Empower the Powerless

the_abberration · Post by **the_abberration** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:44 pm

1) Have Bulma create lightweight battlesuits/gi with the capability of magnifying the user's power (sort of a faux Kaioken).

2) Have an injured fighter receive a blood transfusion from a Saiyan. Said transfusion grants the user temporary Saiyan-like abilities (sort of like the vampire ash in Blade: The Series / She-hulk thing).

3) Have a Saiyan lend some of their ki to a weaker charater to temporarily give them heightened abilites.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:52 pm

the_abberration wrote:1) Have Bulma create lightweight battlesuits/gi with the capability of magnifying the user's power (sort of a faux Kaioken).

2) Have an injured fighter receive a blood transfusion from a Saiyan. Said transfusion grants the user temporary Saiyan-like abilities (sort of like the vampire ash in Blade: The Series / She-hulk thing).

3) Have a Saiyan lend some of their ki to a weaker charater to temporarily give them heightened abilites.

4) Accept that some characters simply cannot keep up with the natural talent of the Saiyans and to a lesser extent Piccolo and stop trying to come up with bullshit powerups.

OH YM GOD GUYS CHICHI IS PART DEMON SO SHE GOES ALL GRAWRAWR AND KICKS BUU IN THE BALLS AND HIS HEAD EXPLODES AND HUMANS RULE OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:56 pm

Super Saiyan is, too, a bullshit power-up. Why can't Tienshinhan or Krillin have a magic power-up that make hair grow on their heads and gave them massive strength?

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:59 pm

Super Saiyan is established and built up to throughout half a saga. It's a transformation too, not just an increase in power, and evidently an inherent Saiyan ability (if they can get strong enough to reach it). The humans have nothing like that, and if Tien turned up at one point with the ability to absorb his own energy to become stronger, it's be a major bullshit moment.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:07 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:The humans have nothing like that...

They don't because Akira Toriyama didn't want them to have such thing. If Mr. Toriyama didn't want Super Saiyans then Saiyans wouldn't have such a form.

B · Post by B » Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:14 pm

Yajirobe should not have been retired as early as he was. Krillin and co. had full-on exposure in multiple arcs before they became irrelevant, while Yajirobe has, like, 1.2 arcs. They should have forced him to go to Namek.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:50 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:
Amigo Ten wrote:The humans have nothing like that...
They don't because Akira Toriyama didn't want them to have such thing. If Mr. Toriyama didn't want Super Saiyans then Saiyans wouldn't have such form.

Yes but suddenly giving the humans some kind of transformation, or any other method of gaining massive power in the league of the Super Saiyans, would have been silly. Goku has been pulling ahead of his competition throughout the entire series. And through the Freeza saga, and up to a point in the Cell saga, Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo did too. Gohan continued to gain power after after that, until the Cell games.

For the humans to have some unique way of keeping up, it would have to be established pretty damn early in the story, since Goku had already left them in the dust by the time Raditz arrived. It wasn't just Super Saiyan that made them irrelevant, almost every human character was falling behind from the moment they were introduced.

I could only seem the sensibly keeping up with Kaioken. Goku trained the technique for an unknown time, but it was less than a year. At the end of that Kaioken x3 was too much for him, but a week of intense training and that was bumped up to x20. Things could be changed around a bit for Krillin to spend some time on Kaio's planet, and with the time there and 3 years to prepare it wouldn't be ludicrous for them to make big advances.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:01 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:For the humans to have some unique way of keeping up, it would have to be established pretty damn early in the story...

Why?! Goku was the first character to be introduced in the story and the Super Saiyan only first appeared in the middle of the story. The same could be happen to the humans. Although Tienshinhan could had some bullshit power-up due its alien ancestry.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:06 pm

But Goku was already massively stronger than the humans when Super Saiyan happened. If they had kept up until that point, then it would work better. They'd need the equivalent of a massive bullshit power up just to equal Goku before he went Super Saiyan.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:00 pm

I guess your are right. Screw the humans!

