Who's stronger Kid Buu or Fat Buu (full power)?

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:25 pm

Metrite wrote:Judging from this and several other things you brought up, I'm assuming you apparently haven't bothered reading the whole topic (or at least pay attention to what was being discussed in parts). Read thoroughly while actually paying close attention and thou shalt find all thy points have been addressed.

If you don't feel like actually replying in any meaningful way, feel free to not reply. I have absolutely no patience for that kind of needless attitude.

And for the record, I did read the thread. I also don't move about with my manga collection in a sack, so I can't currently reference page 80 of volume 42. Hence why I asked a simple question, to clarify for anyone who isn't staring at the manga and make sure everyone is on the same page with the discussion.

What else in my post do you take issue with?

Metrite · Post by **Metrite** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:35 pm

Onikage725 wrote:Hence why I asked a simple question, to clarify for anyone who isn't staring at the manga and make sure everyone is on the same page with the discussion.

Somebody already asked what line that was and got the answer. And seeing how it's the line that pretty much gives the answer to the topic, I find it a bit annoying how sometimes folks just pop in with a ton of fan made ideas (from people who apparently didn't observe that line, or had the lacking viz version) that completely disregard it.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:05 am

Metrite wrote:
Onikage725 wrote:Hence why I asked a simple question, to clarify for anyone who isn't staring at the manga and make sure everyone is on the same page with the discussion.
Somebody already asked what line that was and got the answer. And seeing how it's the line that pretty much gives the answer to the topic, I find it a bit annoying how sometimes folks just pop in with a ton of fan made ideas (from people who apparently didn't observe that line, or had the lacking viz version) that completely disregard it.

1. I missed the part of your later post where you reference the scene, so I apologize for being human. The initial question of "what line was that" (which I assume is what you are referring to above) was simply met with the line itself. And, the line sounded similar to what Viz said regarding Super Buu. Since the notion of Viz translation errors had been brought up, I thought it may be relevant. Apparently it doesn't live up to your standards, but since you aren't a mod you'll have to forgive me for not giving a damn.

2. In regards to having the Viz version- is fluency in Japanese (written, no less) now a prerequisite for discussion in these parts? Don't be absurd.

3. My "fan theory" didn't disregard anything. It wasn't grounded in taking a clear stance one way or the other, it allows for that line as well as allowing for other evidence within the source material (I specifically referenced the fights with Vegeta, as well as the source material's description of how Buu's power works best).

4. As for the comment about Goku and Buu's extra fights, I was merely referring to the fact that anime Goku got some neat scuffles in filler that were technically beyond his capability. As your comment didn't specify manga or anime, and if it is in regards to the manga I disagree with you along the same lines as smiley laid out, I figured I'd bring up the anime side of things.

5. This is a "ask for one quote and call it a day" thread? I had thought it was a discussion. My mistake. Since you feel things are wrapped up...bye!

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:59 am

Metrite wrote:Herms shared his translation of that line some time ago:
the heart that he gained, which went so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…

The translation I've been using is the one from Mr Simmons. Overall, they say the exact same thing. Like I said, Viz apparently has amateurs that even go as far as missing half the dialog in some parts.

You're right. In fact, I do remember that line being in the anime, which I just watched yesterday. However, there were so many anime only lines mixed in with lines from the manga at that point that it would be impossible to tell if they were present in the original manga, unless someone posted the translation.

In other words, you're right, but "jeez why doesn't everyone just read the manga and get the answer

" wasn't a simple answer in this case.

goldsaint13 · Post by **goldsaint13** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:33 am

The matter of Buu's forms is hard to handle...

Kid Buu vs Fat Buu (complete)

Well...

Goku said he could have defeated Fat Buu back on Earth... But he was dead back then...
Alive Goku SSJ3 could match Kid Buu's power but he can't reach his maximum due to his living body... But if he could, he would defeat Kid Buu...

This would suggest that Fat Buu may be stronger...

But Kaiohshin said that absorbing Dai Kaiohshin dropped Kid Buu's power... Well, to be more correct, it dropped Buff Buu's power into Fat Buu that may be still stronger than Kid Buu...

