New Unit Power List !!! What do you think about that one?

[Wojak]

You are taking statements from the manga, freezamite. But you are taking them too literally and you miss to notice other statements that have been made after your statements.
Also, you interpret statements personally, not literally sometimes.

[freezamite]

You are taking statements from the manga, freezamite. But you are taking them too literally and you miss to notice other statements that have been made after your statements.
Also, you interpret statements personally, not literally sometimes.

I don't think so. I mean, I take all what I consider important from the freeza and cell sagas, to make my list.
If someone consideres that I miss something, tell me and we can talk about it.

But think about the alternative list, it's full of contradictions with the manga.
My list maybe has 1 or 2 personal interpretations of what the characters say, but even considering that, it's still better because don't contradict the manga (at least during cell and freeza sagas, during the boo sagas there are lots of contradictions, but not only with my list, also with the manga itself and with other unit power lists).

Regards.

[Wojak]

You are taking statements from the manga, freezamite. But you are taking them too literally and you miss to notice other statements that have been made after your statements.
Also, you interpret statements personally, not literally sometimes.

I don't think so. I mean, I take all what I consider important from the freeza and cell sagas, to make my list.
If someone consideres that I miss something, tell me and we can talk about it.

You fail to see Kaio's statement about the aura as important...so you just hand pick any statement that would fit into your list?

[Daburcor]

I've always thought that Akira Toriyama adding numeric power levels was a HUGE mistake...

[Saiyan-Professor]

I've always thought that Akira Toriyama adding numeric power levels was a HUGE mistake...

I never thought it was a mistake I always thought it was pretty cool concept. The problem was that Toriyama should have used smaller numbers in the beginning instead of using such large ones by the time of the Freeza story arc, that way by the time of the Buu Saga they would have just barely made it to the millions.

[rereboy]

I've always thought that Akira Toriyama adding numeric power levels was a HUGE mistake...

It was a cool concept because it was eventually discontinued. That way it didn`t reduce the series to numbers.

[Freeza Heika]

I've always thought that Akira Toriyama adding numeric power levels was a HUGE mistake...

It was a cool concept because it was eventually discontinued. That way it didn`t reduce the series to numbers.

I agree; it was cool. The fault lies with fans. We were told to not try and use the numbers by Toriyama, via several characters. Yet, we continue to do so.

[Raki]

Why do 50% of newbie posters make power level topics?

Power Levels are what DBZ is to them.

[MCDaveG]

Why do 50% of newbie posters make power level topics?

Power Levels are what DBZ is to them.

I don't know, but I never understand that power levels, I think that some list with numbers, like 1 billion power here and 5 billion powers there and why the hell is freeza weaker then the farmer with shotgun, is pointless.

[Dayspring]

I've always thought that Akira Toriyama adding numeric power levels was a HUGE mistake...

It was a cool concept because it was eventually discontinued. That way it didn`t reduce the series to numbers.

I agree; it was cool. The fault lies with fans. We were told to not try and use the numbers by Toriyama, via several characters. Yet, we continue to do so.

True. The whole point of them was to explain that they can't be used accurately. Do we care? Nope!

[MajinVegetaSSj6]

However in Dragonball Forever, the Kanzenban official Guide, is also write that Frieza 100 % is 120.000.000 & Goku SSj is 150.000.000, so no possibility of mistake.

[Raki]

Why do power levels matter? Is there not more interesting things about Dragonball more than numbers and "strength"?

[JulieYBM]

Why do power levels matter? Is there not more interesting things about Dragonball more than numbers and "strength"?

With Shônen the little kids all care about 'strength'.

[freezamite]

You fail to see Kaio's statement about the aura as important...so you just hand pick any statement that would fit into your list?

I saw that statement, that's why I give goku's base power a strength of 300.000.
And furthermore, I demonstrated goku used kaioh ken x10 since the begining of the match.



