Who's stronger Kid Buu or Fat Buu (full power)?

B · Post by B » Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:52 pm

I'm inclined to say Genuine Buu, as his fight with Vegeta was more in his favor. That may just be his killer instinct, though.

Yamcha_krillin · Post by **Yamcha_krillin** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:45 pm

Eddie wrote:Bringing made up numbers into the discussion is pointless. DBZ is not algebra. 25 x does not equal Goku y. Nobody can assign a number to the battle powers of Buu, SSJ3 Goku, or any of the Kaioshin. If Fat Buu was stronger than Chibi Buu, don't you think he would have won their fight? That's how I see it. You don't have to agree. The point is, trying to add the sum of South Kaioshin and Buu, minus Dai Kaioshin, plus 9000 divided by the square root of Kamehameha does not equal anything. It's mumbo jumbo. Hogwash. Bullsh- uh, I think I'll stop there.

Mr.Buu is weaker then Fat Buu.That was stated when Fat buu expelled Evil Buu and became Good Buu.

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:39 pm

I would have to say Fat Buu is stronger. Fat Buu had the power of Chibi Buu with the power of the Kais added on top of it.

I think the primary difference between Fat Buu and Kid Buu, besides Fat Buu being stronger, is that Kid Buu was just more savage. The good nature of the Kais had calmed and made Fat Buu more gentle, so although he COULD have fought with more power, as we see him do against Vegeta and others when he becomes enraged, he usually just messes around.

Whereas Kid Buu was just a wild animal and went all out with the power he had. He had less power than Fat Buu, but he used 100% of it, whereas Fat Buu did not.

Metrite · Post by **Metrite** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:18 am

mAcChaos wrote:I would have to say Fat Buu is stronger. Fat Buu had the power of Chibi Buu with the power of the Kais added on top of it.

...
Why in the world was that line in the last panel of pg 80 in volume fort-two even included?... It's obvious nobody can see it!

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:32 am

Metrite wrote:
mAcChaos wrote:I would have to say Fat Buu is stronger. Fat Buu had the power of Chibi Buu with the power of the Kais added on top of it.
...
Why in the world was that line in the last panel of pg 80 in volume fort-two even included?... It's obvious nobody can see it!

What line was that?

Metrite · Post by **Metrite** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:11 am

mAcChaos wrote:What line was that?

It was the invisible line that said, "His heart, which through absorption even caused his power to be reduced, has returned to its original form." Seeing how everybody disregards it and acts as though it's not even there, it must be invisible to all but the most enlightened.

Eddie · Post by **Eddie** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:53 am

Metrite wrote:
mAcChaos wrote:What line was that?
It was the invisible line that said, "His heart, which through absorption even caused his power to be reduced, has returned to its original form." Seeing how everybody disregards it and acts as though it's not even there, it must be invisible to all but the most enlightened.

Oh my! I see I'm not alone! Somebody else here actually reads the manga and finds the answers that are clearly given to us.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:42 am

Eddie wrote:
Metrite wrote:
mAcChaos wrote:What line was that?
It was the invisible line that said, "His heart, which through absorption even caused his power to be reduced, has returned to its original form." Seeing how everybody disregards it and acts as though it's not even there, it must be invisible to all but the most enlightened.
Oh my! I see I'm not alone! Somebody else here actually reads the manga and finds the answers that are clearly given to us.

To be fair, unless you're thinking of a different line than I am, the English version isn't very explicit. It says Kid Buu is the more difficult, more evil, less tamed one. Apart from his ki going up when he turned into that huge muscular Buu, there isn't a direct comment about him being stronger.

Don't get me wrong. I think Kid Buu would be the stronger of the two as well, but like Kaboom said early on, it's not a huge gap. They're both somewhere around SSJ3 Goku power, and Goku even thought that he could wipe Kid Buu out if only he could gather enough ki (which, apparently, he could have done if he was dead). It's not inconceivable that the only real difference is how relentless one is compared to the other.

That is, unless the Japanese version is worded differently.

Metrite · Post by **Metrite** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:37 pm

Bussani wrote:To be fair, unless you're thinking of a different line than I am, the English version isn't very explicit...
That is, unless the Japanese version is worded differently.

It depends. By English version, do you mean Viz's translation? If so, that explains why it's invisible to so many. It turns out they decided to screw it up with a very off wording that literally leaves out half of what that line says. They must have real amateurs to drop entire portions what characters are saying.

smiley · Post by **smiley** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:09 pm

It does say that in the original version. But it doesn't mean anything because it wasn't Kid Buu who was weakened, but the combination of Kid Buu and Southern Kaioshin, who is stronger than Kid Buu. I don't know why there are so many misconceptions on this line.

