FUNimation Dragon Box Updates

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:43 pm

penguintruth wrote:I think I'm actually coming around to jjgp1112's way of thinking on the matter, though.

I mean, if they were going to completely redo the dub, that would be one thing, use the Kikuchi score. But the dub as it is, was pretty much made to have the Faulconer score in it. It's already a pretty big difference in experience between the Japanese and English version, at this point, why attempt to correct it?

By adding the Kikuchi score to the dub, you only point out how different the two versions are, and neither the fans of the Japanese or English version will be comfortable with it. It's sort of a freak product.

It's an interesting thing to think about. Since they aren't going to be redubbing the show anytime soon, I'm just going to sit on the sidelines and watch the show in Japanese with subtitles.

BAH GAWD RING THE DAMN BELL!

But seriously, thought, this what we've all been trying to say. Just leave the dub as it is. Had Funi, say, decided to change the dub music while they were still dubbing the show, you'd have an argument, but the dub has been finished since 2002 (2005 if you count UUE).

JulieYBM wrote:It's a two step process. Once they eventually do a new dub for the series, people (re: future fans) will already have fond memories of the original music.

Redubbing the series is utterly pointless as far as Funi's concerned. Hell, not even in terms of how Funi feels. It's just pointless.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:45 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Redubbing the series is utterly pointless as far as Funi's concerned. Hell, not even in terms of how Funi feels. It's just pointless.

You know this...how?

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:48 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:
Redubbing the series is utterly pointless as far as Funi's concerned. Hell, not even in terms of how Funi feels. It's just pointless.
You know this...how?

There's nothing to be done at this point. I'm pretty sure Funi feels that there's no point in going to the effort to redub the whole show just for a DVD release. It'd cost money. If Funi wanted to do a complete redub they'd have to remarket the entire show, and that's a problem, because DBZ has already had it's period of popularity and it's status in America now is just as the show that people liked as kids in 1998-2001. The kids these days are into Naruto now. If Dragon Ball Z just suddenly came back, most kids would just look at it as some lame old show while people who were kids back in 1998-2002 would just be confused. DBZ simply doesn't have the same popularity here in the States as it does in Japan.

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:52 pm

I think the only chance we have for a re-dub at this point is a Kai dub, and Funimation hasn't even licensed that yet.

It will be hilarious if they do, though, since that series doesn't have Kikuchi's score, either!

linkdude20002001 · Post by **linkdude20002001** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:55 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:
Redubbing the series is utterly pointless as far as Funi's concerned. Hell, not even in terms of how Funi feels. It's just pointless.
You know this...how?
There's nothing to be done at this point. I'm pretty sure Funi feels that there's no point in going to the effort to redub the whole show just for a DVD release. It'd cost money. If Funi wanted to do a complete redub they'd have to remarket the entire show, and that's a problem, because DBZ has already had it's period of popularity and it's status in America now is just as the show that people liked as kids in 1998-2001. The kids these days are into Naruto now. If Dragon Ball Z just suddenly came back, most kids would just look at it as some lame old show while people who were kids back in 1998-2002 would just be confused. DBZ simply doesn't have the same popularity here in the States as it does in Japan.

If they re-dubbed it and aired it on TV, maybe it would be popular. You don't know how kids will feel about it. A lot of kids have never even heard of DBZ, so it won't be an old show to them.

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:59 pm

Kids always love Dragonball. If it came back today, it would be just as popular with the new generation.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:01 pm

I mean, sure, you can use the argument that Funi even releasing the Dragon Box after releasing the remastered sets shows that Funi could do a redub, but re-releasing the show and redubbing it are two very different things.

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:02 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:I mean, sure, you can use the argument that Funi even releasing the Dragon Box after releasing the remastered sets shows that Funi could do a redub, but re-releasing the show and redubbing it are two very different things.

The latter would split the fanbase even more.

DemonRin · Post by **DemonRin** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:14 pm

They rereleased the show because they realized the Remastered sets angered some fans, and therefore they have a whole squad of loyal fans who will spend money (some of them for a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th time) on a 4:3 Dragon Box release of the same episodes.

