YouTube / Toei Mass Takedown Discussion

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:42 pm

Yeah. SquareEnix yanked down my Mad World/Advent Children AMV that I put a whole two hours of work and an "old school B&W film" filter on in WMM.

Funny part was that I had made about eight or nine Advent Children AMVs on that same account and they only pulled down the one that was halfway popular. All my other stuff stayed up until I pulled them down myself just because I didn't want them up anymore.

B · Post by B » Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:46 pm

Popularity has a massive effect on YouTube, it's not even funny. Some guy put up every single Beyblade epsiode(154) and the movie and nothing ever happened. But then, he began putting up a FUNimation title(Burst Angel, I believe) and after two episodes the entire account got wiped out.

DragonBalllKaiHD · Post by **DragonBalllKaiHD** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:13 pm

I'm wondering about this. What materials TFS used that is belong to? I assume it was Toei's, from what I heard? Sorry if I have not watched DBZ Abridged. The reason I'm asking this is because I have heard or seen the video about Funimation liking TFS's works. So, suppose TFS used Funimation's "Remastered" footages, wouldn't that be alright since the copyrights belong to Funimation, not Toei's?

Just wondering.

Char Aznable · Post by **Char Aznable** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:15 pm

DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:I'm wondering about this. What material did TFS use? Funimation's or Toei's footage? Sorry if I have not watched DBZ Abridged. The reason I'm asking this is because I have heard or seen the video about Funimation liking TFS's works. So, suppose TFS used Funimation's "Remastered" footages, wouldn't that be alright since the copyrights belong to Funimation, not Toei's?

Just wondering.

Considering the fact that they were in widescreen to begin with, the colors were bright, and I believe KaiserNeko has stated that he picked up the early season sets, it's safe to say the video used was from FUNimation's season sets.

That still doesn't matter when it comes down to the fact though that Dragon Ball is a Toei-animated product.

SHINOBI-03 · Post by **SHINOBI-03** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:16 pm

DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:I'm wondering about this. What material did TFS use? Funimation's or Toei's footage? Sorry if I have not watched DBZ Abridged. The reason I'm asking this is because I have heard or seen the video about Funimation liking TFS's works. So, suppose TFS used Funimation's "Remastered" footages, wouldn't that be alright since the copyrights belong to Funimation, not Toei's?

Just wondering.

They used FUNimation's footage

hui43210 · Post by **hui43210** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:22 pm

I go to the lake for a week and this is what happens!

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:28 pm

SHINOBI-03 wrote:
DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:I'm wondering about this. What material did TFS use? Funimation's or Toei's footage? Sorry if I have not watched DBZ Abridged. The reason I'm asking this is because I have heard or seen the video about Funimation liking TFS's works. So, suppose TFS used Funimation's "Remastered" footages, wouldn't that be alright since the copyrights belong to Funimation, not Toei's?

Just wondering.
They used FUNimation's footage

So wait then, WTF!?

Ok Toei gave legal rights to FUNimation allowing then the licensing of Dragonball in America. TFS used the American footage with silent permission of FUNimation, as in they dont give a damn. So what legal right does Toei have in this situation? I mean this is a Japanese company dealing with American law, laws that weren't broken. FUNimation has the distribution rights, they didn't care. WHATS THE PROBLEM?

gallagtor · Post by **gallagtor** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:33 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:
SHINOBI-03 wrote:
DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:I'm wondering about this. What material did TFS use? Funimation's or Toei's footage? Sorry if I have not watched DBZ Abridged. The reason I'm asking this is because I have heard or seen the video about Funimation liking TFS's works. So, suppose TFS used Funimation's "Remastered" footages, wouldn't that be alright since the copyrights belong to Funimation, not Toei's?

Just wondering.
They used FUNimation's footage
So wait then, WTF!?

Ok Toei gave legal rights to FUNimation allowing then the licensing of Dragonball in America. TFS used the American footage with silent permission of FUNimation, as in they dont give a damn. So what legal right does Toei have in this situation? I mean this is a Japanese company dealing with American law, laws that weren't broken. FUNimation has the distribution rights, they didn't care. WHATS THE PROBLEM?

