Do you take GT as canon?

omegacwa · Post by **omegacwa** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:54 pm

I'm not really a big fan of anything that occurs in GT, but it's ok. I also don't like 90% of the "fusion" Saga in Z, but it is Canon, so I just kind of ignore it.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:04 pm

I like the designs of the characters (other than Goku's inexplicable shift to piss-colored pants), and I like the basic ideas of the sagas (except Baby possessing Vegeta), but otherwise I utterly ignore GT.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:15 pm

Rod wrote:The only thing which I could consider canon that isn't in the manga is the Jump Special, because it was written by Toriyama

Takao Koyama wrote the screenplay.

Rod · Post by **Rod** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:31 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:
Rod wrote:The only thing which I could consider canon that isn't in the manga is the Jump Special, because it was written by Toriyama
Takao Koyama wrote the screenplay.

But Toriyama wrote the story itself right? (At least that's my understanding) If he didn't I'll still put it in the same level as before, because I just like it so much

It's the only DB movie I actually like

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:49 pm

To me, canon in DragonBall is a purely ambiguous concept. Also, like Casual Matt, I think of two different canon areas pertaining to DragonBall; Manga Canon & Anime Canon. They both have some obvious and subtle differeces, rather in character design, plot takes, etc. Therefore, this is how I consider canon:

Canon 1) -- Manga'verse:
Dr. Slump's original manga
DragonBall manga
DragonBall Online

Canon 2) -- Anime'verse
Dr. Slump's original anime
Bardock Special.
Original DragonBall Series -- Episodes 1 - 153.
Dead Zone Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 1 - 117.
Trunks Special.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 118 - 125 (till the point where the screen freezes as the 3 years quickly pass by).
Cooler's Revenge Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 125 (from the last minute of this episode when the 3 years have passed) - 176.
Super Android 13 Movie (set in "Timeline 4", where Cell never came to the past and the Androids were defeated differently).
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 177 - 194.
Bojack Unbound Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 195 - 288.
Wrath of the Dragon Movie.
"Heya!! The Return of Son Goku & Friends!" Special.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 289 - 291.
DragonBall GT Series -- Episodes 1 - 64 (right up to the final 8 minute sequence, culminating with Goku departing with Shenlong).
Goku Jr. Special.
DragonBall GT Series -- Episode 64 (the final 8 minutes, 100 years later).

With that in mind, yes, I view GT as canon with the anime universe. But not with the manga's by any means.

Travis Touchdown · Post by **Travis Touchdown** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:58 am

This is one of those touchy subjects that the wrong person gets pissed about. I took Akira Toriyama's farewell as literal as possible which allows for everyone to have their own canon. Something about him saying there will definitely be trouble in the future, but this is all he can show you and to see what happens next, you have to use your own eyes. I like my literal interpretation because most of the time it reduces arguments. I don't mind discussion and disagreements, but non-stop arguments that neither side can win eventually grinds my gears.

So me personally, I take the Bebi Saga as canon in my eyes. I can explain the plotholes everyone gripes about with no problem. I can't say the same for Super 17 though. Shadow Dragon depends too much on Super 17 & I can't come up with anything to try and explain those plotholes either, so yeah. Just the Bebi Saga for me. The way it ends almost acts like it was supposed to be the ending until the next episode with the tournament starts. Even that feels more like a little epilogue.

So after the Bebi Saga, I take A Hero's Legacy as well, mainly because it's the only Dragon Ball feature to make me cry, which I don't usually admit to lightly. After that, I take the Goku Jr. segment of Episode 64. Why do I accept part of an episode? Because you have to ignore certain chapters of Dr. Slump because they can't possibly fit. And if you do that with one AT work, I figure, "why not with this anime which is based on AT's work."

Miracles · Post by **Miracles** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:13 am

Hey, it's all Dragonball....So I except it all.

ssjcj · Post by **ssjcj** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:49 am

Rod wrote:The only thing which I could consider canon that isn't in the manga is the Jump Special, because it was written by Toriyama

I think the Jump special was based off an idea by Toriyama. This is similar to the way filler and the movies were conceived.

jda95 · Post by **jda95** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:43 am

Yes.

Why? Because it continues the series, and ends it in a perfect way while generally not creating plotholes.

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:51 am

No. Too many plotholes and I feel the characterization is too far off.

DNA · Post by **DNA** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:50 am

Canon discussions only end up in flame wars. I basically ignore the concept of canon, and embrace the concept of multiverses.

So we have the main Manga-verse, and then the Alternate-verse (Trunks's Timeline), the Chaos-verse (Cell's Timeline) and the Unseen-verse (the notorious 4th timeline)

After that we have the Anime-verse, that basically encompasses all the 3 series and respective specials, including the Jump one, some of the movies can fall here as well because...

We then have the Movie-verse, which is all the other movies and the OVA, and ends in the 12th movie, with Goku and Vegeta dead and Gohan, Goten and Trunks as the new heroes.

