YouTube / Toei Mass Takedown Discussion

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:18 pm

Adamant wrote:
xzero wrote:I still find it somewhat strange that a Japanese company had a legal right to order an American website to take action against users like that. Legally, Toei owns Dragonball, and Funimation has the distribution rights domestically. But if you're operating in the U.S., American fair use and parody laws would apply.

Let's assume that DBZ was Funimation's property entirely, like Funi animated it and everything. There is no debate that Funi would have no legal recourse against a parody, just as Eminem can't sue Weird Al for parodying any of his songs. As a constitutional matter, TeamFourStar (or at least its American members) are protected by parody and fair use provisions under the United States Code due to the Fifth Amendment.

I'm currently in law school but I haven't taken the IP class yet, so I can't speak as someone who is fully informed about the subject, but can someone here with actual legal training explain why Toei is able to do this? I would think that they certainly can't sue YouTube over TeamFourStar's parodies.
I'm not at all familiar with American law, so I might very well be wrong here, but I would say that taking video footage you do not have right to and adding your self-produced sound to it would fall outside the law. No matter what you hear if you put the sound on, TFS is still illegally distributing Dragonball video, and this video belongs to Toei. TFS would have to produce their own video footage if they want their parody to be legal.

Weird Al has done similar work with the music business and he's been around for 20+ years. TFS isn't even after a profit. In fact they even recognize everyone involved with the series and in fact support the original releases. That little tid bit may be small but its the equivalent of using a quote(or someone else work) in a term paper but citing the original author.

DragonBalllKaiHD · Post by **DragonBalllKaiHD** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:21 pm

One guy made a comment.

I can't believe how widespread this has been. I'm not saying you all are an idiot but... Haven't you figured it out yet?! Nothing you say will bring TFS back here. Toei has a right to take down TFS's videos regardless of what they did. They used Toei's footage. Parody or not, they broke the law. Funimation doesn't own the footages. Funimation is just a distribution company who provides dub. Swearing or doing some stupid image such as gun points at Toei's Cat logo with blood spilled out of its head is just really plain dumb. Yes, what you are doing is really stupid. In my opinion, the protest only makes it worse. I'm not saying you should "Shut up and Sit down" approach, but you all have taken it a bit too far.

In reponse

Fieryone233 wrote: No they don't, DBZ A is protected under US Copyright Laws seeing as it's non-profit, and parody.

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:24 pm

Okay, so I got ahold of the Fair Use law here:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html

TFS fails paragraph (3) - they've used large amounts of Dragonball video footage without permission, which breaks with the law.

Dragonball's video footage is a far greater part of the Dragonball anime than the rythm and background music is to Eminem's songs, that's how Weird Al can get away with it and TFS can't.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:36 pm

Adamant wrote:Okay, so I got ahold of the Fair Use law here:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html

TFS fails paragraph (3) - they've used large amounts of Dragonball video footage without permission, which breaks with the law.

Dragonball's video footage is a far greater part of the Dragonball anime than the rythm and background music is to Eminem's songs, that's how Weird Al can get away with it and TFS can't.

"in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole"

I think the amount of original work holds up in relation to the copyrighted work. They use their own music and voices, if you ask me the ratio is pretty balanced in terms of what is copyrighted and what is not.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:37 pm

The thing is, practically nobody actually cares what Toei wants or thinks. "Legal" =/= "right." Toei is doing absolutely nothing but shooting themselves in the foot with dick moves like this. It's a big "fuck you" to the fandom and the people they expect to financially support them by buying their products.

Plus, it's a useless effort in the first place because, as we're already seeing, they can't completely stop these videos from being re-uploaded and spread around.

TeamFourStar's stuff WILL be all over the internet, no matter how much Toei's bigwigs cry about it. It cannot be stopped.

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:40 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote: I think the amount of original work holds up in relation to the copyrighted work. They use their own music and voices, if you ask me the ratio is pretty balanced in terms of what is copyrighted and what is not.

So does FUNimation, and their dub is pretty much a parody anyway. Are you saying it's protected by the Fair Use law, too?

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:46 pm

Adamant wrote:
SparkyPantsMcGee wrote: I think the amount of original work holds up in relation to the copyrighted work. They use their own music and voices, if you ask me the ratio is pretty balanced in terms of what is copyrighted and what is not.
So does FUNimation, and their dub is pretty much a parody anyway. Are you saying it's protected by the Fair Use law, too?

