Do you think that SSJ4 should be considered...

'lo Legends · Post by **'lo Legends** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:47 am

I know I'm making a lot of topics, but...

Do you think that Super Saiyan 4 should be considered Super Saiyan?

I don't.

It isn't anything like Super Saiyan. You don't need to be in a fit of rage to transform, you don't get golden hair, your eyes don't change turquoise.

Also, while Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 seem to be power ups of the original Super Saiyan form, Super Saiyan 4 is completely different. It is not a power up of Super Saiyan 3.

I for one think that it should've been called something completely different. It has nothing in common with the Super Saiyan form except that it gives a boost in power.

Pedro The Hutt · Post by **Pedro The Hutt** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:10 am

That's TOEI for you. >.>;; I personally found the SSJ thing had gone far enough with form three. XD

SpaceKappa · Post by **SpaceKappa** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:56 pm

I have an idea! Let's try to have at least one thread on the forum where no one complains about or tries to discredit GT!

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:30 pm

Is that even possible? Maybe if the topic was about... Japanese voice acting... or something.

Endishiki · Post by **Endishiki** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:40 pm

It's a mixture between SSj and the Oozaru form. Possibly with Kaio-ken thrown into the mix (for the red fur). It isn't a true SSj form, no, but it is a mixture.

Chuquita · Post by **Chuquita** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:01 pm

But other than ssj4, what else would they call it?

Endishiki · Post by **Endishiki** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:14 pm

"Super Gokuu 4"?

Sun_Wukong · Post by **Sun_Wukong** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:42 pm

Isnt that what Bandai called it on their actionfigures? Anyway, I always considered SSJ 4 a hybrid Oozaru, since you have to reach it to transform. Wich makes me wonder, could any of the Saiyans before Goku have been able to reach SSJ4 if they new how?

Jord · Post by **Jord** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:37 pm

It isn't anything like Super Saiyan. You don't need to be in a fit of rage to transform, you don't get golden hair, your eyes don't change turquoise.

Also, while Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 seem to be power ups of the original Super Saiyan form, Super Saiyan 4 is completely different. It is not a power up of Super Saiyan 3.

Who says that what we call Super Saiyan 1 IS Super Saiyan? When te legend about the Super Saiyan is told there is no mention of golden hair or anything. When a character attains a SSJ form, they just assume it's Super Siayan 1,2, or 3 . Fort all we know SSJ4 may be SSJ 1....

Heritic · Post by **Heritic** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:56 pm

I never gave much thought to whether SSJ4 really was a Super Saiyan level or not. To be honest, I don't really care, it can just be a power up if no one likes calling it Super Saiyan. This is probably due to my own lack of creativity but, where else could the SSJ design go after SSJ3? Hair longer than SSJ3?

SonGokuGT · Post by **SonGokuGT** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:00 pm

Yeah, I think it's definately a step beyond Ohzaru, although you could make the arguement that Goku can power up to it as if it were a regular Super Saiyan level.

Caracal · Post by **Caracal** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:04 pm

The thought that SSj4 might be the true form of SSj has crossed my mind, mainly because it requires the Oozaru and the Saiyan Tail, both things that were key to Saiyans.

Weither or not it's an SSj form doesn't matter to me as I like it...
*braces himself for an attack*
In my eyes it offers something original and different to the gold hair we've been used to.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:27 pm

I would agree with you, that "SSJ4" may not have been the best label for this GT transformation. On the one hand the Saiyan needs SSJ to trigger the transformation to begin with, but unlike the previous stages it's not the "next stage". Goku and Vegeta could've probably reached "SSJ4" as soon as the mastered their original SSJ transformations.

Someone once suggested that it should've been called "Super Ozaru 2", which in a way would make a lot more sense.

Michi · Post by **Michi** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:22 am

Well um yeah. The whole introduction of fusion was that going beyond SSJ3 was going to be a bit much, and they needed a new way to get stronger characters. This is why SSJ4 is... kinda out of place. O_o But it's not even made by Toriyama so I wouldn't worry too much about it being a real form of super saiyajin or not. ^^

Super Saiyan Knuckles · Post by **Super Saiyan Knuckles** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:29 pm

Deus ex Machina wrote:I would agree with you, that "SSJ4" may not have been the best label for this GT transformation. On the one hand the Saiyan needs SSJ to trigger the transformation to begin with, but unlike the previous stages it's not the "next stage". Goku and Vegeta could've probably reached "SSJ4" as soon as the mastered their original SSJ transformations.

Someone once suggested that it should've been called "Super Ozaru 2", which in a way would make a lot more sense.

I agree with that. If they wanted it to be more Super Saiyan like, they should've left the fur gold. It would still look a bit weird though. You know what I dislike most about the SSJ4 look? The gold aura looks very starange now. They should've turned it red or something.

alakazam^ · Post by **alakazam^** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:13 pm

Wed is pwetty ^^

omae no kaasan · Post by **omae no kaasan** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:28 pm

Okay, let me preface this....