About the ones that say that talking about units and power levels is what child's do, I completely disagree.
In that case, knowing the "power list" helps us to understand the whole cell saga.
Can you explain why the hell goku became ill in the present timeline later than in the future timeline?
Because I can explain that interpreting the manga in MY way (the one that explains most of the things said on the manga, and the one that has less contradiction with it), and this is why I need this list.

Another think you can't explain and I can, do you know why cell has a zenkay power while all the z-warriors didn't had this ability during cell saga?
It is not a contradiction of toriyama, it can be explained, but only if you know what is REALLY said on the manga.

[rereboy]

You fail to see Kaio's statement about the aura as important...so you just hand pick any statement that would fit into your list?

I saw that statement, that's why I give goku's base power a strength of 300.000.
And furthermore, I demonstrated goku used kaioh ken x10 since the begining of the match.



About the ones that say that talking about units and power levels is what child's do, I completely disagree.
In that case, knowing the "power list" helps us to understand the whole cell saga.
Can you explain why the hell goku became ill in the present timeline later than in the future timeline?
Because I can explain that interpreting the manga in MY way (the one that explains most of the things said on the manga, and the one that has less contradiction with it), and this is why I need this list.

Another think you can't explain and I can, do you know why cell has a zenkay power while all the z-warriors didn't had this ability during cell saga?
It is not a contradiction of toriyama, it can be explained, but only if you know what is REALLY said on the manga.

Goku got ill later because Trunks` timetravel had a kind of butterfly effect and ended up changing a lot of things. Goku got ill later because he was busy training for the androids and either his training essentially prevented him from becoming ill sooner or, because he was busy training for the androids, he contracted the virus later than he was supposed to.

As for the zenkais, how can you say they are non existing among Goku and his friends? Lets see, in order to have a zenkai a Sayan must first be injured greatly. When did the sayans get injured in the Cell saga?

Vegeta and Trunks got injured when facing androids 18 and 17. However, they didn`t get to fight with them again so we don`t know if they got stronger from the beating. We can only say that they were not confident in winning if they faced the androids again, but that is only natural even if they got a zenkai since the androids defeated them very easily and since they can not sense the androids power, its very difficult for them to know exactly how strong they are and how much of their power the androids used when they were fighting.

Besides that beating the only time another sayan got injured was when Vegeta was defeated by Perfect Cell. But again we can not say if he got a zenkai because he didn`t get to fight Cell again, at least not before he went to the special room of time to train again.

So exactly how can you say that there were no zenkais? The most likely scenario is that there were no GIANT zenkais besides Cell`s zenkai, but there were zenkais. One of the reasons why Cell`s zenkai was so HUGE was probably because his beating was extreme. As extreme as it could be in fact.

As for power levels in general, yes, I fail to see why they are important to the series. They are a very flawed system which got discontinued by the author because he probably didn`t want to reduce the series to a huge graphic of numbers. The whole purpose of the power levels was to get an idea of who was stronger, and we see that just by seeing what happens in the series.

[freezamite]

You fail to see Kaio's statement about the aura as important...so you just hand pick any statement that would fit into your list?

I saw that statement, that's why I give goku's base power a strength of 300.000.
And furthermore, I demonstrated goku used kaioh ken x10 since the begining of the match.



About the ones that say that talking about units and power levels is what child's do, I completely disagree.
In that case, knowing the "power list" helps us to understand the whole cell saga.
Can you explain why the hell goku became ill in the present timeline later than in the future timeline?
Because I can explain that interpreting the manga in MY way (the one that explains most of the things said on the manga, and the one that has less contradiction with it), and this is why I need this list.

Another think you can't explain and I can, do you know why cell has a zenkay power while all the z-warriors didn't had this ability during cell saga?
It is not a contradiction of toriyama, it can be explained, but only if you know what is REALLY said on the manga.

Goku got ill later because Trunks` timetravel had a kind of butterfly effect and ended up changing a lot of things. Goku got ill later because he was busy training for the androids and either his training essentially prevented him from becoming ill sooner or, because he was busy training for the androids, he contracted the virus later than he was supposed to.