The final one that I consider is Awawa-verse, it's basically the timeline that follows all of Toryamas other gag mangas, and I dump all the other media that doesn't fit anywhere else in this timeline, like the 10th anniversary movie and the Televikko footage.

SweetCosmicPope · Post by **SweetCosmicPope** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:23 am

First, let me say that I don't argue this concretely. I think it's up to the individual fan to decide for themselves.

Also, allow me to say, that I love GT, and I think it's a great story, even with it's flaws.

WITH THAT: I don't take GT as canon, at all. I think it makes a nice little alternate side story, much like the movies. Non-canon, but very entertaining. There's just too much in GT that contradicts the precedents and "rules" set in DB/Z.

You also have to look at the source material. Dragonball was originally a manga, with a definitive ending (albeit an open-ended one). Of course, the open-endedness leaves any stories that happen afterwards up to the reader/viewer to accept, which is why I won't argue with anyone who accepts it. However, in my opinion, just like if you tried to say in a cartoon that Superman was created by an atomic explosion, as opposed to being sent to Earth from another planet, that doesn't make it true, as the source material explicitly contradicts this.

Shineman · Post by **Shineman** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:14 pm

Do I see GT as Canon? Why yes, yes I do.
Reason: Okay, I know GT wasn't good as GT, but it still has its moments, besides, just because it bad doesn't mean they should be treated as non canon. I mean I hate the way that every single saiyan can turn into ssj, but it canon.

And this whole Anime-verse, Manga-verse and such things like that, doesn't interest me one bit. Yes, I view Fillers as canon too (Expect for garlic jr. arc, because that just One big plot hole) because they don't change the storyline and such like that. Usually fillers are either for comedy, back story on characters that are not mention in the manga, to keep time in the anime, so the manga can get ahead, and little side stories. I mean, Frieza not killing cargo is such a big deal to go crazy? No.

So here my view as the Dragonball Canon:
Dragonball (Manga and anime (with GT in there too), expect for Garlic Jr)
Movies: Bojack unbound, Wrath of the Dragon, and Maybe Cooler's Revenge.
Specials: Bardock, History of Trunks (both versions are fine), Hero's legacy and The New special
Dragonball online is nothing more than a computer game

, as they don't count as canon.

DragonBalllKaiHD · Post by **DragonBalllKaiHD** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:16 pm

I still consider GT as canon even when it comes to manga. Seriously, I don't care what people think of me. GT is canon period. It's still part of DB franchise and I love every bit of it. If you think GT sucks because of lame fights, then that's not good reason. Yes, it has plotholes. Deal with it. DBZ has quite many plotholes and yet you still love Z? GT has many greatest moments in the history of DB franchise.

Shineman · Post by **Shineman** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:20 pm

DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:I still consider GT as canon even when it comes to manga. Seriously, I don't care what people think of me. GT is canon period. It's still part of DB franchise and I love every bit of it. If you think GT sucks because of lame fights, then that's not good reason. Yes, it has plotholes. Deal with it. DBZ has quite many plotholes and yet you still love Z? GT has many greatest moments in the history of DB franchise.

Dude i totally agree with you

Booney · Post by **Booney** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:35 pm

At first I wanted too make this huge wall of text.

Miracles wrote:Hey, it's all Dragonball....So I except it all.

But this sums it up when I think of it, I like everything Dragonball for all kinds of different reasons.
I don't care much about plotholes and all that, because I watch and read the series to relax.

When I make my own characters and stories I can't help but to check on some things to make sure it fits in the original storyline. (for me that would be the manga)
And I never really watched the movies.

But that doesn't necessarily mean I only see the manga as the Bible of Dragonball canon.
Or think less about the movies.

EDIT:

I just read the topic again.
But when asked, do you take GT as canon, does one even have a choice?
I mean canon is material produced by the original author right?
So how can we say if something isn't canon?

Wouldn't that be something like not acknowledging rain?
You can consider rain not be part of the weather but you'll still get wet when you're walking through it.

Don't know if that example makes sense but I hope it makes my point clear somehow.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:00 pm

Miracles wrote:Hey, it's all Dragonball....So I except it all.

Accept is the word you're looking for. Except means you don't include any of it.

GT has many greatest moments in the history of DB franchise.

I'll give you the ending of episode 64. What else?

DragonBalllKaiHD · Post by **DragonBalllKaiHD** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:05 pm

Rocketman wrote:
I'll give you the ending of episode 64. What else?

Oh gosh. Not you again.... You know where to look. Ask other GT fans and they will tell you what the greatest moments are in DBGT.

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:15 pm

I enjoy GT, but I enjoy it in the same way I enjoy some of the filler episodes and the movies, I just watch them for what they are and try not to think too hard about them.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:39 pm

DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:Oh gosh. Not you again.... You know where to look. Ask other GT fans and they will tell you what the greatest moments are in DBGT.

Alright then.

Hey GT fans! Besides the ending of episode 64, what are GT's "greatest moments in the history of DB franchise"?