Freeza vs Cell: Who was the better villain?

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Saiyavenger2941]

Is Daemeon Clarke related to Cam Clarke? (Liquid from MGS, for those who are uneducated in awesome.)

Some of us children of Streamline know him mostly as the original Kaneda, and as Narutaki from Doomed Megalopolis. Not that this makes his Liquid any less ass kicking times 100,000.

There was also this little cartoon called Ninja Turtle...

Anyhow, no, I’ve never heard of there being a relation of any sort between the two anywhere. Clearly if they were related, a vast quantity of Cam’s talent and awesome would have also been a part of Dameon’s gene pool (and this is clearly not the case).

Ah, I see. Still, pretty easy to assume a relation, though, considering their names, profession, and awesome villain voicing!

[KKZ]

It seems to me like you're talking more about Wakamoto throughout his entire (storied) seiyu career. For purposes of this discussion, I think the more pertinent comparison would be JUST his Cell performance vs Nakao's Freeza. And by THAT standard, well... KKZ has it right, Nakao > Wakamoto. I love Wakamoto's Cell every bit as much as the next guy, but comparing ANY DBZ villain performance next to Nakao's Freeza just isn't remotely fair.

Nakao's performance within DBZ is what I was referring to, yes. I'm not familiar with any other roles the two actors have had besides Wakamoto as Mr. Sinister in the Japanese X-Men dub (Which is amazing btw).

[Kunzait_83]

b

[jjgp1112]

I think this bit of dialogue exemplifies Freeza (it's the dub, but bear with me):

Muori: It won't do you any good, I don't know where they are!
Freeza: 1) You're lying, and 2)You already hindered my search by destroying the scouters. Normally, that would be more than enough reason for me to kill you. But I'm feeling generous, so I'll give you one last chance to save yourself.
Muori: And why should I trust you?! Why should I believe the words of a murderer?!
Freeza: Oh well, you caught me - I was planning to kill you even if you talked.

So...Does anybody agree with me on this?

[freezamite]

Freeza is a dictator, a good villian, but a dictator after all.
Cell had more work behind. He could act like a dictator, but he did thinks that a typical villian of db never would do like forgiving trunks instead of killing him.

I love both villians although they appear in two "oposite" sagas. While freeza saga was more about adventure and fights (in my opinion, the best fights of the whole manga are in freeza's saga), cell saga was a piece of art in terms of plot development.

[Rocketman]

cell saga was a piece of art in terms of plot development.

No, it wasn't. The Cell Saga was a complete snarl of conflicting plotlines that can't be untangled.

[Saiyavenger2941]

I think this bit of dialogue exemplifies Freeza (it's the dub, but bear with me):

Muori: It won't do you any good, I don't know where they are!
Freeza: 1) You're lying, and 2)You already hindered my search by destroying the scouters. Normally, that would be more than enough reason for me to kill you. But I'm feeling generous, so I'll give you one last chance to save yourself.
Muori: And why should I trust you?! Why should I believe the words of a murderer?!
Freeza: Oh well, you caught me - I was planning to kill you even if you talked.

So...Does anybody agree with me on this?

Completely.

[jjgp1112]

It's even crazier that it's the dub.

That's why I hate Season 3. Funi actually did a good, hell, maybe even better, job of capturing Frieza's personality in the Season 2 redub, but then it gets thrown all away with the over-ambiguous dialogue and silly one-liners.

[Innagadadavida]

cell saga was a piece of art in terms of plot development.

That's kind of funny, considering how flexible Toriyama was when he was creating the plot. He didn't have much of a direction at all. The Cell saga is an uninspired recycled mess that had no heart. And it ended in cliche repetitive garbage that we had seen twice before. That's my opinion.

So, if I had to choose between Freeza and Cell, I'd choose Freeza. But seriously, Majin Buu was the best. That motherfucker wasn't just a threat to the Earth or Universe. He was a threat to all of creation. Living Realm, Heaven, Hell; there was no place to go that Majin Buu wouldn't find you and end your existence.

That's why I hate Season 3. Funi actually did a good, hell, maybe even better, job of capturing Freeza's personality in the Season 2 redub, but then it gets thrown all away with the over-ambiguous dialogue and silly one-liners.

Uhhh... Are you aware of how much they changed in the redub? Almost nothing. They redubbed for the sake of poor acting. They didn't change the script much.