As for the zenkais, how can you say they are non existing among Goku and his friends? Lets see, in order to have a zenkai a Sayan must first be injured greatly. When did the sayans get injured in the Cell saga?

Vegeta and Trunks got injured when facing androids 18 and 17. However, they didn`t get to fight with them again so we don`t know if they got stronger from the beating. We can only say that they were not confident in winning if they faced the androids again, but that is only natural even if they got a zenkai since the androids defeated them very easily and since they can not sense the androids power, its very difficult for them to know exactly how strong they are and how much of their power the androids used when they were fighting.

Besides that beating the only time another sayan got injured was when Vegeta was defeated by Perfect Cell. But again we can not say if he got a zenkai because he didn`t get to fight Cell again, at least not before he went to the special room of time to train again.

So exactly how can you say that there were no zenkais? The most likely scenario is that there were no GIANT zenkais besides Cell`s zenkai, but there were zenkais. One of the reasons why Cell`s zenkai was so HUGE was probably because his beating was extreme. As extreme as it could be in fact.

As for power levels in general, yes, I fail to see why they are important to the series. They are a very flawed system which got discontinued by the author because he probably didn`t want to reduce the series to a huge graphic of numbers. The whole purpose of the power levels was to get an idea of who was stronger, and we see that just by seeing what happens in the series.

Of course, goku became ill later because of trunks, but not for the reason you give.
Goku's heart disease was in fact provoced by the use and abuse of the kaioh ken.
Nobody appart of him gets contagied in the future timeline (there is no antivirus in that timeline) AND, most important to demonstrate that, the fact that he became ill 2 years before he does in the present timeline.

According to my interpretation of the manga, a basic SSJ like goku couldn't beat freeza (although mecha freeza wouldn't be a match for SSJ goku) or even cold (who was weaker than his son).
Trunks killed cold because cold was still trsansformed into an inferior form, but goku NEVER would do anything like that.

Future goku fought against an untransformed cold (in his most powerful form) and, according to what I think about the power he had, he needed to use the kaioh ken (probably a kaioh ken x20) to win the match.

This is what made goku to become ill so fast compared to the present line.


About the zenkay power, it doesn't works on vegeta, goku and trunks during the cell saga for two reasons:
1. Vegeta gets a serious beat by android 18. Before being defeated, he was nearly as powerful as 18.
After being healed, he continues to be inferior to 17 and 18 (and piccolo + kamisama, of course), what means that his power didn't increase.

2. All the training that goku and vegeta had during the namek saga was based on the zenkay power.
During the cell saga their training was done in other ways, what means that there was no zenkay power for them.

If cell had that final zenkay power is for this two reasons:
1. He has sayan cells that give him this capacity.
2. Unless Goku or Vegeta, who reached their base power limit and then became SSJ surpassing that limit having an attack of rage, cell had a SSJ aura because he had sayan cells, but he never had to surpass any limit, because its limit would be the same as freeza's.
And, of course, we don't know wich limit would had freeza in the case he trained as hard as goku instead of having a realaxed life.

Zenkay power only works until you reach your normal state limit, but cell was a combination of the best of the best of freeza and the sayans, this is why he has a zenkay power and the sayans don't.


Of course, this only can be explained in that way if we consider what I said about power levels.

[rereboy]

I saw that statement, that's why I give goku's base power a strength of 300.000.
And furthermore, I demonstrated goku used kaioh ken x10 since the begining of the match.



About the ones that say that talking about units and power levels is what child's do, I completely disagree.
In that case, knowing the "power list" helps us to understand the whole cell saga.
Can you explain why the hell goku became ill in the present timeline later than in the future timeline?
Because I can explain that interpreting the manga in MY way (the one that explains most of the things said on the manga, and the one that has less contradiction with it), and this is why I need this list.

