Die-hard dub fans (why are you, if so?)

[Raki]

Rocketman, I'd be interested in knowing how Toei did worse than Funimation in adapting, other than add filler that we mostly ignore, anyway. I read the manga, too, and other than that, it did a fine job, and what's more, it added motion and music to all the things in the manga.

Why is it okay for sub fans to ignore all the contradictions that filler creates, but dub fans must own up to "General Tao"?

It's filler and we all know it doesn't really count.

[Innagadadavida]

It's filler and we all know it doesn't really count.

Can't the same be said about the dub though? If you can ignore the flaws something that you're actually watching, why can't you ignore the flaws of something you don't want anything to do with?

[Raki]

It's filler and we all know it doesn't really count.

Can't the same be said about the dub though? If you can ignore the flaws something that you're actually watching, why can't you ignore the flaws of something you don't want anything to do with?

The filler doesn't represent the series though. I ignore the dub by not watching it but you can't deny its effects on how the series is represented.

[Rocketman]

It's filler and we all know it doesn't really count.

Can't the same be said about the dub though? If you can ignore the flaws something that you're actually watching, why can't you ignore the flaws of something you don't want anything to do with?

The filler doesn't represent the series though. I ignore the dub by not watching it but you can't deny its effects on how the series is represented.

Five Minutes doesn't represent Dragonball Z?

[Raki]

Can't the same be said about the dub though? If you can ignore the flaws something that you're actually watching, why can't you ignore the flaws of something you don't want anything to do with?

The filler doesn't represent the series though. I ignore the dub by not watching it but you can't deny its effects on how the series is represented.

Five Minutes doesn't represent Dragonball Z?

If you are familiar with the source material, it shouldn't matter. I don't care for the filler either and have discovered this amazing technology. It's called fast forward on my DVD remote. This amazing invention allows me the ability to fast forward through filler I might not want to watch.

[penguintruth]

Rocketman, I'd be interested in knowing how Toei did worse than Funimation in adapting, other than add filler that we mostly ignore, anyway. I read the manga, too, and other than that, it did a fine job, and what's more, it added motion and music to all the things in the manga.

Why is it okay for sub fans to ignore all the contradictions that filler creates, but dub fans must own up to "General Tao"?

Because the dub, at times, changes the motivations of the characters altogether, turning them into something different from what they are.

The filler in the anime just sort of fills time and adds a little extra to the series. Most of the time filler doesn't even contradict the plot.

You really can't compare the two things. Freeza's battle is too long in the manga just like it's too long in the series.

As far as anime adaptations of manga goes, Dragon Ball/Z is not that bad.

[jjgp1112]

Can't the same be said about the dub though? If you can ignore the flaws something that you're actually watching, why can't you ignore the flaws of something you don't want anything to do with?

The filler doesn't represent the series though. I ignore the dub by not watching it but you can't deny its effects on how the series is represented.

Five Minutes doesn't represent Dragonball Z?

Seriously, I doubt that most people's criticisms of DBZ have anything to do with the dub. Most of the criticisms I see are about inconsistent animation, drawn-out fights, filler, and a formulaic plot.

Really if Goku ONLY cared about fighting strong enemies, he would have accepted Raditz's proposal.

That's why it severely irks me when people jump on the "Hate Goku Bandwagon" and say things like "OMG Hez da most selfish person in the whole world and he is fucking evil and cruel!!! He only cares about himself and his fighting and no-one else!!!"

People also act as though the dub has him going out and seeking crimes to solve, ala Superman, and as though he let Vegeta and Frieza live because it would "be a crime to kill them"...

Even in the dub Vegeta stated in his "you're better than me" speech (I'm paraphrasing) that "Kakarrot fights for the love of it, and to push himself to his limits, but he's so kind and gentle that he wouldn't even hurt a fly."

I'd say that accurately describes "dub Goku."

Hit the nail on the fucking head.

[SSJmole]

For instance, Funimation's Goku is motivated very differently from the Japanese version. He launches into these epic speeches about heroism and ridding the world of evil. Compare it to what he's saying in Japanese and you can see Funimation is really only slightly tweaking the meaning of things, but in doing so they've completely altered the character's motivations. The original Goku doesn't care so much about saving the world or fighting evil. He cares about being challenged by fighting strong opponents and making sure his closest friends are safe. There's a tinge of selfishness in the Japanese Goku that brings some really masterfully handled depth to the character. This subtlety is completely lost in the Funimation dub. The character is more hollow and predictable. Your average American hero who always does what he must to triumph over evil.