But going deeper into it...

Who is the "Fat" Buu that fights Kid Buu during the last battle???
Is he Good Buu or the original Fat Buu???

It seems an easy question but Vegeta at the end of the fight wants to destroy that Majin Buu fearing he could generate another Evil Buu...

And if he would be Good Buu that would mean that Evil Buu is stronger than Kid Buu himself, that is not impossible but when Vegeta detached Good Buu from Super Buu his hope was to get Good Buu or Evil Buu that wouldn't have been hard opponents for SSJ3 Goku at least...

So the matter is more complicated...

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:47 am

I think in Vegeta's case he was just being overly cautious. There was a similar exchange between him and Kuririn at the Cell Games regarding #18. Also, he took out the members of the Ginyu that Goku had spared, and chastised him for being soft. Vegeta's never been big on leaving behind personal threats, and I don't think his worries necessarily mean there was a real threat of Mr. Buu producing another Evil Buu.

Then again... with Buu's magical nature and regeneration, maybe Vegeta had a legit concern that he would pull a Cell and "remember" his old state. Ok, I talked myself out of it.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:00 am

Onikage725 wrote:I think in Vegeta's case he was just being overly cautious. There was a similar exchange between him and Kuririn at the Cell Games regarding #18. Also, he took out the members of the Ginyu that Goku had spared, and chastised him for being soft. Vegeta's never been big on leaving behind personal threats, and I don't think his worries necessarily mean there was a real threat of Mr. Buu producing another Evil Buu.

Then again... with Buu's magical nature and regeneration, maybe Vegeta had a legit concern that he would pull a Cell and "remember" his old state. Ok, I talked myself out of it.

How about Dragon Ball Online? There's a whole race of Majins. It may not be canon (I don't care either way), but when I rewatched that scene recently I couldn't help but think about it.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:12 am

I dunno... I haven't been following DBO. I don't really play MMORPG's, and there's no guarantee that a Korean MMORPG is going to come here even if I were to bother getting interested.

What is the race of Majins? I just looked up a pic and they seem to be Buu-ish. How is there a non-game breaking race of them? And why does one of them look like Fat Buu? Does that imply absorption ability?

And on an unrelated note, why the heck do the Namekians look so weird?

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:44 am

Onikage725 wrote:I dunno... I haven't been following DBO. I don't really play MMORPG's, and there's no guarantee that a Korean MMORPG is going to come here even if I were to bother getting interested.

What is the race of Majins? I just looked up a pic and they seem to be Buu-ish. How is there a non-game breaking race of them? And why does one of them look like Fat Buu? Does that imply absorption ability?

Believe me, I'm not an MMO player myself. Although I am curious enough to want to give DBO a try.

We don't really know what the race of Majins are yet, I think. There are a few different varieties. Some look like Fat Buu, others look like Kid Buu, etc. Different classes, different character designs. I couldn't help but wonder if Buu spawned them when I saw them, the way Namekians spawn more Namekians.

And on an unrelated note, why the heck do the Namekians look so weird?

It seems to be another option when customizing the characters. I'd imagine it's like how Daimao's minions came out so weird looking. Maybe Namekians have some control over how their offspring will look. It looks like you can still make normal looking Namekians, at least.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:57 am

Metrite wrote:
Bussani wrote:To be fair, unless you're thinking of a different line than I am, the English version isn't very explicit...
That is, unless the Japanese version is worded differently.
It depends. By English version, do you mean Viz's translation? If so, that explains why it's invisible to so many. It turns out they decided to screw it up with a very off wording that literally leaves out half of what that line says. They must have real amateurs to drop entire portions what characters are saying.

The Viz editions have mistakes/omissions but overall they are pretty accurate.

Herms has already mentioned that he would give them 7 stars out of 10.