Another think you can't explain and I can, do you know why cell has a zenkay power while all the z-warriors didn't had this ability during cell saga?
It is not a contradiction of toriyama, it can be explained, but only if you know what is REALLY said on the manga.

Goku got ill later because Trunks` timetravel had a kind of butterfly effect and ended up changing a lot of things. Goku got ill later because he was busy training for the androids and either his training essentially prevented him from becoming ill sooner or, because he was busy training for the androids, he contracted the virus later than he was supposed to.

As for the zenkais, how can you say they are non existing among Goku and his friends? Lets see, in order to have a zenkai a Sayan must first be injured greatly. When did the sayans get injured in the Cell saga?

Vegeta and Trunks got injured when facing androids 18 and 17. However, they didn`t get to fight with them again so we don`t know if they got stronger from the beating. We can only say that they were not confident in winning if they faced the androids again, but that is only natural even if they got a zenkai since the androids defeated them very easily and since they can not sense the androids power, its very difficult for them to know exactly how strong they are and how much of their power the androids used when they were fighting.

Besides that beating the only time another sayan got injured was when Vegeta was defeated by Perfect Cell. But again we can not say if he got a zenkai because he didn`t get to fight Cell again, at least not before he went to the special room of time to train again.

So exactly how can you say that there were no zenkais? The most likely scenario is that there were no GIANT zenkais besides Cell`s zenkai, but there were zenkais. One of the reasons why Cell`s zenkai was so HUGE was probably because his beating was extreme. As extreme as it could be in fact.

As for power levels in general, yes, I fail to see why they are important to the series. They are a very flawed system which got discontinued by the author because he probably didn`t want to reduce the series to a huge graphic of numbers. The whole purpose of the power levels was to get an idea of who was stronger, and we see that just by seeing what happens in the series.

Of course, goku became ill later because of trunks, but not for the reason you give.
Goku's heart disease was in fact provoced by the use and abuse of the kaioh ken.
Nobody appart of him gets contagied in the future timeline (there is no antivirus in that timeline) AND, most important to demonstrate that, the fact that he became ill 2 years before he does in the present timeline.

According to my interpretation of the manga, a basic SSJ like goku couldn't beat freeza (although mecha freeza wouldn't be a match for SSJ goku) or even cold (who was weaker than his son).
Trunks killed cold because cold was still trsansformed into an inferior form, but goku NEVER would do anything like that.

Future goku fought against an untransformed cold (in his most powerful form) and, according to what I think about the power he had, he needed to use the kaioh ken (probably a kaioh ken x20) to win the match.

This is what made goku to become ill so fast compared to the present line.


About the zenkay power, it doesn't works on vegeta, goku and trunks during the cell saga for two reasons:
1. Vegeta gets a serious beat by android 18. Before being defeated, he was nearly as powerful as 18.
After being healed, he continues to be inferior to 17 and 18 (and piccolo + kamisama, of course), what means that his power didn't increase.

2. All the training that goku and vegeta had during the namek saga was based on the zenkay power.
During the cell saga their training was done in other ways, what means that there was no zenkay power for them.

If cell had that final zenkay power is for this two reasons:
1. He has sayan cells that give him this capacity.
2. Unless Goku or Vegeta, who reached their base power limit and then became SSJ surpassing that limit having an attack of rage, cell had a SSJ aura because he had sayan cells, but he never had to surpass any limit, because its limit would be the same as freeza's.
And, of course, we don't know wich limit would had freeza in the case he trained as hard as goku instead of having a realaxed life.

Zenkay power only works until you reach your normal state limit, but cell was a combination of the best of the best of freeza and the sayans, this is why he has a zenkay power and the sayans don't.


Of course, this only can be explained in that way if we consider what I said about power levels.