Can I just say in my personal opinion that was done on purpose. Here is why. Look at the dub for the second. The most part it was one of the first big (by big i mean very popular) anime's out. It was shown on cartoon network.

But a lot of changes to character seems to be for 2 reasons :

1st a lot who saw Z never saw Dragon ball. So the piccolo personality mentioned before with him not been evil as such just going good faster is we never saw him evil. You can't have him talking about the evil things he did when we never saw it.

So 2 options would be needed. Option A) change some more dialogue and show flash backs of his evil days. This then leads to either a) an extra episode or b) things been cut more.

Option b) what they did. It's quicker it's easier and its cheaper. It makes the most sense.

2nd The audience. While it is a Japanese show they wanted it to be more comfortable with American audiences. So like you said Goku was more like an American hero. Why? They made him more like Superman or Captain america or the power rangers. The heroes the people watching would be able to understand.


Now cut to today. People are more aware of original shows from Japan. We now have stuff like Bleach or Naruto shown a lot. So Dragonball Z gets a DragonBox USA release. Why? because now people WANT to see that.


Let's be honest. Dragonball Z at the time it first aired in usa had been just like it's original Japanese viewing would have failed. Why? the audience wasn't really there for it. Now it is but then no.


So people hating on the dub for a lot of stuff but the stuff is understandable. The dub was bad. And you know what? Christopher Sabat is my favourite Vegeta.

[jjgp1112]

Now sure, you can say with hindsight that the show would have been successful anyway with the right marketing and that Funi didn't need to change anything. But the problem is is that Funi was inexperienced and hadn't really tested the market out. And not only that, but the original airings of Seasons 1 & 2 weren't very successful, so they felt that they would need to change everything because they weren't willing to take risks. We have to put ourselves in the mindset that the guys at Funi were in back in 1996-1999 to understand why they made so many changes in the first place.

[OutlawTorn]

That's exactly how I watch all anime dubs. I don't look for accuracy or any of that shit. I just watch it to enjoy it.

I don't like this statement. It implies people who want to watch something the way the creators put it out don't want to enjoy it. =/

To be fair, though, that type of stuff isn't restricted to English dubs of Japanese animé, but some Japanese dubs completely butcher English cartoons as well.

This is second hand info from newsgroups many years ago, so the accuracy may be in question, but Beast Wars apparently received a dub far worse than what FUNimation did with DBZ.

A silent scanner probe turned became chatty, wondering what to make Megatron for dinner, while Airazor was changed from a female character into a male character, which created a homosexual relationship (nothing against homosexuals, of course, but it wasn't what the creators had intended) between Airazor and Tigatron in the Japanese version.

While I have all the respect in the world for the original version of any animé which is localized, as without the originals there wouldn't be any dubs, and would prefer the dubs be kept as close to the original as possible, I'm not a militant fan who will denounce the dub if it changes things here or there or leaves out an insert song. Unless someone is making a comparison, what's the point in getting worked up and stressed out over a dub and eliminating any pleasure you might get from just watching the show?

No dub will ever be perfect, as there will always be people who will fins something which they will claim is a disgrace to the source material. Sometimes I'll want to critique something I watch, while other times I'll just want to watch the show and enjoy myself.

[isucamper]

Really if Goku ONLY cared about fighting strong enemies, he would have accepted Raditz's proposal.

That's why it severely irks me when people jump on the "Hate Goku Bandwagon" and say things like "OMG Hez da most selfish person in the whole world and he is fucking evil and cruel!!! He only cares about himself and his fighting and no-one else!!!"

God damn it. These debates get out of control because you can't respect someone enough to talk to them rationally.

When I said, Goku's tinge of selfishness adds masterfully handled depth to the character, how did this turn into OMG HSAOISFJOSIJOEJF!!!!!

I'm trying to rationaly talk about this and all I'm getting is trolling from you and Crockadile Rock.

I'm talking about subtle depth here that's obviously lost on you dub fans that want to scream and rant at the top of your lungs.

[Kaboom]

Let's "keep it Shonen," please. I'm watching this thread closely enough as it is.

[jjgp1112]

Really if Goku ONLY cared about fighting strong enemies, he would have accepted Raditz's proposal.

That's why it severely irks me when people jump on the "Hate Goku Bandwagon" and say things like "OMG Hez da most selfish person in the whole world and he is fucking evil and cruel!!! He only cares about himself and his fighting and no-one else!!!"