[jjgp1112]

That's why I hate Season 3. Funi actually did a good, hell, maybe even better, job of capturing Freeza's personality in the Season 2 redub, but then it gets thrown all away with the over-ambiguous dialogue and silly one-liners.

Uhhh... Are you aware of how much they changed in the redub? Almost nothing. They redubbed for the sake of poor acting. They didn't change the script much.

Oh wait, I worded it wrong, I meant everything before the Ginyu saga. So that's not even really a redub since most people don't even count the Ocean dub

[Krakabeast]

But seriously, Majin Buu was the best. That motherfucker wasn't just a threat to the Earth or Universe. He was a threat to all of creation. Living Realm, Heaven, Hell; there was no place to go that Majin Buu wouldn't find you and end your existence.

I completely agree with you here, and this pretty much sums up why I love Boo so much. He's basically the Freddy Krueger of Dragon Ball, even though Freddy Krueger is a lame villain in general. D'oh!

As for Freeza and Cell being a better villain, it's just too complex to answer since both are alike in many ways. As for character design, Cell for the win. As for VA, original - Freeza, dubbed - Cell.

[Bussani]

Heh. Wakamoto's kinda like the male equivalent of Hiromi Tsuru: he's been in damn near just about every-fucking-thing since the olden, olden days of anime.

(In no particular order) Original Macross, original Gatchaman, original Mobile Suit Gundam, Lupin III, Hokuto no Ken, Windaria, Guyver (both original OAVs), Black Magic M-66, Yotoden, original Gunbuster, Violence Jack, They Were 11, Samurai Troopers, Urotsukidoji, Crying Freeman, AD Police, RG Veda, Giant Robo, Tenchi Muyo, Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure, Street Fighter II V, Hellsing, Slayers, Mezzo Forte, Sailor Moon, Mezzon Ikkoku, Dancougar…

Don't forget more recently, Konjiki no Gash Bell!!

Click here to hear Cell sing about melons.

Also, seeing me after class was a joke, if it wasn't obvious.

[KKZ]

(In no particular order) Original Macross, original Gatchaman, original Mobile Suit Gundam, Lupin III, Hokuto no Ken, Windaria, Guyver (both original OAVs), Black Magic M-66, Yotoden, original Gunbuster, Violence Jack, They Were 11, Samurai Troopers, Urotsukidoji, Crying Freeman, AD Police, RG Veda, Giant Robo, Tenchi Muyo, Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure, Street Fighter II V, Hellsing, Slayers, Mezzo Forte, Sailor Moon, Mezzon Ikkoku, Dancougar…

Oh yeah, I can't believe I forgot about Shuren, Hol Horse, Bison, and that priest dude from Hellsing (It's been so long since I've seen it). I've seen most of the unbolded series, but not with subs. I also remember hearing him in Berserk as Gambino and in Basilisk as Yagyu.

That's kind of funny, considering how flexible Toriyama was when he was creating the plot. He didn't have much of a direction at all. The Cell saga is an uninspired recycled mess that had no heart. And it ended in cliche repetitive garbage that we had seen twice before. That's my opinion.

Freeza Saga

+ Chi Chi tries to go to Namek in order to bring her son back to Earth (Not sure if this is filler or not but I'll add it anyway)
+ Krillin sacrifices himself to save Dende by pushing him out of Freeza's way
+ Vegeta pours his heart out to Goku before finally dying at the hands of Freeza
+ Goku continues to fight Freeza for the benefit of his family, friends, and the entire universe
+ Piccolo takes a blast and sacrifices himself (again) to save his friends
+ Goku goes Super Saiyan after the death of Krillin and Piccolo
- Goku selfishly stays on Namek to fight Freeza instead of going back to Earth and formulating a plan
+ Goku tries to warn Freeza from his own attack, then gives Freeza one final chance to redeem himself by giving him enough power to escape from Namek despite everything Freeza had done