Viz gets too much bad press even though they do a good job. Not a perfect job, but a good one. Most of the dubs do hundreds of times worse with translation.

goldsaint13 · Post by **goldsaint13** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:01 pm

Onikage725 wrote:I think in Vegeta's case he was just being overly cautious. There was a similar exchange between him and Kuririn at the Cell Games regarding #18. Also, he took out the members of the Ginyu that Goku had spared, and chastised him for being soft. Vegeta's never been big on leaving behind personal threats, and I don't think his worries necessarily mean there was a real threat of Mr. Buu producing another Evil Buu.

Yes, I was thinking the same thing...
And it is possible...

But it would mean that not only Fat Buu is stronger than Kid Buu but also Evil Buu is... Just look on how easily Evil Buu dispose of Good Buu while it took more time to Kid Buu to dispose of Good Buu...

But if Kid Buu would be weaker than Evil Buu, why does Vegeta hope to revert back Super Buu to Evil Buu mentioning him as an easy opponent (for SSJ3 Goku) while SSJ3 Goku was on par with Kid Buu?

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:10 pm

goldsaint13 wrote:
But if Kid Buu would be weaker than Evil Buu, why does Vegeta hope to revert back Super Buu to Evil Buu mentioning him as an easy opponent (for SSJ3 Goku) while SSJ3 Goku was on par with Kid Buu?

At that point, anything was better than what they were dealing with. But, even Goku thought he could take Kid Buu. So I guess that could just go up to noone knowing that SSJ3 while alive (and not assisted by fusion) would be too much of a strain to use at full capacity.

goldsaint13 · Post by **goldsaint13** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:10 pm

Onikage725 wrote: At that point, anything was better than what they were dealing with. But, even Goku thought he could take Kid Buu. So I guess that could just go up to noone knowing that SSJ3 while alive (and not assisted by fusion) would be too much of a strain to use at full capacity.

Yes... Maybe they didn't took in count that SSJ3 alive has a lot less Stamina than the dead one...
Who knows... Maybe when Goku said he could have defeated Fat Buu he meant with the full charging of SSJ3 power that is not possible while alive...

But... Is there a quote from Kaiohshin that can prove he meant Fat Buu to be weaker than Buff Buu but stronger than Kid Buu?

In the manga he stated that Kid Buu had absorbed the other 2 Kaiohshins to gain heart but paying with a drop in power...

But does he mean that first South Kaiohshin raised Kid Buu's power making him Buff Buu and then absorbing the Dai Kaiohshin made Buff Buu to get weaker into Fat Buu due to Kaioh's gentle soul?

Or does he mean that as soon as Buff Buu absorbed Dai Kaiohshin his power dropped to Fat Buu and to a level under the original Kid Buu?

I also think about how strong the South Kaiohshin may have been... I feel close to think that he was very strong but what about the Z-Sword?
It was stated that no Kaiohshin have never be able to pull it off the rock, while it only took the relatively weak SSJ1 Gohan to do so...

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:47 pm

It was also stated that Kid Boo was more powerful than they originally thought as he shows his power against Goku. Since Vegeta didn't seem to think much about Evil Boo, nor did Goku sense his presence while on earth--I'd definitely say Kid Boo is not equal to Evil Boo.

And Goku stated that Super Saiyan 3 used up too much of his energy earlier, and Piccolo even notes this. The effects were just worse when he was fully alive, but it was all there as long as he wasn't in otherworld.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:56 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:It was also stated that Kid Boo was more powerful than they originally thought as he shows his power against Goku. Since Vegeta didn't seem to think much about Evil Boo, nor did Goku sense his presence while on earth--I'd definitely say Kid Boo is not equal to Evil Boo.

This part of the series is so convoluted. You're right, noone seemed to note Evil Buu until after the formation of Super Buu (or, to use daizenshuu terms, Pure Evil - Evil). However, absorbing Mr. Buu caused Evil Buu to become Super Buu. Removing the same component caused him to revert to Kid Buu. So, it seems that Evil Buu and Kid Buu should be the same basic thing in a different package. Maybe comparing Evil Buu to Kid Buu is just like comparing Fat Buu to Super Buu. Kid Buu and Evil Buu may be made of the same stuff, but the little combat engine that could is far more efficient than the anorexic, old-looking version.

