster Vegeta comes to care more about Earth and its people than Goku does.

I thus have no problem with his character being changed, even if it does cause inconsistencies with scenes that can't be removed, like that utterly retarded/psychopathic scene where Goku spares Freeza's life and tells him to get stronger.

On a different note, why is Vegeta hated for letting a powerful enemy who he could easily kill go and get stronger, but Goku isn't?

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:43 pm

Rocketman wrote:Original Goku is a selfish, heartless bastard of a character. That genocidal monster Vegeta comes to care more about Earth and its people than Goku does.

I thus have no problem with his character being changed, even if it does cause inconsistencies with scenes that can't be removed, like that utterly retarded/psychopathic scene where Goku spares Freeza's life and tells him to get stronger.

On a different note, why is Vegeta hated for letting a powerful enemy who he could easily kill go and get stronger, but Goku isn't?

Silly Rocketman the answer is simple; “Goku” is the star of the show. Everything he does is okay but that nasty Vegeta guy is an asshole and an idiot.

Seriously could someone answer this question, I have not witnessed a sound answer to this one as of yet.

Dr. Casey · Post by **Dr. Casey** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:49 pm

I don't think there's much separating Goku's situation with Freeza from Vegeta's idiocy with Semi-Perfect Cell. Sure, Goku's execution was less messy than Vegeta's - he didn't punch his son in the gut, nor did he actively try to sacrifice someone's life - but those are some pretty inconsequential details. In the end they both let someone live that should have been killed, and endangered the lives of countless others because of it. But as for why the double standard exists...

Well, I admit that bias probably plays a very large role. Yes, Goku's quite the douchebag sometimes during the Cell and Buu sagas. I think he caught a bad case of chronic douchebaggery while on Yardrat which, judging by his 'I'll make sure to visit a few days out of every decade!' statement to Chichi, still impairs him 21 years later. I have no problems with Vegeta by the end of the series, something I can't say for Goku. However, up through the end of the Freeza Saga, Goku was a very uncontroversial character. He spared Piccolo, Vegeta, and Freeza, and that's about it (The first example being the smartest thing to do since Kami would die otherwise). The audience is quicker to forgive or tolerate Goku's screw-ups because, few mistakes aside, he's a very likeable character that has up to this point done plenty to gain the readers' respect and affection. Vegeta screws up when he's been on thin ice for about a hundred episodes (Assuming you're one of the people who dislikes Vegeta, anyway). "Damn, Vegeta. It wasn't enough that you killed your partner of twenty years, or slaughtered a bunch of innocent and defenseless Namekians, or been a complete antagonistic prat at every turn, but now you're doing your best to make sure the main timeline suffers the same fate as Trunks'? Go die in a fucking fire, Vegeta. Nobody in the story actually likes you besides Bulma anyway. Even Trunks admitted that you're a tool."

You also have to consider exactly why Vegeta's thing with Semi-Perfect Cell got people worked up; it's because he took a gamble and lost. The Z team had the situation perfectly under control, but thanks to letting Cell ascend to his perfect form, the chain of events that led to Goku's death was allowed to unfold. Sure, there were a lot of mistakes made during the Cell saga (Not the least of which being the fact that the group's comprised of a bunch of fucking morons that wouldn't listen to Bulma and just kill Dr. Gero - just spar with each other if you're that desperate for a good fight, Jesus), but I thought Vegeta's had the least justification. Desperation-fueled romantic feelings aside, I always thought Kuririn was unable to kill 18 simply because he couldn't bring himself to kill someone that didn't deserve it. Gohan messed up by wanting to prolong Cell's suffering, and it was frustrating, but I can sympathize with him because he's just a kid and his yearning for revenge was understandable. But yeah, Vegeta's lapse in judgment caused some bad shit. Goku's sparing of Freeza, on the other hand, didn't lead to much besides him journeying to Earth and being killed by Trunks in about three seconds. Goku's mistake is less frustrating because its results don't do as much to play with the audience's emotions. Gambles aren't looked upon as badly whenever things turn out okay. Is that logical? Nope. Both of my hypothetical reasons have nothing to do with logic. I think it would be hard to make a logical argument because Goku and Vegeta did do things not overly far apart (Unless I'm forgetting some details, anyway - it's been quite a while since I've watched Freeza). Those are just my thoughts as to why some, or most, people make an emotional distinction between two mistakes that are rather similar.