This is assuming that GT takes place. Ok? I happen to like GT, like Toriyama, (even though I doubt he knows much about it beyond the first few episodes ((and if he did he's surely forgotten by now)) )
but let's just say we're counting GT, ok?

Now if we wanna count GT that means we're gonna have to accept some movies and episodes, which makes sense, since it IS TOEI'S WORK and Toriyama was never EVER in complete control of the animation anyway.

That considered, we're going to have to look at this from the animation standpoint. Which, I reiterate, if you're asking a question about GT, you better damn well be doing. So if we do that, let's consider the original story of Super Saiyan. We clearly see a Golden Ape there. And let's not forget, Saiyan's then didn't take off tails. Gokou and gang did. (this is also the argument for why Goten and Trunks shouldn't have tails) So it is common DB otaku knowledge that IN THE ANIMATION (I can't stress that enough) the Super Saiyan we are familliar with is merely a transformation that results from not having a tail. Is this accurate? You know what, who gives a damn, but it makes the most sense of anything I've ever heard.

So, back to SS4. If Golden Ape is the true SS form and then learning to harness/upgrade that power results in a new form, we can safely say that SS4 is ACTUALLY True SS2.

Sound crazy? Wanna flame me? Be my guest, but this makes more sense than 99% of the garbage you'll hear on DrG0n BO1z DbZ Sup3r P4g3 and guess what, no one cares and knowing the reality behind it isn't the point since it is a cartoon.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:38 pm

Hmm, well. 1) We see an Oozaru in the anime sequence, no signs of gold. 2) Goten and Trunks were born without tails. 3) Just because you have a tail and go SSJ (which, IMO, is impossbile) you wont go to 'SSJ4'. That requires extra parts. Therefore, I doubt it's the 'true' SSJ form. It's a mix of Oozaru and SSJ. Hence why I say Super Oozaru 2 suits it better.

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:14 pm

I have to agree with Xyex here. Even putting all that into consideration about the animation (which even then you're still going to have contradictions but meh we can ignore that for the pure sake of argument), you still have a few issues.

Point #1: In the animation a Super Saiyan was merely the greatest of the Saiyans and the greatest warrior in their known universe, however that Super Saiyan could only control his power in the Oozaru form.

The legend says DIDDLY SQUAT about ANY transformations for Super Saiyan, so if you're going to go by strict legend basis from the animation "Super Saiyan 4" still would not quite work for this, anymore than the classic Super Saiyan transformations would, it simply negates anything. If you are going to strictly follow the legendary Super Saiyan legend verbatim from what Vegeta tells us in the Freeza story arch, then Goku was, is, and always will be >THE< Legendary Super Saiyan by the nature that he's the strongest Saiyan, and warrior in the universe for his time. The transformations merely are side effects of this fact. Therefore if we are legend strictists in our analysis of Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 4, neither is aptly named.

So how did the golden hair bit become synonymous with Super Saiyan (filler and all), then? Simple, Vegeta concocted the idea that only a Super Saiyan could defeat Freeza. When Goku made this WIIIIIIIIILD transformation, and his Ki was clearly above Freeza's everyone assumed that was the sign of the Super Saiyan, and when others hit it, it became a level, Super Saiyan, and two further levels and several sub levels were made using the same form of Saiyan only power up. So it became known as Super Saiyan, following strict legend of course, much as the Highlander, "There can only be one" and clearly that's Goku.

Now as for the matter of Super Saiyan 4, calling it thus is severely lacking for what it is. It is a transformation from the Oozaru form 2, not any of the other "Super Saiyan" as they are called transformations. in this they are only related in that - 1) they are Saiyan transformations 2) The Legendary Super Saiyan (Goku) can use it and 3) it gives a huge boost of power much like Super Saiyan transformations do. It is NOT based on either the "Super Saiyan" powerups, nor is it related to the legend except that the legendary Super Saiyan can use it.

So what is Super Saiyan 4 related to? Clearly it is related to the Oozaru form. That stated the following can be said about the Oozaru levels of powerups.

Normal Saiyan -> Oozaru -> Oozaru 2 (golden) -> Oozaru 3 (morphed together with base state to create what is called SSJ4).

Essentially one could Call it Oozaru fusion too if they so wanted, as it's the fusion of Oozaru form 2 (golden) and base state, to create a new one. It is however NOT truly based either on the "Super Saiyan" transformations, nor the legend.

'lo Legends · Post by **'lo Legends** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:02 pm

Hmm...So, lets see here...

What you are saying, is that there is only one true super saiyan, Goku. The gold hair/gold aura power-ups are merely a power-up, and not someone becoming a "Super Saiyan" due to the fact that there is only one super saiyan, Goku, who is the pinnacle of all of the saiyans.

Therefore, SS4 wouldn't be a super saiyan form, but another powerup given the name Super Saiyan due to the fact that the characters in the show are totally lost on what it really is.

That makes sense, I think the same thing happened with the Animators. They had no idea what to call it, so they called it SS4.