New Unit Power List !!! What do you think about that one?

[rereboy]

EDIT: After writing the original text I realized I had read what you wrote wrong So I deleted the original text. Sorry about that.

However I do not agree at all, reading back, that Goku would use Kaioken to defeat Cold. If he couldn`t beat him in his base form, Goku would just use SSJ. Goku never used Kaioken after becoming SSJ. There are two possible reasons for this:

- the author forgot about kaioken or
- kaioken has only disadvantages compared to SSJ and it can`t be used along with the SSJ.

The second reason is more likely. The kaioken strains the body more than the SSJ (which doesn`t strain at all after being used to it) and gives less power than the SSJ form.
Also we can assume that it can`t be used with the SSJ because Goku never did it again in the series and if he could, it would give him tremendous advantage in battle combining it with SSJ. It could even be enough to allow him to defeat Cell or the androids. Since he didn`t even try we can assume that is not possible.

So its only natural for him to completely substitute Kaioken with the SSJ state in any situation.

[Wojak]

About the virus: We don't know if that virus was contagious or not, but we know that ONLY goku is affected by the virus.
We also know that, at the timeline that goku doesn't need to fight against Cold, he can resists 3 years before getting visibly affected by the virus.

If you know what is a virus, you should also know that it isn't an intelligent animal that selects his target accurately. A virus infects all what is near to him if it can, as simple as that. And the only infected was goku, guess why.

Hey, don't come tell me about virology, I wouldn't add my thoughts into it if I didn't have a clue. I just completed a microbiology/immunology course.
The virus hasn't got a concience, no, but it's got different ways to infect, which could be via the blood, air or touch.
Goku's virus could very well be one that only survives in the blood, in the erythrocytes, and thus, unless when he trained with Piccolo and Gohan they all got cuts and mixed blood, he wouldn't be contagious at all.
So there, you are wrong.

[freezamite]

EDIT: After writing the original text I realized I had read what you wrote wrong So I deleted the original text. Sorry about that.

However I do not agree at all, reading back, that Goku would use Kaioken to defeat Cold. If he couldn`t beat him in his base form, Goku would just use SSJ. Goku never used Kaioken after becoming SSJ. There are two possible reasons for this:

- the author forgot about kaioken or
- kaioken has only disadvantages compared to SSJ and it can`t be used along with the SSJ.

The second reason is more likely. The kaioken strains the body more than the SSJ (which doesn`t strain at all after being used to it) and gives less power than the SSJ form.
Also we can assume that it can`t be used with the SSJ because Goku never did it again in the series and if he could, it would give him tremendous advantage in battle combining it with SSJ. It could even be enough to allow him to defeat Cell or the androids. Since he didn`t even try we can assume that is not possible.

So its only natural for him to completely substitute Kaioken with the SSJ state in any situation.

Is obvious that kaioh ken dissapeared in the manga series because it was inferior to the SSJ if controlled correctly.

About using kaioh ken combined with the SSJ state, it is impossible, it was said on the manga.
Kaioh ken needs a perfect control of your energy, this is why only goku can use it.
In the SSJ form, even when controlled almost perfectly (full power state), you can't have a control of your energy as big as in the normal state, and this is why is impossible to use kaioh ken while being a SSJ.

SSJ replaces Kaioh ken because when in full power, it doesn't hurt the user's body and it gives you more power than a kaioh ken x20 and because as I said, kaioh ken can only be used in base state, and in the manga series the base state can't improve when it reached its limits, so it has no sense to use kaioh ken in the cell saga because the only way you have to improve is to use stronger levels of kaioh ken (that destroy your body even at higer levels too).
But, that doesn't mean that kaioh ken isn't stronger than a basic SSJ state, like the one that goku or trunks had at the begining of the cell saga.

I'm completely sure that goku had to use kaioh ken in the future timeline in order to defeat cold, because his SSJ form wasn't trained enought to compete against cold in its true form.