I don't see what your getting at. I can see an argument in favor of Toei if TFS was selling their work. That is a whole other ball park. However there was no profit to be gain in fact like someone else pointed out, its actually a good promotion for the actual show. There was no harm being down, nothing was being pirated, no one was crossing any legal lines. So I don't see why its illegal to do what they did under American law.

hui43210 · Post by **hui43210** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:52 pm

Has tfs made any statement about where they go from here?

gallagtor · Post by **gallagtor** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:54 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote: Weird Al has done similar work with the music business and he's been around for 20+ years.

From Wikipedia:

"One of Yankovic's most controversial parodies was 1996's "Amish Paradise", based on "Gangsta's Paradise" by hip-hop artist Coolio, which, in turn, was based on "Pastime Paradise" by Stevie Wonder. Reportedly, Coolio's label gave Yankovic the impression that Coolio had granted permission to record the parody, but Coolio maintains that he never did. While Coolio claimed he was upset, legal action never materialized, and Coolio accepted royalty payments for the song. After this controversy, Yankovic has always made sure to speak directly with the artist of every song he parodied."

So, from this I can gather that Weird Al is granted permission to use other artists' copyrighted material in much the same way Toei grants it to FUNimation, but if he doesn't have permission (Like TFS), the copyright holder may choose to take legal action. Also, Weird Al possibly pays royatlies to all the artists he parodies.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:04 pm

gallagtor wrote:
From Wikipedia:
"One of Yankovic's most controversial parodies was 1996's "Amish Paradise", based on "Gangsta's Paradise" by hip-hop artist Coolio, which, in turn, was based on "Pastime Paradise" by Stevie Wonder. Reportedly, Coolio's label gave Yankovic the impression that Coolio had granted permission to record the parody, but Coolio maintains that he never did. While Coolio claimed he was upset, legal action never materialized, and Coolio accepted royalty payments for the song. After this controversy, Yankovic has always made sure to speak directly with the artist of every song he parodied."
So, from this I can gather that Weird Al is granted permission to use other artists' copyrighted material in much the same way Toei grants it to FUNimation, but if he doesn't have permission (Like TFS), the copyright holder may choose to take legal action. Also, Weird Al possibly pays royatlies to all the artists he parodies.

I doubt he pays royalties and the article also says " legal action never materialized". Meaning no one but the two parties where involved. This would be similar to Funimation not making a move on TFS. I believe Weird Al's actions would be a courtesy thing because he's not out to make enemies but rather entertain people. I wounder what would happen if TFS went to Toei and asked for permission.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:05 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:TeamFourStar's stuff WILL be all over the internet, no matter how much Toei's bigwigs cry about it. It cannot be stopped.

I doubt they have anything specific against TFS. It was all based on viewcount and, if the guy watching the videos wasn't much of an English speaker, he probably didn't even realize what he was calling out for deletion.

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:06 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote: I don't see what your getting at. I can see an argument in favor of Toei if TFS was selling their work. That is a whole other ball park.

So if FUNi had streamed their dub online instead of selling it to TV channels, it would be fair use, is that what you're saying?

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:11 pm

Adamant wrote:
SparkyPantsMcGee wrote: I don't see what your getting at. I can see an argument in favor of Toei if TFS was selling their work. That is a whole other ball park.
So if FUNi had streamed their dub online instead of selling it to TV channels, it would be fair use, is that what you're saying?

seeing as how it is there own audio, there own script I can see how someone can argue towards a yes, I mean as long as they acknowledged Toei animation in the credits I guess its legal. As long as they weren't out for money it would be no different than TFS.

gallagtor · Post by **gallagtor** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:18 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote: I doubt he pays royalties and the article also says " legal action never materialized". Meaning no one but the two parties where involved. This would be similar to Funimation not making a move on TFS. I believe Weird Al's actions would be a courtesy thing because he's not out to make enemies but rather entertain people. I wounder what would happen if TFS went to Toei and asked for permission.

That wasn't a really great example.. Here's another instance involving Weird Al that pretty much parallels the Team Four Star fiasco.

In 2006, Yankovic gained James Blunt's permission to record a parody of "You're Beautiful". However, after Yankovic had recorded "You're Pitiful", Blunt's label, Atlantic Records, rescinded this permission. The parody was pulled from Yankovic's Straight Outta Lynwood due to his label's unwillingness to "go to war" with Atlantic. Yankovic released the song as a free download on his MySpace profile, as well as his official website, and plays it in concert, since it was not Blunt himself objecting to the parody.[55] The music video for "White & Nerdy" references this dispute, showing Yankovic defacing Atlantic Records' Wikipedia article with the words "YOU SUCK!"