But the thing is, I have a friend a who is a DB fan. When I told her about the Dragon Boxes, she said "Why would you want THAT? TVs are Widescreen now, so Widescreen is BETTER!" She's a Dubbie. Fact of the matter is that most people, including FUNimation, assume that the Majority of the Dub fans are more casual and that they are perfectly fine with the Remastered sets. I'm not saying you Hardcore Dub fans don't exist, I KNOW you exist, you've been talking in this thread here for a while about it. But from what I've seen (My cousins and Brothers are Dubbies, and they had no problem with the widescreen, My Cousin even wants my Orange Bricks after I get the DBoxes) and From Youtube comments about how they think the Remastered sets "Look Better" than the DBox, MOST Dub cans are fine with the Remasters.

Taking this into account, FUNimation's best chance of making more money on a 4:3 re-release of the series was to aim it specifically at Fans of the Japanese version. This is REALLY Apparent in the fact that the Japanese with subtitles option will be DEFAULT! Which sucks for me, I'll STILL need to go to the Menu to shut the subs off, but yeah XD. Add to that the fact that the Kikuchi track is Already Mixed in 5.1 (thus saving them Time and Money, since 5.1 tracks are standard on their releases now) and it's a No-Brainer that they'd go with Kikuchi's score.

Does this suck for you Hardcore Dub fans? Yeah, it does very much. I've said it before, but I honestly pay 0 Attention to the Dub, so It didn't matter to me one way or the other, so I feel for you, I really do. But someone in this thread before was talking about the Faulconer Score and was saying "Wine, once Spilled, cannot be unspilled" Well... the set's already confirmed to have the Kikuchi track only right? Well, if the wine is already spilled in that direction, what's the point of complaining further? All you guys are doing at this point is going in circles arguing about something we can't change. If we couldn't campaign to get them to up the disc count to 7, there's no way we can get them to stick an entire audio track on the discs that they didn't want to put there, especially when this will have much less support than the 7 discs thing.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:04 pm

Really though, I brought this up before and I know its just wishful thinking but whats stopping them from re-dubbing the series for the Dragonbox?

It can't be the actors because they are still doing the video games, and it can't be the cost because they are the number one publishing company for North America(Not to mention the Bricks sold like hot cakes), its not time because The Dragonbox was announced a few months ago and there was no word of a dub until a few days ago and its not because the fans don't want it because after reading this its obvious PEOPLE WANT IT! Mixed this with the fact that the original audio is the direction they want to head in and you can tell they wan't to improve the series.

So realistically whats stopping them from re-dubbing the series for this release?

RyujiOtogi · Post by **RyujiOtogi** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:56 am

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:Really though, I brought this up before and I know its just wishful thinking but whats stopping them from re-dubbing the series for the Dragonbox?

It can't be the actors because they are still doing the video games, and it can't be the cost because they are the number one publishing company for North America(Not to mention the Bricks sold like hot cakes), its not time because The Dragonbox was announced a few months ago and there was no word of a dub until a few days ago and its not because the fans don't want it because after reading this its obvious PEOPLE WANT IT! Mixed this with the fact that the original audio is the direction they want to head in and you can tell they wan't to improve the series.

So realistically whats stopping them from re-dubbing the series for this release?

It's a lot of work to completely redub a 291 episode series though, and there really aren't that many people who even want it. Also, if they do plan on dubbing Kai in the near future, then redubbing Z would seem even more pointless. Their dub is what it is, it's too late to completely change it. They have an opportunity to do that without replacing all the work they already did for Z, and that's Kai. So I think a complete redub for the original Z series is completely hopeless. Also, even if they could redub Z for the Dragon Box's, we know they didn't because they definatley would have told us that by now. (we're a month away from release!) So that's really a kind of "what if" thing, and there are a LOT of those for Dragon Ball so there's really no point discussing any of them here.

linkdude20002001 · Post by **linkdude20002001** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:05 am

If they were to re-dub DBZ, then they could just cut and paste the voices for DBK. It would kill two birds with one stone and give them TWO more chances at cashing in on DBZ after they finish their Dragon Box release. It's entirely possible for Funimation to do this. Almost no one thought that FUNi would ever give us the Dragon Boxes, but we're getting them. Also, FUNi's been known to put out some crazy releases in the past (i.e. the singles of the double features). They'll do whatever it takes to make money off of DBZ for as long as they can.

KillerCory · Post by **KillerCory** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:51 am

I just noticed something.

According to rightstuf. The page count for the booklet has dropped from 80 to 42 pages.