Hey, don't come tell me about virology, I wouldn't add my thoughts into it if I didn't have a clue. I just completed a microbiology/immunology course.
The virus hasn't got a concience, no, but it's got different ways to infect, which could be via the blood, air or touch.
Goku's virus could very well be one that only survives in the blood, in the erythrocytes, and thus, unless when he trained with Piccolo and Gohan they all got cuts and mixed blood, he wouldn't be contagious at all.
So there, you are wrong.

Two things about that:
1st. I think toriyama never studied virology, so we have to have that in mind when talking about that point.
2nd. We don't know the kind of virus that contagied goku. What I think that happens is that the virus isn't deadly for itself if you're in a normal condition, but goku had his body destroyed by the continuous use of kaioh ken, and this was why the virus killed him.
Think about the present timeline, what I think that happens is that the virus infects goku at the same day it does in the future timeline. But in the present timeline, goku has a stronger body (because of what I explained before) that allow him to resist the illnes 2 years.

Regards.

[Wojak]

1st. I think toriyama never studied virology, so we have to have that in mind when talking about that point.
2nd. We don't know the kind of virus that contagied goku. What I think that happens is that the virus isn't deadly for itself if you're in a normal condition, but goku had his body destroyed by the continuous use of kaioh ken, and this was why the virus killed him.
Think about the present timeline, what I think that happens is that the virus infects goku at the same day it does in the future timeline. But in the present timeline, goku has a stronger body (because of what I explained before) that allow him to resist the illnes 2 years.

Regards.

I don't know if he studied virology, but it's basic knowledge in biology class...
I would like to add that even Yamcha was told to take the vaccine, even though his body wasn't strained or weakened.
Even if it transmitted through touch, it would give us that Goku's strain didn't have anything to do with it.
However, I believe that the Super Saiyan transformation kept the virus dormant, and since he trained for three years, he got the disease three years later.
It's well known that people that are healthy resist infections better, and I think that even though Goku abused Kaio-ken, his body got healed before he got infected.

[freezamite]

1st. I think toriyama never studied virology, so we have to have that in mind when talking about that point.
2nd. We don't know the kind of virus that contagied goku. What I think that happens is that the virus isn't deadly for itself if you're in a normal condition, but goku had his body destroyed by the continuous use of kaioh ken, and this was why the virus killed him.
Think about the present timeline, what I think that happens is that the virus infects goku at the same day it does in the future timeline. But in the present timeline, goku has a stronger body (because of what I explained before) that allow him to resist the illnes 2 years.

Regards.

I don't know if he studied virology, but it's basic knowledge in biology class...
I would like to add that even Yamcha was told to take the vaccine, even though his body wasn't strained or weakened.
Even if it transmitted through touch, it would give us that Goku's strain didn't have anything to do with it.
However, I believe that the Super Saiyan transformation kept the virus dormant, and since he trained for three years, he got the disease three years later.
It's well known that people that are healthy resist infections better, and I think that even though Goku abused Kaio-ken, his body got healed before he got infected.

But that virus was told to be lethal even for a SSJ, at least, that is what trunks say.
But this part is really difficult to discuss about, I mean, the manga barely gave us some clues.
What you say don't contradict what the manga says. You say goku retarded the illnes by training in its SSJ condition, and I say that it was that kaioh ken he avoided what retarded it.

Both teories are good, but I think that my theory also explains why the other z-warriors weren't infected using only what the manga says, or at least, why they didn't get ill by the infection.

Regards.

[Wojak]

You say goku retarded the illnes by training in its SSJ condition, and I say that it was that kaioh ken he avoided what retarded it.

But why would he use Kaio-ken in the other timeline? In both he had achieved the SSJ transformation.
Everything was the same in both timelines until Trunks came.
In the other timeline, Goku came, killed Freeza, and then died of the heart problem. Why would he have used Kaio-ken there? He was as comfortable with the SSJ transformation there as he was in the present timeline.
Explain this to me, please.

[freezamite]

You say goku retarded the illnes by training in its SSJ condition, and I say that it was that kaioh ken he avoided what retarded it.