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:38 pm

Continue a theme from before Freeza's final transformation: It's not the size that matters, but how you use it.
Makankosappo... Kienzan...
Chaozu held down Goku at the 22nd tournament, yeesh!
Krillin was effectively the only character other than Goku and Vegeta to damage Nappa. But of the people on the battlefield at that moment, wasn't he the weakest?
Filler made this less impressive by having Krillin's attacks fail horribly in the anime after Freeza. Weh.

BS powerups?
Who needs raw "OVER NINE THOUSAND!"-style strength when you can Mafuuba Buu into a jar?
(Never mind that said technique only ever worked twice of the four times it was attempted... and one of these was a reversal...

).

What killed the humans' relevance was kind of a two-fold thing: first, most of them disappeared for a huge chunk of the story, and a bunch of new characters got to take the spotlight.
Toriyama seems to enjoy coming up with new characters, but not so much on fitting them into things (I don't know if that's his usual making-stuff-up having sideeffects, or if he just isn't great at writing that many characters at once...).

Yajirobe going to Namek would have been something... once he didn't go to Namek, that was it for him. Bean-daddy, thereafter.
Once T'en, Chaozu and Yamcha died... that's pretty much it. Afterward they were just there unless some random miraculous day-saving blast had to come out of nowhere...
They could have learned stuff from Kaio, sure, but at the end of the day, the story was elsewhere, so focusing on them was pointless. Gohan, Krillin, Vegeta, Piccolo all got the character boost from the Space Empire arc... dragging out relatively resolved characters just didn't fit the story very well. (Even though Yamcha had direction with the whole Bulma/Vegeta thing, but eh.).

Feh.

I'd've like to have seen more smart fighting, though. -_-

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:22 pm

caejones wrote:Chaozu held down Goku at the 22nd tournament, yeesh!

He couldn't hold down Nappa, who was barely four times stronger than him at that point.

Krillin was effectively the only character other than Goku and Vegeta to damage Nappa. But of the people on the battlefield at that moment, wasn't he the weakest?

Gohan was weaker.

Who needs raw "OVER NINE THOUSAND!"-style strength when you can Mafuuba Buu into a jar?

Except raw strength overcomes fancy techniques.

Freeza.exe · Post by **Freeza.exe** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:32 pm

Rocketman wrote:
the_abberration wrote:1) Have Bulma create lightweight battlesuits/gi with the capability of magnifying the user's power (sort of a faux Kaioken).

2) Have an injured fighter receive a blood transfusion from a Saiyan. Said transfusion grants the user temporary Saiyan-like abilities (sort of like the vampire ash in Blade: The Series / She-hulk thing).

3) Have a Saiyan lend some of their ki to a weaker charater to temporarily give them heightened abilites.
4) Accept that some characters simply cannot keep up with the natural talent of the Saiyans and to a lesser extent Piccolo and stop trying to come up with bullshit powerups.

OH YM GOD GUYS CHICHI IS PART DEMON SO SHE GOES ALL GRAWRAWR AND KICKS BUU IN THE BALLS AND HIS HEAD EXPLODES AND HUMANS RULE OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG

I like when people type out my opinion for me. Couldn't you make up some lame excuse for anyone to gain more power? The story sucked enough when some magic wizard went "HURRRRR LET ME DANCE AROUND YOU AND YOU'LL BE 1000000x MORE STRONGER!!!" We don't need more of that.

Maphisto86 · Post by **Maphisto86** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:51 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Who needs raw "OVER NINE THOUSAND!"-style strength when you can Mafuuba Buu into a jar?
Except raw strength overcomes fancy techniques.

Creative techniques is something I missed about the first half of the series, near the end of Dragonball. Fortunately, while we saw the SSJ3 form in the Buu saga, Mr. Toriyama fortunately did not stop there and make SSJ3 save the day. Fusion was a great new technique that almost defeated the main villain of that saga (though ironically not quite).