James didn't mind the parody, but ultimately, the evil record label (Toei) has the final say in the matter.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:27 pm

gallagtor wrote:
SparkyPantsMcGee wrote: I doubt he pays royalties and the article also says " legal action never materialized". Meaning no one but the two parties where involved. This would be similar to Funimation not making a move on TFS. I believe Weird Al's actions would be a courtesy thing because he's not out to make enemies but rather entertain people. I wounder what would happen if TFS went to Toei and asked for permission.
That wasn't a really great example.. Here's another instance involving Weird Al that pretty much parallels the Team Four Star fiasco.
In 2006, Yankovic gained James Blunt's permission to record a parody of "You're Beautiful". However, after Yankovic had recorded "You're Pitiful", Blunt's label, Atlantic Records, rescinded this permission. The parody was pulled from Yankovic's Straight Outta Lynwood due to his label's unwillingness to "go to war" with Atlantic. Yankovic released the song as a free download on his MySpace profile, as well as his official website, and plays it in concert, since it was not Blunt himself objecting to the parody.[55] The music video for "White & Nerdy" references this dispute, showing Yankovic defacing Atlantic Records' Wikipedia article with the words "YOU SUCK!"
James didn't mind the parody, but ultimately, the evil record label (Toei) has the final say in the matter.

Thats a perfect example actually. He was still able to get away with posting it on his myspace though. So maybe TFS just needs to move to a different site.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:36 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:
Adamant wrote:
SparkyPantsMcGee wrote: I don't see what your getting at. I can see an argument in favor of Toei if TFS was selling their work. That is a whole other ball park.
So if FUNi had streamed their dub online instead of selling it to TV channels, it would be fair use, is that what you're saying?
seeing as how it is there own audio, there own script I can see how someone can argue towards a yes, I mean as long as they acknowledged Toei animation in the credits I guess its legal. As long as they weren't out for money it would be no different than TFS.

I think you're missing the point. It isn't about whether Toei should or shouldn't have removed it, it's about whether they have the right to. It doesn't matter if someone's making money off of using your footage or not, if they're distributing it without your permission, you're within your rights to stop it. As I say, I'm not even going to touch whether Toei is right or wrong for doing this, but they are within their rights to do it regardless.

I'm not talking about audio or scripts either, just footage, video. They own that. To use it legally in any way other than watching it in the privacy of your own home you need their permission. Most DVDs will say something like this in the warning at the start.

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:36 pm

Adamant wrote:Okay, so I got ahold of the Fair Use law here:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html

TFS fails paragraph (3) - they've used large amounts of Dragonball video footage without permission, which breaks with the law.

Dragonball's video footage is a far greater part of the Dragonball anime than the rythm and background music is to Eminem's songs, that's how Weird Al can get away with it and TFS can't.

Weird Al always asks the permission of the person's music he is parodying.

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece · Post by **Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:44 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I'm having a brain-fart. What's that law that says that the more there are of something, the more likely that the majority of them are going to be terrible...?

I want to say Sturgeon's Law, but I'm not sure that it's the one in particular you're thinking of.

(90% of everything is crap.)

Also, wow this situation sucks. As much as I'd love to say that we're in the right here, we technically aren't.

MarcFBR · Post by **MarcFBR** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:47 pm

I gotta be honest, I'm sitting here drinking a nice cool drink, and enjoying this thread.

It's like a really stupid sitcom you just can't turn away from.

It's sorta like watching Homer or Peter decide in their head something is right, and listening to their logic about it.

I can't WAIT to tune in later and see when someone builds their own animation studio across the street from Toei Animation... Toeier Animation, which is open to the public, and don't forget.. while you're there, shop at their best seller department complete with its own coffee bar. Or drop by their music shop also with its own coffee bar. Or perhaps you'd rather visit their international coffee bar complete with its own little book department which has its own super teeny tiny coffee bar inside. And a selection of tiny adult magazines.

And finally, as you enter the hall of mirrors, you might notice, you're not alone. For you see, I'm shopping with you!

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:04 pm

Adamant wrote:Okay, so I got ahold of the Fair Use law here:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html

TFS fails paragraph (3) - they've used large amounts of Dragonball video footage without permission, which breaks with the law.

the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole

They've used relatively little compared to how much there is. What is it, a couple hours out of 13 or so?

Kanzenshuu

YouTube / Toei Mass Takedown Discussion

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