But why would he use Kaio-ken in the other timeline? In both he had achieved the SSJ transformation.
Everything was the same in both timelines until Trunks came.
In the other timeline, Goku came, killed Freeza, and then died of the heart problem. Why would he have used Kaio-ken there? He was as comfortable with the SSJ transformation there as he was in the present timeline.
Explain this to me, please.

Oks, this is because a basic SSJ transformation wasn't as powerful as the highest levels of kaioh ken.
As I demonstrated using the manga, a basic SSJ, or even a trained basic SSJ have a power of around 3.000.000, much less than the 6.000.000 that goku reached with a kaioh ken x20.

Goku came and probably killed mecha freeza with his SSJ form, but instead of killing cold before he could distransform to his original form, he probably let cold to distransform and then fought with him (this is not a supposition, goku always does the same when he fights against an enemy, he never kills his opponent without giving him an opportunity to defend himself).

And is in that moment that goku needed to use kaioh ken in order to defeat cold. Remember that cold was weaker than his son, so it is possible that goku could kill him with a kaioh ken, but not with the basic SSJ he has when he arrives from yadrat.

Regards.

[rereboy]

Well actually I think that the author ( Toriyama ) confirmed that the SSJ represents an increase of around 50 times the base power ( can anyone confirm? ). And Goku is only shown to go to 20 times his base power with the Kaioken.

Of course you could argue that when Goku transformed for the first time in SSJ it was not yet the 50 times increase because I don`t know if the author was referring to basic SSJ or full powered SSJ when he talked about the 50 times increase.

[Wojak]

He mentioned that he initially wanted a 10x increase, and settled with 50 instead.
It's clear that Goku would have chosen Kaio-ken over the SSJ if they were equal, since Goku prefers a calm state of mind.

[freezamite]

Well actually I think that the author ( Toriyama ) confirmed that the SSJ represents an increase of around 50 times the base power ( can anyone confirm? ). And Goku is only shown to go to 20 times his base power with the Kaioken.

Of course you could argue that when Goku transformed for the first time in SSJ it was not yet the 50 times increase because I don`t know if the author was referring to basic SSJ or full powered SSJ when he talked about the 50 times increase.

The full powered SSJ is around 40 - 50 times stronger than the base state, in fact, I think that is that what he refered to.
Remember that the Full Power SSJ is a SSJ that has mastered this state to a point that he can controll it nearly as well as if it was his normal state.
The full power SSJ is not a special transformation, it is just the normal SSJ but controlled perfectly.

It's clear that Goku would have chosen Kaio-ken over the SSJ if they were equal, since Goku prefers a calm state of mind.

No, you have to be in a calm state of mind if you want to use the kaioh ken, but while you're using it you are in an extremely dangerous state that even destrois your body.

The SSJ puts you into a state of anger, but it is less dangerous than kaioh ken, and this is why goku, once he can transform into a SSJ, trains to master this transformation instead of trying to go into further and stronger levels of kaioh ken.

[rereboy]

Well actually I think that the author ( Toriyama ) confirmed that the SSJ represents an increase of around 50 times the base power ( can anyone confirm? ). And Goku is only shown to go to 20 times his base power with the Kaioken.

Of course you could argue that when Goku transformed for the first time in SSJ it was not yet the 50 times increase because I don`t know if the author was referring to basic SSJ or full powered SSJ when he talked about the 50 times increase.

The full powered SSJ is around 40 - 50 times stronger than the base state, in fact, I think that is that what he refered to.
Remember that the Full Power SSJ is a SSJ that has mastered this state to a point that he can controll it nearly as well as if it was his normal state.
The full power SSJ is not a special transformation, it is just the normal SSJ but controlled perfectly.

It's clear that Goku would have chosen Kaio-ken over the SSJ if they were equal, since Goku prefers a calm state of mind.

No, you have to be in a calm state of mind if you want to use the kaioh ken, but while you're using it you are in an extremely dangerous state that even destrois your body.

The SSJ puts you into a state of anger, but it is less dangerous than kaioh ken, and this is why goku, once he can transform into a SSJ, trains to master this transformation instead of trying to go into further and stronger levels of kaioh ken.