Special Features: 48-page Collector's Booklet, Trailers.

http://www.rightstuf.com/cgi-bin/catalo ... 4587/4/0/0

Hope I get mine early.

I ordered it literality about 30 minutes after it was posted.

snaku · Post by **snaku** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:02 am

KillerCory wrote:I just noticed something.

According to rightstuf. The page count for the booklet has dropped from 80 to 42 pages.

Special Features: 48-page Collector's Booklet, Trailers.

http://www.rightstuf.com/cgi-bin/catalo ... 4587/4/0/0

Hope I get mine early.

I ordered it literality about 30 minutes after it was posted.

Rut-roh Rhaggy.

The Time Traveller · Post by **The Time Traveller** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:51 am

KillerCory wrote:I just noticed something.

According to rightstuf. The page count for the booklet has dropped from 80 to 42 pages.

We've been talking about it for a while now, but I'm fine with it, it should be slightly more pages than the Japanese DBox books.

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:04 am

Man, this thread definitely got long fast!

I understand where the dub fans are coming from, though. Guys, we all pretty much get it that for you the dub isn't the same without the Falconer score.

Hell, I get that on a completely different level, I absolutely adore Robotech, and when ADV dubbed Macross I gave it a shot. Gag me with a spoon. It just wasn't the same for me. So no, really I get it. I really do.

But what I don't get is this whole "it's been stained it can't be unstained" argument. By that logic, the dragonbox has been stained for you by not including the Falconer track and it can't be unstained either. The defeatist argument of "Its done don't try to fix it" has never jived with me. I mean if you truly CAN'T fix it that's one thing, but a dub score can be changed. It's not immutible. That's not to say you can't be upset your track's gone, only to say that specific argument is bad.

Ultimately, the problem here is that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Sucks terribly if you're the few. Tell me about it, as a "few" to the larger dub crowd, we sub fans have been here. It sucked that the version we love was being downplayed and cut to ribbons (for the longest time we didn't even have the eyecatches, and the first few DVDs had a censored sub track). Trust me, we've been on the recieving end of being the few. Unfortunatly the Dragon Box is meant for a specific group, the hardcore DBZ fans. You guys are a part of the hardcore, absolutely (otherwise you probably wouldn't even BE on Daizenshuu EX). But most of the hardcore fans are fans of the Japanese Original.

This being the case, they chose to put the dub track that would least offend that audience. Now I can see your point that the fans of the original wouldn't watch the dub. You're right, we generally won't. However, I can name more then one occasion where I've shown the show to friends who refuse to watch anything subtitled, and when on my two season sets with the original score on the dub, I found it LIGHTYEARS more tolerable then the other score. So yes, I would preffer that dub. I assume thats the same logic FUNimation is applying to which dub track they chose to put in.

In short, we all get it, you guys really want your favorite dub score, and it's not on the discs. Repeating this cycle back and forth isn't going to accomplish anything short of making the people you're arguing with think of you as childish. I had to spend a few days away from the boards to not just want to argue with you guys without really thinking about it because, damn, some of the arguing that's gone on has gotten to be ridiculous - and I mean that for both sides.

I know in one very specific case the original track has been tried and disliked, and I respect that. But for the rest of you, you may want to try it anyway. Believe it or not (and Mike can probably back me up on this from way back when) I didn't start out a fan of the Japanese Original. I started watching Dragon Ball with the Ocean dub of it in 1995, and followed the subsequent dubbing without any real issues straight through the Toonami airings in 1998. I even watched the season 3 and 4 dub (ending with the Cell saga's end) on television before I ever even had the OPTION of watching the show in Japanese. So trust me, I get "growing up with the dub". I graduated High School in 2001, and the dub ended only 2 years later if I remember correctly.

I'd even heard about the censoring during my forced dub watching (there was NO other way to watch the show until 2000 when the DVDs came out), and while it annoyed me it didn't bother me too heavily. It was only when I really got to see the original show I'd heard so much ruckus about, that I truly understood what all these mad "subbies" were getting on about.

So when I say I'm sorry you're losing the version you care about, I'm not trying to be fecicious or ironic, I mean it. But unfortunatly, you got the bullet shot this time. It sucks, but unfortunatly you are the victim of the needs of the many, as a member of the few.

linkdude20002001 · Post by **linkdude20002001** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:05 pm

laserkid wrote:This being the case, they chose to put the dub track that would least offend that audience. Now I can see your point that the fans of the original wouldn't watch the dub. You're right, we generally won't. However, I can name more then one occasion where I've shown the show to friends who refuse to watch anything subtitled, and when on my two season sets with the original score on the dub, I found it LIGHTYEARS more tolerable then the other score. So yes, I would preffer that dub. I assume thats the same logic FUNimation is applying to which dub track they chose to put in.