God damn it. These debates get out of control because you can't respect someone enough to talk to them rationally.

When I said, Goku's tinge of selfishness adds masterfully handled depth to the character, how did this turn into OMG HSAOISFJOSIJOEJF!!!!!

I'm trying to rationaly talk about this and all I'm getting is trolling from you and Crockadile Rock.

I'm talking about subtle depth here that's obviously lost on you dub fans that want to scream and rant at the top of your lungs.

Dude, Metalwario was adding on to what you said and more importantly, AGREEING WITH YOU.

[Taku128]

Toei was adapting the story to a completely different medium. You can't really compare it to Fuimation simply trying to dub it to another language.

Yes I can, because Toei did a far, far, FAR worse job than Funi did.

Accurate-to-the-comic dialogue with filler is less accurate then rewritten dialogue with the same exact filler? How the hell does this make any sense at all?

[Big Momma]

Toei was adapting the story to a completely different medium. You can't really compare it to Fuimation simply trying to dub it to another language.

Yes I can, because Toei did a far, far, FAR worse job than Funi did.

Accurate-to-the-comic dialogue with filler is less accurate then rewritten dialogue with the same exact filler? How the hell does this make any sense at all?

I think he meant FUNi did a better job of adapting the anime, than Toei did of adapting the manga.

[penguintruth]

Yes I can, because Toei did a far, far, FAR worse job than Funi did.

Accurate-to-the-comic dialogue with filler is less accurate then rewritten dialogue with the same exact filler? How the hell does this make any sense at all?

I think he meant FUNi did a better job of adapting the anime, than Toei did of adapting the manga.

That's laughable. Toei didn't change character motivations.

[SSJ2bardock]

Accurate-to-the-comic dialogue with filler is less accurate then rewritten dialogue with the same exact filler? How the hell does this make any sense at all?

I think he meant FUNi did a better job of adapting the anime, than Toei did of adapting the manga.

That's laughable. Toei didn't change character motivations.

Although I strongly disagree with the degree to which you're claiming funimation changed things, you're still trying to make this out to be something bigger than it is. It's still Dragonball. So what if Goku is made into more of a "hero" figure than he was in the original and Vegeta has his pride explained a little differently, they still beats the baddies and that's what is important. As it's been mentioned in multiple threads recently, this show is not that deep people. It's about the fighting and always has been, so honestly none of this nitpicking matters to most people in the US.

[Sebastian (SB)]

Now sure, you can say with hindsight that the show would have been successful anyway with the right marketing and that Funi didn't need to change anything. But the problem is is that Funi was inexperienced and hadn't really tested the market out. And not only that, but the original airings of Seasons 1 & 2 weren't very successful, so they felt that they would need to change everything because they weren't willing to take risks. We have to put ourselves in the mindset that the guys at Funi were in back in 1996-1999 to understand why they made so many changes in the first place.

This is what I don't get though. The original airings of Seasons 1 and 2 were already vastly changed and censored. It was actually a success through repeated airings if I remember. The Texas FUNi In-house dub pretty much followed up on the Ocean Dub of writing, voicing, and EXTREME music ala replacing Shuki Levy with Bruce Falcouner (The styles I found mostly to be the same). So I wouldn't necessarily call the original airings unsuccessful. If they were, then FUNimation would probably try to keep as close to the source material.

I think it had to do more with FUNimation's financial troubles at the time. Having lost its partnership with Saban and Ocean Group being resided in Canada while FUNimation was in Texas. It was obvious that the cheaper route of hiring a local music production company (Falcouner) was probably more economically efficient than purchasing the rights to the Kikuchi score or they just wanted to follow up on the success of the initial airings. And hey, for what its worth, it worked.....for a while.

[laserkid]

Accurate-to-the-comic dialogue with filler is less accurate then rewritten dialogue with the same exact filler? How the hell does this make any sense at all?

I think he meant FUNi did a better job of adapting the anime, than Toei did of adapting the manga.

That's laughable. Toei didn't change character motivations.

*cough*Chi-Chi*cough*

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I think the dub is absolutely terrible.

But yes, filler DOES change personalities. It takes a woman who cares about her son and is slightly silly, to a RIDICULOUS one track mind.

[Super Sonic]

With some guys mentioning nostalgia, I can use examples of other anime. Take Speed Racer for example. With many of its US fans, it's not a case of saying dub is better than the original Japanese. It's a case of guys wanting to see what they watched when they were kids. Think it's something similar for some DBZ fans who now have money to buy dvds that they didn't years ago.