So logically, even if Dai Kaioshin decreased Buu's power - since Southern Kaioshin is stated to be stronger than Dai, he would increase Buu's power moreso than Dai Kaioshin would decrease it, thereby making Fat Buu stronger than Kid Buu.

Metrite · Post by **Metrite** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:28 pm

The original language is too vague to say with a hundred percent certainty weather the line means both absorptions or not. Buu always took on mental characteristics of people, so it's quite possible they both could have played a roll in it. Saying anything about his power at all would have been completely irrelevant if the end result wasn't weaker than the original, though.
Since the line saying his heart, which through absorption even caused his power to be reduced is referring to Majin Buu (evil) changing back in to majin Buu (pure) it seems quite clear it means Majin Buu (Evil) had the heart that came with reduced power(It relates to why he went crazy and said, "I won't be me anymore!").

smiley · Post by **smiley** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:42 pm

It was just one absorption. This is evident by Goku and Vegeta's reactions after "Buff" Buu transformed back into Kid Buu.

Goku(on Super Buu): Wait! He's still stronger than either of us! He'll kill us both if we go out like this!

Goku(on Buff Buu): His ki is getting bigger!

Goku(on Kid Buu): Yeah! We can take him!

And as you said - Buu seems to be taking mental characteristics of whoever he absorbed into himself. So, it's only logical that Dai Kaioshin's "innocent" nature would have a negative affect on Buu, who was pure evil. South Kaioshin's only distinctive trait was stated to be his strength, so it's logical to assume that he would increase Buu's power.

Metrite · Post by **Metrite** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:52 pm

Seeing how the original was pure evil, it would make perfect sense for any Kaioshin to weaken him since they all would be so drastically different. And seeing how all the kaioshins were even weaker than ssj Gohan, even if South Kaioshin did make him stronger, it would be nothing really noticeable. And mentioning his power at all in that line would have been one hundred percent pointless if the end result was not weaker than the original.

smiley · Post by **smiley** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:20 pm

But that can't be true, unless you think Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu. And that doesn't work like I showed with Goku and Vegeta's quotes above. Goku tries avoid fighting Super Buu (who is stated to be weaker than the combination of South Kaioshin and Kid Buu) but thinks he can beat Kid Buu. So the only logical explanation for that would be that South Kaioshin did increase Buu's power.

And, if South Kaioshin had any affect on Buu's personality like Dai Kaioshin did - he would no longer be pure evil, but it's stated that Buu was pure evil until the point he absorbed Dai Kaioshin and became Fat Buu.

And mentioning Buu's power was necessary to explain why Fat Buu is so much weaker than Super Buu and Buff Buu.

Metrite · Post by **Metrite** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:53 pm

It was only mentioned that Buu became controllable, it was never said how evil he still was after the first one. And since the line was the comparison about Majin Buu (evil) and Majin Buu (pure) the only purpose mentioning his power could have is if the former was weaker. And as mentioned, even if South Kaioshin increased his power, it would be so insignificant that it wouldn't matter. Add the strength of all the Kaioshins to Buu and even then it's unlikely that Buu's hits would feel any harder to anybody.

And Goku's line in Buu has surrounding context suggesting he just wanted to persuade Vegeta to fuse due to their situation. What is also controversial to that is that Goku wasn't scared of fighting Buu with Gotenks absorbed. Right when he revived, he prepared to teleport to Earth and Fight Buu himself without fusing. That either means Gotenks made Buu weaker, or Goku isn't one to listen to.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:12 pm

Metrite wrote:By English version, do you mean Viz's translation?

Is there another English version?

Also, it sounds like you know what it says in Japanese. I'd like to hear Herms' translation, if he reads this thread.

Metrite · Post by **Metrite** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:21 pm

Herms shared his translation of that line some time ago:

the heart that he gained, which went so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…

The translation I've been using is the one from Mr Simmons. Overall, they say the exact same thing. Like I said, Viz apparently has amateurs that even go as far as missing half the dialog in some parts.

smiley · Post by **smiley** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:04 pm

This is what the Viz version says:

"The next to be absorbed was the chubby but gentle the great of the lords. Before this, Boo was pure evil, failure that even Bibbidi himself couldn't handle. But afterwards, he calmed to the point where Bibbidi was able to bring him under control".

So yeah. Buu was pure evil before absorbing Dai Kaioshin.