I'm pretty sure that had nothing to do with their decision. They used the track with the original music 'cause that was the only track in 5.1 surround. Sure, it's stupid that they used the English track without the English dub's music, but Funimation always has a 5.1 surround track on their releases nowadays.

Also, to everyone who thinks that this release should have two English tracks... It doesn't need even ONE English track. This is a release for fans of the Japanese version (whether you like it or not) and does not REQUIRE an English track at all. The only reason there even IS an English track, is because they want to sell as many as possible (i.e. Make the product appeal to as many fans as possible). If it were possible for Funimation to have put both tracks on this release, they WOULD'VE. Obviously it was impossible to have two, so they just stuck with the 5.1 surround track.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:26 pm

linkdude20002001 wrote:If they were to re-dub DBZ, then they could just cut and paste the voices for DBK. It would kill two birds with one stone and give them TWO more chances at cashing in on DBZ after they finish their Dragon Box release. It's entirely possible for Funimation to do this. Almost no one thought that FUNi would ever give us the Dragon Boxes, but we're getting them. Also, FUNi's been known to put out some crazy releases in the past (i.e. the singles of the double features). They'll do whatever it takes to make money off of DBZ for as long as they can.

Like I said, re-releasing the show and redubbing it are two different things. All Funi needs to do to rerelease a show is just...well...make new DVDs. But a redub of a 291 episode series requires so much more work.

laserkid wrote:But what I don't get is this whole "it's been stained it can't be unstained" argument. By that logic, the dragonbox has been stained for you by not including the Falconer track and it can't be unstained either. The defeatist argument of "Its done don't try to fix it" has never jived with me. I mean if you truly CAN'T fix it that's one thing, but a dub score can be changed. It's not immutible. That's not to say you can't be upset your track's gone, only to say that specific argument is bad.

The problem is that the dub was finished 6 years ago. They just can't change it because they've already finished it. Maybe if they decided to do this while they were still dubbing it, but now, it'd just be strange.

OutlawTorn · Post by **OutlawTorn** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:32 pm

linkdude20002001 wrote:Also, to everyone who thinks that this release should have two English tracks... It doesn't need even ONE English track. This is a release for fans of the Japanese version (whether you like it or not) and does not REQUIRE an English track at all.

I disagree with this entirely. It is being marketed towards the "hardcore" fans, not any specific group of said fans. In Japan, the Dragon Boxes were marketed towards the Japanese audience, so the lack of anything but the Japanese version in its rawest form makes sense.

Whereas in North America, I think it's a fair bet to say that "dubbies" are just as prevalent as "subbies" and, despite preferring the dub are "hardcore" fans in their own right. I watched the Otakon presentation and not once was it ever mentioned that it was only intended for the fans of the Japanese version, just that it wasn't a release targeting casual fans and it would default to the Japanese language version.

By that logic, it shouldn't even have English subtitles at all.

When you get down to the very heart of the matter, though, FUNimation is a business and businesses like to make money. So, they provide the best of both worlds and the hardcore fans of both the English and Japanese versions now have the option of owning the series in the best possible quality. Or is the implication that dub fans don't deserve to have the best possible version of the series? I simply don't understand that kind of reasoning.

linkdude20002001 · Post by **linkdude20002001** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:47 pm

I don't understand YOUR reasoning... Funimation may have said "hardcore fans", but that wasn't what they meant. By hardcore, they were referring to fans of the Japanese version. The fact that it defaults to the Japanese track is proof of this. And don't go saying "[if it's for fans of the Japanese version] it shouldn't even have English subtitles at all", 'cause that's bullshit. Why would fans of the Japanese version even want to watch it in Japanese if there were no subtitles? (Some might, but....)

Also, "they provide the best of both worlds and the hardcore fans of both the English and Japanese versions now have the option of owning the series in the best possible quality"? This release obviously does NOT do that. Most hardcore fans of Funimation's English dub would prefer to have Faulconer's music with the English dialogue, but that is not present on this release.