Personally I think if Mr. Toriyama wanted to, the human characters like Yamcha, Kuririn, Tehshinhan, etc could have become stronger. I fault their lessening relevance in the story to be the reason they became weaker.

On that note, I believe only a special type of training, power-up (i.e. Older Kaioshin's Mystic Dance

) or technique such as fusion could make the human characters as strong as Piccolo or the Saiyans.

P.S. Wasn't the Mafuba wave defeated by Piccolo only because he had prior knowledge of it?

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:57 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Who needs raw "OVER NINE THOUSAND!"-style strength when you can Mafuuba Buu into a jar?
Except raw strength overcomes fancy techniques.

That is really the most annoying part.

. And GT certainly didn't help. "I've absorbed Goku! The universe is now my bi--" "Lol I'm out 'cause I'm the hero!" "WTF?".

So... yeah. If it hadn't been established that raw power overcomes logic, then I'd expect the secondary cast to use more logic.

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:06 am

Saiyaman Prime wrote: For Piccolo (...) they could have made him do what he did in Super Sonic Warriors 2 (I think?) Fuse with Piccolo Daimao.

I don't understand how this could possibly make sense, when Pic from his hatching had all of Daimaou's strength transfered to him and grew far beyond that before he falls too far behind the Sayiajin.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:31 am

When did interesting and unique techniques ever win anything? It was always raw power, and sometimes basic strategy/knowledge than won out in the end. Well, apart from the final of the 22nd tournament, when it was just luck. All the bizarre techniques probably died out because they were never actually useful.

Apart from the taioken of course, which was kept around because it made for a handy plot tool.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:17 am

If we continued directly from the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai and followed the ki-techniques as they were from then until the fight against Vegeta, there could be some change in the series.

We see the characters with the following characteristics:

Krillin: A quick learner, inventor of techniques that lets him have a greater chance to defeat a stronger enemy.

Tenshinhan: Has a good sight and a great potential. Knows techniques that are coupled to his sight.

Yamcha: Except for being more or less useless, he seems to be fast in his attacks.

Chaoz: Telekinesis.

They could have evolved the fighting to contain fights based on certain abilities, leaving someone strong losing to someone much faster but a bit weaker.
The characters could thus evolve into this:

Krillin: Tactician, more or less. Waits for the right moment to attack, otherwise diverts and flees. Not glamourous at all, I know.

Tenshinhan: Some kind of scout, also good at melee fighting.

Yamcha: The annoying fly that drives the enemy insane, 'cause he can't reach Yamcha. And soon he gets successively beaten down.

Chaoz: Long-range type of fighter, doesn't get his sleeves dirty.

But as the series went from adventure to everyone knowing the Kamehameha and to the one with the strongest Kamehameha is the winner, a concept like the one I described wouldn't work, and also would not be appealing to the kids that read Dragonball by that time.

temujin · Post by **temujin** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:10 am

Amigo Ten wrote:But Goku was already massively stronger than the humans when Super Saiyan happened. If they had kept up until that point, then it would work better. They'd need the equivalent of a massive bullshit power up just to equal Goku before he went Super Saiyan.

Such BS.
Even if goku was already superior,he had to use new training methods kami training or holy water and 1 month in the ROSAT to overcome Tenshinhan,however,in the sayan saga we can say that Tenshinhan, krillin or Piccolo were more or less in the same range.
Piccolo had massive bullshit power up just to equal/surpass Goku in namek,so Tenshinhan coud have done the same, if Akira Toriyama wanted him to have more relevance.

Why?! Goku was the first character to be introduced in the story and the Super Saiyan only first appeared in the middle of the story. The same could be happen to the humans. Although Tenshinhan could had some bullshit power-up due its alien ancestry.

Obviously.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:17 am

Godo wrote:They could have evolved the fighting to contain fights based on certain abilities, leaving someone strong losing to someone much faster but a bit weaker.
The characters could thus evolve into this

That is about what happened.

Then Piccolo waves his hand and knocks them all away.