And Goku stated that Super Saiyan 3 used up too much of his energy earlier, and Piccolo even notes this. The effects were just worse when he was fully alive, but it was all there as long as he wasn't in otherworld.

True, SSJ3 ripped him of his borrowed time just the same as it chewed up Gotenks' fusion time.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:51 pm

Onikage725 wrote:This part of the series is so convoluted. You're right, noone seemed to note Evil Buu until after the formation of Super Buu (or, to use daizenshuu terms, Pure Evil - Evil). However, absorbing Mr. Buu caused Evil Buu to become Super Buu. Removing the same component caused him to revert to Kid Buu. So, it seems that Evil Buu and Kid Buu should be the same basic thing in a different package. Maybe comparing Evil Buu to Kid Buu is just like comparing Fat Buu to Super Buu. Kid Buu and Evil Buu may be made of the same stuff, but the little combat engine that could is far more efficient than the anorexic, old-looking version.

Yeah, that's a good way to look at it. All logic would say Fat Man potentially=Super Boo's full-power, but we know this isn't the case, even though Super Boo is basically fat man turned inside out, when you think about it. There's also the regressing into the Mega form, when Boo clearly, or seemed to not have anyone absorbed anymore. Most think SK is within Mr. Boo along with Dai, so logically his power shouldn't rise when Mr. Boo is removed--nor should he even enter that specific form. I know his huge Chi definitely dropped when he entered the kid form, but it still seems...odd.

I guess one can simply say Evil Boo being the physical manifestation of the fat man is different from being the pure, unaltered, version of Majin Boo, that is simply...well, an evil magical being derived from whatever magic Bibbidi used on him with no absorptions hindering him, or anything else, for that matter. Evil Boo just seems to be a product of fat man only, since he dumped all of the cloud like stuff into an actual form. I dunno. Hope this makes a lil sense.

When you think about it, Boo's entire being is simply an endless plot-hole.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:04 pm

To complicate things even more, both Goku and Vegeta thought that Kid Buu didn't seem like much of a threat when they first saw him, too. They seem pretty bad at judging the power of Buus. Well, it's hard not to blame them, since we're having trouble working it out too.

It does make me wonder if Goku could have beaten Fat Buu, like he said. It's hard to trust the guy when he's about Buu's power and endless regenerative abilities later, too.

goldsaint13 · Post by **goldsaint13** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:53 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:It was also stated that Kid Boo was more powerful than they originally thought as he shows his power against Goku. Since Vegeta didn't seem to think much about Evil Boo, nor did Goku sense his presence while on earth--I'd definitely say Kid Boo is not equal to Evil Boo.

Yes... But if, by chance, Fat Buu would be stronger than Kid Buu, so Evil Buu would have been a drop in Fat Buu's power, not a rise...

Maybe Fat Bu was indeed stronger than Kid Buu but used to hold back his real power due to the gentle nature resulting in a slightly stronger/weaker power than Kid Buu...
Splitting into Evel Buu and absorbing Evil Buu generates Super Buu who doesn't hold back anything and is far superior in power...

It's at least one of the possible options...

And Goku stated that Super Saiyan 3 used up too much of his energy earlier, and Piccolo even notes this. The effects were just worse when he was fully alive, but it was all there as long as he wasn't in otherworld.

It's possible that dead SSJ3 Goku is superior to alive SSJ3 Goku only in stamina...

Onikage725 wrote: This part of the series is so convoluted. You're right, noone seemed to note Evil Buu until after the formation of Super Buu (or, to use daizenshuu terms, Pure Evil - Evil). However, absorbing Mr. Buu caused Evil Buu to become Super Buu. Removing the same component caused him to revert to Kid Buu. So, it seems that Evil Buu and Kid Buu should be the same basic thing in a different package. Maybe comparing Evil Buu to Kid Buu is just like comparing Fat Buu to Super Buu. Kid Buu and Evil Buu may be made of the same stuff, but the little combat engine that could is far more efficient than the anorexic, old-looking version.

It seems likely...

But there's still a matter to discuss...

How strong the two absorbed Kaiohshins really were?

I'll open a topic I think...