And Goku wasn't willing to fight Gotenks Buu alone. Gohan was there. He told Rou Dai Kaioshin that he was planning to use the Fusion Dance with him. And Rou Dai Kaioshin mentioned that they would never stand a chance, even together and Goku agreed - so I don't see how that's relevant here.

Really, I don't like it either, but there is no sufficient reason to contest Goku's statement about his chances against unaltered Super Buu. He said they would get killed - and Vegeta seemed to agree, even though he sensed Super Saiyan 3 Goku's power from the afterlife. That's all there is to it.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:07 pm

Metrite wrote:Herms shared his translation of that line some time ago:
the heart that he gained, which went so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…

The translation I've been using is the one from Mr Simmons. Overall, they say the exact same thing. Like I said, Viz apparently has amateurs that even go as far as missing half the dialog in some parts.

When was this line? Are we talking about Kid Buu or Super Buu? I don't remember what Viz wrote exactly on Kid Buu (aside from him being the most dangerous), but that sounds kind of like what they wrote in regards to Super Buu. The idea was basically that Super Buu and Fat Buu were the same thing, except with the Buu-ness in control and not the increasiong Kaioshin characteristics. Therefore, Super Buu was undiluted evil, which is the source of Buu's power in the first place. In retrospect, you basically get the feeling that Super Buu was just a "grown up" and superior Kid Buu, albeit with a hint of intellect.

Between Fat Buu and Kid Buu, my interpretation of the source material is generally that Fat Buu has more power floating about, but lacks the capacity to make use of it. So, for all intents and purposes, he has lost power. When he turns his mind to wickedness, he's as deadly as any Buu. But when he isn't focused, it seems like anyone can have a go at him. Look at Vegeta's fight with him. At first, Vegeta looked really good against him. Then Fat Buu became irritated. Afterwards, Vegeta arguably went down harder and faster than he did against Kid Buu.

To look at it another way- if Super Buu was stronger than Kid Buu, and Fat Buu had the same components as Super Buu, then Fat Buu had more power (or, at least, potential power) than Kid Buu. He just required some tweaking to actually bring it out consistently and effectively. So, with his power diluting with his increasing "goodness," his evil self hijacked control and used the Kaioshin power without any of the hindering happy thoughts to form into the combat-worthy Super Buu. I actually think Evil Buu and Kid Buu are probably about even.

Metrite wrote:And Goku's line in Buu has surrounding context suggesting he just wanted to persuade Vegeta to fuse due to their situation. What is also controversial to that is that Goku wasn't scared of fighting Buu with Gotenks absorbed. Right when he revived, he prepared to teleport to Earth and Fight Buu himself without fusing. That either means Gotenks made Buu weaker, or Goku isn't one to listen to.

I'm pretty sure anything involving Goku vs Super Buu was ridiculously implausible filler. Just like SSJ2 Goku vs Kid Buu. Anime Buu Saga Goku is fucking Jesus, would own pre-Crisis Superman with his pinky, and his sole weakness is times when that pesky manga holds him back. This weakness is, of course, quickly rectified with Dragon Ball GT.

Metrite · Post by **Metrite** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:47 pm

smiley wrote:This is what the Viz version says:

As I already brought up, you shouldn't count too much on viz. It does say the original Buu was pure evil, and it does say he became controllable after Dai Kaioshin was absorbed, but it leaves no clue at all how South Kaioshin changed him(it may be possible he became less evil but still too much to control). And as I mentioned before, even if South Kaioshin made him stronger, it would be such an insignificant difference that there's no point in even bothering with it.

And Goku wasn't willing to fight Gotenks Buu alone. Gohan was there. He told Rou Dai Kaioshin that he was planning to use the Fusion Dance with him.

Nope. Goku was about to go fight Buu himself without fusing. Observe the scene carefully. He had his fingers to his head saying, "I'm off". Rou Kaioshin in doupt then stops him and asks how he can be sure to win. Goku then ponders for a moment and then gets the idea to use fusion. That means Goku was about to fight Buu himself without fusing and would have done so if he hadn't been interrupted. The fact that he even accepted Rou Kaioshin's offer to begin with goes to show he wasn't scared of that Buu. If the difference between them was really that freaking huge he would have just said, "Don't do that, I'm just an insect to him, you'd be throwing your life in the garbage!"

Onikage725 wrote:When was this line? ...
I'm pretty sure anything involving Goku vs Super Buu was ridiculously implausible filler.

Judging from this and several other things you brought up, I'm assuming you apparently haven't bothered reading the whole topic (or at least pay attention to what was being discussed in parts). Read thoroughly while actually paying close attention and thou shalt find all thy points have been addressed.