Cell Saga

+ Has one of, if not the only scene in the entire series where Goku and Chi Chi actually seem to love eachother
+ Krillin explodes with anger after Cell absorbs the woman he fell in love with
+ Trunks reserves his full power in the interest of his father's pride and honor
+ Krillin trusts 16
+ The Z Warriors worry over Pre-SSJ2 Gohan going up against Cell (Namely Piccolo who was enraged by Goku's seemingly rash decision), and all eventually help him later on
+ Chi Chi grieves over the possible death of her son once he enters the battlefield
+ More and more of Gohan's hidden strength becomes unbounded as he witnesses the pain and suffering of his father and close friends, and finally the death of 16
+ Goku, even if it was all for naught, sacrifices himself in order to kill Cell
+ After the death of Trunks, Vegeta finally realizes the love and pride Trunks took in him and goes apeshit against Cell
+ Goku telepathically encourages Gohan to give it his all against Cell
+ The Z Warriors all join Gohan in order to beat Cell
+ Krillin takes 18 to safety, and later wishes for her and 17 to be restored to the way they were before
+ Goku requests to not be wished back to Earth in the interest of his family and friends

Seven pluses and one minus vs. thirteen pluses. Yep, Freeza Saga is much more heartfelt.

[Innagadadavida]

Seven pluses and one minus vs. thirteen pluses. Yep, Freeza Saga is much more heartfelt.

A) I never said the Freeza Saga was more heartfelt.
B) "That's my opinion"
C) If we're going to make up some sort of point system for our opinions, I give the Cell saga -100 points for Cell, and -1000 for Gohan. I give the Freeza Saga - 100 for 3rd form Freeza and -200 for Gohan. I give the Buu saga +100 for Gohan, +100,000,000,000 for Vegetto, and +2 for Gotenks.

[jjgp1112]

Buu saga had the coolest transformations, but the storyline was WEAK.

[KKZ]

A) I never said the Freeza Saga was more heartfelt.

I made the comparison because it's a Freeza vs. Cell thread, but forgive me since you did not in fact allude to the Freeza Saga being more heartfelt, my bad. I still don't see how the Cell Saga has "no heart" though.

"That's my opinion"

This is true, yes.

Buu saga had the coolest transformations, but the storyline was WEAK.

The storyline is okay, if a little wild. Buu Saga was about style/cool fights (and if you watch the dub, good acting + writing) more than anything.

[Saiyavenger2941]

Seven pluses and one minus vs. thirteen pluses. Yep, Freeza Saga is much more heartfelt.

A) I never said the Freeza Saga was more heartfelt.
B) "That's my opinion"
C) If we're going to make up some sort of point system for our opinions, I give the Cell saga -100 points for Cell, and -1000 for Gohan. I give the Freeza Saga - 100 for 3rd form Freeza and -200 for Gohan. I give the Buu saga +100 for Gohan, +100,000,000,000 for Vegetto, and +2 for Gotenks.

Gohan: +100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Videl: +100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

[Ramoro-san]

[...] Freeza is by far the more nuanced character. Cell's cool and all, but his whole schtick is predicated upon him being an artificial being who'd just been created in a lab. [...]

Freeza's a more rounded character, and has room to be. He’s not some clean slate of a test tube baby that’s fresh out of a gene splicer. He's been around the block for a whole lifetime, running a gigantic, galaxy spanning mega-criminal empire [...]

He’s pampered, spoiled, disgustingly rich, charismatic as hell, was raised with impeccable manners, lives a cushy lifestyle, has a taste for fine wine, has the psych-profile and temperament of a sociopathic sadist and bloodthirsty psycho killer [...]

It’s kinda hard to top that kind of an act insofar as sheer villainy goes. Cell may be vastly more powerful, and made from the genes of… just about anyone and everyone that’s thrown a punch or Ki attack in the series up to that point, including Freeza himself. But for all that, he’s STILL nothing more than a freaking test tube baby, though I suppose not one without points of interest [...]

Badass? Most definitely. Interesting? Up to a point, yeah. But next to Freeza? Freeza gets my vote easy. [...]

On the surface, Cell’s not really all that interesting (apart from his basic concept and the insect look, which are both awesome) [...]

Even still though, for all that, I still agree that Freeza comes out by far and away the more interesting character, for all the reasons stated by myself and others in this thread.

Damn. I say ditto to this whole epic character analysis (from page 2) you wrote there, Kunzait_83. I was going to come in here and say something about Freeza's more complex character/villainy, but I could not have said it better. Brilliant! I like the way you think. Very holistic and precise.

Freeza is the best villain in DBZ, as far as I'm concerned. He's very human, whereas most of the villains in the remainder of DBZ are mere creations, whether of magic or of science, who have incomplete psyches, artificial intelligence, and no past. That renders them inherently flat characters.