Do you think that SSJ4 should be considered...

[omae no kaasan]

Hmm, well. 1) We see an Oozaru in the anime sequence, no signs of gold. 2) Goten and Trunks were born without tails. 3) Just because you have a tail and go SSJ (which, IMO, is impossbile) you wont go to 'SSJ4'. That requires extra parts. Therefore, I doubt it's the 'true' SSJ form. It's a mix of Oozaru and SSJ. Hence why I say Super Oozaru 2 suits it better.

1. And yet we see it. As far as color, look to Nappa and Vegita's armor for how much truth that holds.

2. Well that would make my point more valid. But either way I see no proof of that anywhere besides a movie (one which doesn't fit in the storyline because the original Brolly doesn't) Or TV filler. As far as Gotenks' ass is concerned, you could easily make the argument that one one was and the other wasn't. Either way in the end making that point doesn't contradict what I have contended.

3. That's quite right. I never indicated anything contadictory to that. It's very possible that the true SSJ form is quite more complex than first alluded to.

And that's all I have to say about that. Take it for what it's worth, just a simple fan of DB who's been around a bit.

[Entropy]

In the Freeza saga Goku transformed into the legendary Super-Saiyan.
Later Toriyama made more forms to keep the Manga interesting and also allowed others to become a Super-Saiyan.

I suppose from a "fan trying to explain it" point of view you could say that although Goku achieved Super-Saiyan, what would actually be stopping the others from doing so?

As for Super Saiyan 4. It was made by Toei to keep GT interesting and has no real bearing on the Canon storyline or any proper explanation.

[Mike D]

Therefore, the SS4 is merely the result of Toei's idea to have the Oozaru state of a saiyan and the normal, man-like state combined into one super-power. This allows us to assume that SS4 is not really a Super Saiyan transformation, but the human form of the Oozaru itself. This would explain the fur on the body, wild natural colored hair, the red rimming around the eyes, the tail, and the break-dancing, tight, leather pants.

That would also explain SS4 Goku's kaioken-esque aura while he is in the SS4 state. When Goku charges up his ki and fights while he is in his normal state, he uses the kaioken. Where as a Super Saiyan would have yellow/golden aura.

The 10 x Kamehameha also comes to mind seeing as how it could be either:

a)10 times the power because of the Kaioken

or

b)10 times the power because the Oozaru transformation multiplies a saiyan's power by 10.

[Xyex]

Hmm, well. 1) We see an Oozaru in the anime sequence, no signs of gold. 2) Goten and Trunks were born without tails. 3) Just because you have a tail and go SSJ (which, IMO, is impossbile) you wont go to 'SSJ4'. That requires extra parts. Therefore, I doubt it's the 'true' SSJ form. It's a mix of Oozaru and SSJ. Hence why I say Super Oozaru 2 suits it better.

1. And yet we see it. As far as color, look to Nappa and Vegita's armor for how much truth that holds.

2. Well that would make my point more valid. But either way I see no proof of that anywhere besides a movie (one which doesn't fit in the storyline because the original Brolly doesn't) Or TV filler. As far as Gotenks' ass is concerned, you could easily make the argument that one one was and the other wasn't. Either way in the end making that point doesn't contradict what I have contended.

3. That's quite right. I never indicated anything contadictory to that. It's very possible that the true SSJ form is quite more complex than first alluded to.

And that's all I have to say about that. Take it for what it's worth, just a simple fan of DB who's been around a bit.

Point two was made off the comment about Goten and Trunks's tails, and is fact as stated by Toriyama-sama.

As for your counter to the first point, it holds no water. The image shown in the animation was merely Vegeta's understanding of the 'transformed state' of the Saiya-jins. To this point the only Saiya-jin transformation he has ever encounted is the Oozaru form, as such, a legend saying that a Super Saiya-jin can only exist in a transformed state would imply to him that they would have to be Oozaru's. This is later shown false by the actual Super Saiya-jin form.

And for the third point, you can't have 'parts' to a 'true Super Saiya-jin form' as 1 + 1 = 2, not 1. There are stages OF Super Saiya-jin, not stages TO Super Saiya-jin.

[laserkid]

Hmm...So, lets see here...

What you are saying, is that there is only one true super saiyan, Goku. The gold hair/gold aura power-ups are merely a power-up, and not someone becoming a "Super Saiyan" due to the fact that there is only one super saiyan, Goku, who is the pinnacle of all of the saiyans.

Therefore, SS4 wouldn't be a super saiyan form, but another powerup given the name Super Saiyan due to the fact that the characters in the show are totally lost on what it really is.

That makes sense, I think the same thing happened with the Animators. They had no idea what to call it, so they called it SS4.

Thats a much more condensed version of what I was saying, but yes, essentially the caracters do not have a fucking clue what Super Saiyan is,n and neither really do the animators. All we reallyt know is that Goku is the only true legendary super saiyan, as he IS the strongest Saiyan AND warrior in the universe. Thats all being a Super Saiyan means in terms of legends. Super Saiyan 4 is unrelated to that, as Vegeta too, can use it, its just a super powerup Goku has to hit his own strongest point using the Oozaru form as a basis. The other SSJ forms are anger based and golden hair are a sign of, but they arent even really "super saiyan" its just what they called it for a lack of a better term, same goes for SSJ4 though.

[*PINHEAD*]

I always thought that the Saiyans held the "Super Saiyan" not as a transformation, but as some exceptional Saiyan warrior above everyone else, who only came once every so often millenia. Super Saiyan 4 seems more like that exceptional warrior, although magically growing pants, especially martial arts-style pants, doesn't make sense. But I agree that the SS4 transformation doesn't quite fit in with the others.
Kinda odd for a race to have so many transformations (including ones that turn you into apes, change hair and eye color, hair length, make you grow fur, and give you free clothes), yet be weak in comparison to so many other alien races that are picked off so quickly and easily.

[Ultimate Tofu Guy Drift]

It all depends on what you, the viewer, wants to believe. When toriyama wrote the dragonball series he tells the story to a certain extent, whatever the person perceives the story to be after that is entirely up to them. Now, one personal rule I have stuck by with any story, is that if the original creater hasn't created it, then it does not exist to me. Thats how I see SSJ 4. The creater never intended there to be GT, therefore SSJ 4 was never a true stage, which will explain why its so different from the others, it wasn't created by the same person as the others