Yes, but you still have more power in full powered SSJ than in basic SSJ.

[Wojak]

Well actually I think that the author ( Toriyama ) confirmed that the SSJ represents an increase of around 50 times the base power ( can anyone confirm? ). And Goku is only shown to go to 20 times his base power with the Kaioken.

Of course you could argue that when Goku transformed for the first time in SSJ it was not yet the 50 times increase because I don`t know if the author was referring to basic SSJ or full powered SSJ when he talked about the 50 times increase.

The full powered SSJ is around 40 - 50 times stronger than the base state, in fact, I think that is that what he refered to.
Remember that the Full Power SSJ is a SSJ that has mastered this state to a point that he can controll it nearly as well as if it was his normal state.
The full power SSJ is not a special transformation, it is just the normal SSJ but controlled perfectly.

It's clear that Goku would have chosen Kaio-ken over the SSJ if they were equal, since Goku prefers a calm state of mind.

No, you have to be in a calm state of mind if you want to use the kaioh ken, but while you're using it you are in an extremely dangerous state that even destrois your body.

The SSJ puts you into a state of anger, but it is less dangerous than kaioh ken, and this is why goku, once he can transform into a SSJ, trains to master this transformation instead of trying to go into further and stronger levels of kaioh ken.

Yes, but you still have more power in full powered SSJ than in basic SSJ.

Yep, I think the same.
The SSJ had simply more potential to be evolved than the Kaio-ken, simply.
And about the hypothesis that Goku would have let Cold to transform: no way.
It's not even sure he could transform. Goku didn't wait for Jeice and Baata to fully power up, he just toyed with them. And the only reason he waited for Freeza to power up to 100% was to stall him, so that Gohan and Piccolo could get into the space ship.

Another thing, Goku was going to fight 2nd form Cell if Trunks and Vegeta failed, and I don't think that he was going to let Cell become perfect.
Also, he fought Buu at any state he was in, he didn't even plan to let him become stronger.

[freezamite]

The full powered SSJ is around 40 - 50 times stronger than the base state, in fact, I think that is that what he refered to.
Remember that the Full Power SSJ is a SSJ that has mastered this state to a point that he can controll it nearly as well as if it was his normal state.
The full power SSJ is not a special transformation, it is just the normal SSJ but controlled perfectly.
No, you have to be in a calm state of mind if you want to use the kaioh ken, but while you're using it you are in an extremely dangerous state that even destrois your body.

The SSJ puts you into a state of anger, but it is less dangerous than kaioh ken, and this is why goku, once he can transform into a SSJ, trains to master this transformation instead of trying to go into further and stronger levels of kaioh ken.

Yes, but you still have more power in full powered SSJ than in basic SSJ.

Yep, I think the same.
The SSJ had simply more potential to be evolved than the Kaio-ken, simply.
And about the hypothesis that Goku would have let Cold to transform: no way.
It's not even sure he could transform. Goku didn't wait for Jeice and Baata to fully power up, he just toyed with them. And the only reason he waited for Freeza to power up to 100% was to stall him, so that Gohan and Piccolo could get into the space ship.

Another thing, Goku was going to fight 2nd form Cell if Trunks and Vegeta failed, and I don't think that he was going to let Cell become perfect.
Also, he fought Buu at any state he was in, he didn't even plan to let him become stronger.

Both of you are right in that the SSJ has more potential than the kaioh ken, but when cold arrived to earth, goku still hadn't trained his SSJ form, so at that point of the series, he was stronger with a kaioh ken x20 than with the untrained basic SSJ form.

About what you say, Jeice and Baata powered up to their max, look at the manga, goku play with them until they used their best attack (a combined one), and still failed.

When he fought against freeza, he could perfectly kill freeza before he could reach his 100% but he prefered to wait patiently.

Even against cell, he gave him a majic been to restore his energy before the fight against gohan.

Goku always give their enemies an opportunity to show what they can do, even if that puts in danger the whole earth.

Regards.