It's Toei's footage. FUNimation has the right to dub and distribute it. Dragon Ball belongs to Toei, "remastered" or not. Laws were in fact broken. Just because FUNi didn't act doesn't mean they were giving their permission.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:49 pm

gallagtor wrote: It's Toei's footage. FUNimation has the right to dub and distribute it. Dragon Ball belongs to Toei, "remastered" or not. Laws were in fact broken. Just because FUNi didn't act doesn't mean they were giving their permission.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Youtube is an American Company. Which means legal actions are based on American law. Since FUNimation is the legal owner to Dragonball in America they showed be the ones to challenge the actions of TFS not Toei. I can understand Toei's concern(see the CNN theard) when it comes to pirating but this wasn't pirated, this was an innocent parody no one got hurt and it wasn't taking away from sales.

Here, let me ask this. If I were to take Leonardo da Vinci's "Mona Lisa" then make a copy of it, give it to a friend who made a Copy of it tampered with it and then sold it to a guy name Fred for him to mess with, would Fred's tampering still be Leonardo da Vinci's "Mona Lisa" or would it now be Fred's interpritation of the Mona Lisa?

gallagtor · Post by **gallagtor** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:03 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:
gallagtor wrote: It's Toei's footage. FUNimation has the right to dub and distribute it. Dragon Ball belongs to Toei, "remastered" or not. Laws were in fact broken. Just because FUNi didn't act doesn't mean they were giving their permission.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Youtube is an American Company. Which means legal actions are based on American law. Since FUNimation is the legal owner to Dragonball in America they showed be the ones to challenge the actions of TFS not Toei. I can understand Toei's concern(see the CNN theard) when it comes to pirating but this wasn't pirated, this was an innocent parody no one got hurt and it wasn't taking away from sales.

Here, let me ask this. If I were to take Leonardo da Vinci's "Mona Lisa" then make a copy of it, give it to a friend who made a Copy of it tampered with it and then sold it to a guy name Fred for him to mess with, would Fred's tampering still be Leonardo da Vinci's "Mona Lisa" or would it now be Fred's interpritation of the Mona Lisa?

I'm not saying that Toei's actions are a good thing, but they have the right to do so if they wish. If you look at any Dragon Ball DVD, you'll see a Toei logo. FUNi can distribute Dragon Ball with their own dub added on, but that doesn't mean that Toei has given up compete ownership of the property to FUNi in the US.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:14 pm

gallagtor wrote:
I'm not saying that Toei's actions are a good thing, but they have the right to do so if they wish. If you look at any Dragon Ball DVD, you'll see a Toei logo. FUNi can distribute Dragon Ball with their own dub added on, but that doesn't mean that Toei has given up compete ownership of the property to FUNi in the US.

I know your not I'm just mad at Toei's actions. To me they aren't justified when the real issue, you know the pirates, are still up and running.

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:48 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote: Since FUNimation is the legal owner to Dragonball in America they showed be the ones to challenge the actions of TFS not Toei.

No, FUNimation is the legal distributor of Dragonball in America. This means they pay money to the owner to do whatever they want within the reach of the contract with the material. But the owner of the Dragonball anime in every way, shape and form is Toei, and they have every right to protect their property from being freely available on the internet.

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:Here, let me ask this. If I were to take Leonardo da Vinci's "Mona Lisa" then make a copy of it, give it to a friend who made a Copy of it tampered with it and then sold it to a guy name Fred for him to mess with, would Fred's tampering still be Leonardo da Vinci's "Mona Lisa" or would it now be Fred's interpritation of the Mona Lisa?

That's not the same at all, and you know that.

Mewzard · Post by **Mewzard** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:53 pm

Couldn't Funimation hire on TFS and officially release this as "another dub" since they have the right to distribute and dub it in America? As long as Toei gets their recognition and money, it should be fine. Funi got away with all those edits in the old days.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:54 pm

Adamant wrote:
SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:Here, let me ask this. If I were to take Leonardo da Vinci's "Mona Lisa" then make a copy of it, give it to a friend who made a Copy of it tampered with it and then sold it to a guy name Fred for him to mess with, would Fred's tampering still be Leonardo da Vinci's "Mona Lisa" or would it now be Fred's interpritation of the Mona Lisa?
That's not the same at all, and you know that.

What do mean?

Toei sold copies of Dragonball to Funimation to Distribute. Funimation made their own alterations(voice acting, music and "Digitally remastering") and then sold it to the public. the people at TFS(Fred) bought a copy and then made their own parody of the series.

xzero · Post by **xzero** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:00 pm

I still find it somewhat strange that a Japanese company had a legal right to order an American website to take action against users like that. Legally, Toei owns Dragonball, and Funimation has the distribution rights domestically. But if you're operating in the U.S., American fair use and parody laws would apply.