You are just making up stuff now. You can`t use the fact that nobody else got infected as proof of what you suggest. You have no idea how infectious that virus is. As far as you know the virus might be very hard to contract and because of that fact everybody has a better chance of not being infected than being infected. And because of that nobody got infected besides Goku.
Also that theory would make more sense if Goku had a heart condition instead of a virus. The strain could fit into your theory by worsening the heart condition. However, it doesn`t work when we are talking about a virus. The virus is a Earth virus because Earth`s doctors know it well enough to develop a cure in the future, so Goku couldn`t have contracted the virus in space. He could only contracted it on Earth.
Also, Goku was training seriously for a year so he obviously put his body in strain during that year. So even if the battle with Freeza and his father was hard why did Goku got ill so much later if he was putting his body through strain all the same?

Regarding Zenkais, like I said you have no way to prove that the fighters didn`t get a Zenkai in those occasions. They didn`t fight again with the same enemies right after, so we can`t say for sure. And the fighters couldn`t sense the enemy power (androids) so its only natural of them to be unsure of winning if they were to fight again with them because they couldn`t tell if they were fighting seriously or not. And neither could we. Vegeta apparently held his ground against 18. But was she really trying or was she just playing around until she got serious? Remember that she defeated SSJ Trunks with hardly any effort and I find it hard to believe that SSJ Trunks was much weaker than SSJ Vegeta. The early fight with Vegeta was probably her just playing around but we can not be sure. And neither could Vegeta and the others, so even with the zenkais they are unsure.
Also, I remember reading somewhere, in a guide maybe, that after reaching SSJ, the zenkais become less meaningful in regards to overall power. Of course Cell is somewhat different.

[Wojak]

Bah, Freezamite, I give up. You are just assuming stuff, and I am holding the manga in my hand and I can't see whose ass you've pulled that stuff from.
Seriously, powerlevels have NOTHING to do with ANYTHING.

ALL viruses are NOT contagious by contact, learn your virology before splurting stuff out.

There is NOTHING saying that Cold was in his normal form fighting Goku.

And the thing about Cell's zenkai is just something you've found up by yourself.

[freezamite]

Bah, Freezamite, I give up. You are just assuming stuff, and I am holding the manga in my hand and I can't see whose ass you've pulled that stuff from.
Seriously, powerlevels have NOTHING to do with ANYTHING.

ALL viruses are NOT contagious by contact, learn your virology before splurting stuff out.

There is NOTHING saying that Cold was in his normal form fighting Goku.

And the thing about Cell's zenkai is just something you've found up by yourself.

1st: What I said about the virus and the heart attack, it is only a SUPOSITION, it was never said on the manga.

2nd: About goku fighting against Cold in his normal form (in the future timeline) is ABSOLUTELY LOGIC. It wasn't said on the manga, but that's what goku always had done with all his enemies, give them the oportunity to defend theirself before killing them. It is not necessary for toriyama to explain that at this point of the series.

3rd: Cell's zenkay is not a simple theory, is what really happens.
Facts:
Cell has a zenkay.
Sayan that reached their base state limit doesn't.
A normal sayan needs to surpass his base state limit to become a SSJ.
Conclusion: Cell's limit wasn't reached because he had a zenkay, although he was also in SSJ form because of their sayan cell.
Cell's limit is the same as freeza, and we don't know how far he could have arrived if he trained.


All what I say are CONCLUSIONS that can be reached reading the manga and interpreting it in a certain way.
I'm not saying all that I say is also said on the manga.

On one of my firsts messages I wrote all what I took from the manga, all the statements and facts that were directly told to us on the manga, and then I explained what were my conclusions about that.


About the virus: We don't know if that virus was contagious or not, but we know that ONLY goku is affected by the virus.
We also know that, at the timeline that goku doesn't need to fight against Cold, he can resists 3 years before getting visibly affected by the virus.

If you know what is a virus, you should also know that it isn't an intelligent animal that selects his target accurately. A virus infects all what is near to him if it can, as simple as that. And the only infected was goku, guess why.

[VegettoEX]

What the Hell is a "zenkay"...?