[Senzu_Bean]

... goku still hadn't trained his SSJ form, so at that point of the series, he was stronger with a kaioh ken x20 than with the untrained basic SSJ form.

No he wasn't. Otherwise he wouldn't defeated Freeza with SSJ where failed miserable with Kaioken x20.

[freezamite]

... goku still hadn't trained his SSJ form, so at that point of the series, he was stronger with a kaioh ken x20 than with the untrained basic SSJ form.

No he wasn't. Otherwise he wouldn't defeated Freeza with SSJ where failed miserable with Kaioken x20.

You're talking about the fight on namek I suppose.
Well, what happened there is that when goku used kaioh ken x20 freeza wasn't really hurt.
Goku could win freeza in his SSJ form because when goku transformed freeza was bad injured by the genkidama, and his power was reduced considerably as you can see in my list.

[Raki]

... goku still hadn't trained his SSJ form, so at that point of the series, he was stronger with a kaioh ken x20 than with the untrained basic SSJ form.

No he wasn't. Otherwise he wouldn't defeated Freeza with SSJ where failed miserable with Kaioken x20.

You're talking about the fight on namek I suppose.
Well, what happened there is that when goku used kaioh ken x20 freeza wasn't really hurt.
Goku could win freeza in his SSJ form because when goku transformed freeza was bad injured by the genkidama, and his power was reduced considerably as you can see in my list.

Freeza was barely hurt by the Genkidama.

[freezamite]

No he wasn't. Otherwise he wouldn't defeated Freeza with SSJ where failed miserable with Kaioken x20.

You're talking about the fight on namek I suppose.
Well, what happened there is that when goku used kaioh ken x20 freeza wasn't really hurt.
Goku could win freeza in his SSJ form because when goku transformed freeza was bad injured by the genkidama, and his power was reduced considerably as you can see in my list.

Freeza was barely hurt by the Genkidama.

No, he was BADLY hurt by the genkidama (said by himself), the fact that his power was reduced nearly to 1.500.000 at his 50% (when he should have a power of around 6.000.000) is the proof of that.

[Senzu_Bean]

... goku still hadn't trained his SSJ form, so at that point of the series, he was stronger with a kaioh ken x20 than with the untrained basic SSJ form.

No he wasn't. Otherwise he wouldn't defeated Freeza with SSJ where failed miserable with Kaioken x20.

You're talking about the fight on namek I suppose.
Well, what happened there is that when goku used kaioh ken x20 freeza wasn't really hurt.
Goku could win freeza in his SSJ form because when goku transformed freeza was bad injured by the genkidama, and his power was reduced considerably as you can see in my list.

Then do you believe the multiplier for SSJ is...?

[freezamite]

No he wasn't. Otherwise he wouldn't defeated Freeza with SSJ where failed miserable with Kaioken x20.

You're talking about the fight on namek I suppose.
Well, what happened there is that when goku used kaioh ken x20 freeza wasn't really hurt.
Goku could win freeza in his SSJ form because when goku transformed freeza was bad injured by the genkidama, and his power was reduced considerably as you can see in my list.

Then do you believe the multiplier for SSJ is...?

I think it isn't a multiplier. In full power, when totally mastered, it multiplies goku's base power by near 50.
But that can't be applied to vegeta, who had a base power of about three times higher than goku.

I would describe the SSJ as an adder, not a multiplier.

[Senzu_Bean]

You're talking about the fight on namek I suppose.
Well, what happened there is that when goku used kaioh ken x20 freeza wasn't really hurt.
Goku could win freeza in his SSJ form because when goku transformed freeza was bad injured by the genkidama, and his power was reduced considerably as you can see in my list.

Then do you believe the multiplier for SSJ is...?

I think it isn't a multiplier. In its full power, when totally mastered, it multiplies goku's base power by 50.
But that can't be applied to vegeta, who had a base power of about three times higher than goku's.

I would describe the SSJ as an adder, not a multiplier.

Although Akira Toriyama stated SSJ is a 50x multiplier and he wasn't certainly talking about "MSSJ".

And when are you referring that Vegeta was stronger than Goku? In Namek?