Let's assume that DBZ was Funimation's property entirely, like Funi animated it and everything. There is no debate that Funi would have no legal recourse against a parody, just as Eminem can't sue Weird Al for parodying any of his songs. As a constitutional matter, TeamFourStar (or at least its American members) are protected by parody and fair use provisions under the United States Code due to the Fifth Amendment.

I'm currently in law school but I haven't taken the IP class yet, so I can't speak as someone who is fully informed about the subject, but can someone here with actual legal training explain why Toei is able to do this? I would think that they certainly can't sue YouTube over TeamFourStar's parodies.

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:00 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:
Toei sold copies of Dragonball to Funimation to Distribute. Funimation made their own alterations(voice acting, music and "Digitally remastering") and then sold it to the public. the people at TFS(Fred) bought a copy and then made their own parody of the series.

Buying a copy of a DVD does not give you the right to distribute the content on this DVD. FUNimation bought distribution rights to Dragonball from Toei, the owners of the license. TFS did not. Hence, FUNimation are allowed to distribute Dragonball, while TFS is not.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:01 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:
Adamant wrote:
SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:Here, let me ask this. If I were to take Leonardo da Vinci's "Mona Lisa" then make a copy of it, give it to a friend who made a Copy of it tampered with it and then sold it to a guy name Fred for him to mess with, would Fred's tampering still be Leonardo da Vinci's "Mona Lisa" or would it now be Fred's interpritation of the Mona Lisa?
That's not the same at all, and you know that.
What do mean?

Toei sold copies of Dragonball to Funimation to Distribute. Funimation made their own alterations(voice acting, music and "Digitally remastering") and then sold it to the public. the people at TFS(Fred) bought a copy and then made their own parody of the series.

I'm no expert on this stuff, but TFS didn't buy the right to edit and distribute said edit like FUNi did. It would be like buying a CD of someone's song, ripping it, cutting out a few minutes and splicing in minutes from another song, and saying, "well I altered it, it's not the same song any more."

They own the DVD, not the footage. Toei, as the owners, are within their right to say how it's distributed. This is why you get FBI warnings (for you USers anyway) saying "do not copy or redistribute" or whatever.

Or am I off the mark here?

fps_anth · Post by **fps_anth** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:03 pm

If anything, Abridged was creating sales for Dragon Ball DVDs. I showed Abridged to a friend who watched a bit of DBZ when he was a kid. He thought it was hilarious (obviously) and now wants to watch the rest of DBZ.

ABRIDGED IS A MARKETING TOOL, WHY IS IT GONE?!?

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:12 pm

Adamant wrote:
SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:
Toei sold copies of Dragonball to Funimation to Distribute. Funimation made their own alterations(voice acting, music and "Digitally remastering") and then sold it to the public. the people at TFS(Fred) bought a copy and then made their own parody of the series.
Buying a copy of a DVD does not give you the right to distribute the content on this DVD. FUNimation bought distribution rights to Dragonball from Toei, the owners of the license. TFS did not. Hence, FUNimation are allowed to distribute Dragonball, while TFS is not.

But TFS isn't distributing Dragonball. There is no profit to be made, this is all in good fun. They aren't even showing the whole show, it's a parody. I like the Weird Al reference because that's a perfect example. He uses the same rhythm and background music but they are all just parodies. The original musicians can get upset but its perfectly legal.

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:12 pm

xzero wrote:I still find it somewhat strange that a Japanese company had a legal right to order an American website to take action against users like that. Legally, Toei owns Dragonball, and Funimation has the distribution rights domestically. But if you're operating in the U.S., American fair use and parody laws would apply.

Let's assume that DBZ was Funimation's property entirely, like Funi animated it and everything. There is no debate that Funi would have no legal recourse against a parody, just as Eminem can't sue Weird Al for parodying any of his songs. As a constitutional matter, TeamFourStar (or at least its American members) are protected by parody and fair use provisions under the United States Code due to the Fifth Amendment.

I'm currently in law school but I haven't taken the IP class yet, so I can't speak as someone who is fully informed about the subject, but can someone here with actual legal training explain why Toei is able to do this? I would think that they certainly can't sue YouTube over TeamFourStar's parodies.

I'm not at all familiar with American law, so I might very well be wrong here, but I would say that taking video footage you do not have right to and adding your self-produced sound to it would fall outside the law. No matter what you hear if you put the sound on, TFS is still illegally distributing Dragonball video, and this video belongs to Toei. TFS would have to produce their own video footage if they want their parody to be legal.