Die-hard dub fans (why are you, if so?)

[Metalwario64]

DBZ.

The DVD's say DragonBall Z, the website says DragonBall Z, the shows opening says DragonBall Z, and the advertisements say DragonBall Z.

Yes, it is DragonBall Z.

That would be like saying that Mega Man X1-X3 aren't the same games as Rockman X1-X3 because some music is changed and the scripts are completely rewritten, even though they still get the same points across, albeit with a few nuances removed... There are even some completely changed names! Despite all of this, the game play is the same.

[penguintruth]

DBZ.

The DVD's say DragonBall Z, the website says DragonBall Z, the shows opening says DragonBall Z, and the advertisements say DragonBall Z.

Yes, it is DragonBall Z.

The DVDs at least have DBZ on them, but you have to switch to the Japanese track.

[Metalwario64]

DBZ.

The DVD's say DragonBall Z, the website says DragonBall Z, the shows opening says DragonBall Z, and the advertisements say DragonBall Z.

Yes, it is DragonBall Z.

The DVDs at least have DBZ on them, but you have to switch to the Japanese track.

You know, you're right... What the hell was I thinking? I knew absolutely nothing about Dragon Ball Z until I watched the Japanese version! I didn't know who any of the characters were, I didn't know anything about the plot, and I knew nothing about what kind of show it was until I came to Daizex and got informed!

I didn't know that there was a race of aliens known as the Saiyans, I didn't know that Goku trained with King Kai and learned moves such as the Kaioken, I had no clue that Cell was a creation of Dr. Gero who was made up of cells from the worlds greatest fighters created to kill Goku, I didn't know that Cell killed Goku and that Gohan ended up saving the day, and I had absolutely no fucking clue as to what the hell a Super Saiyan was until I saw it in Japanese!!

The dub is completely different! Not one single similarity! Why, it should be a crime to even entertain the thought of them even being remotely related to one another!

I need to watch Dragon Ball Z, I have only seen 1 or 2 episodes... In fact, I don't even see why I am at Daizenshuu EX trying to discuss something that I have no knowledge about!

[Onikage725]

Did you not see my post where I talked about characterization? Sure, the major elements are there, and the animation. But the icing on the cake, per se, is altered. Whether that is better or worse is up to the individual. The point is, characters were changed. Goku was made more heroic. Vegeta was made more dickish, except for that one time he cried for his daddy. Piccolo was an anti-hero from almost the word go. Krillin was hip. Gohan comes off as being a pre-teen in his pre-school days. Yamcha basically comes off as retarded (in Z, not DB). Freeza loves gay inuendo, oh and apparently he cared about Vegeta as a person. If all that works for someone, great! But that makes for a different take on the show. Guess what? I watched the entire dub. I got into the original version partway through, but continued to watch on TV. I'm not talking out of my ass. When episodes that I had fansubbed aired, I'd sometimes watch them back to back, or even on top of each other. I've watched episodes off the old singles in english with japanese subs and vice verse, just to compare scripts. I love comparing different versions.

So, disagree with me if you want. That's fine. Just know that I'm not firing from the hip with an uninformed opinion. I'm not someone who watched a few eps of the dub, said "screw this!" and never went back. I've seen both versions of the show multiple times, multiple ways.

AND THEY DO NOT FEEL LIKE THE SAME SHOW.

Right there. I view the dub and original as two different flavors of the same product. Some prefer Code Red, while some prefer the original.

I still don't see it. Mountain Dew and Code Red are both Mountain Dew. Code Red would be the beverage equivolent of a spinoff series. Comparing the original to GT, or maybe better yet to Kai, would be more fitting. Dub DBZ is still technically DBZ. It just has a few key ingredients altered. If a company were to take a show (that we'll call Mountain Dew) and screw with the ingredients to the point that you have Code Red, we'd be talking about Sailor Moon or Robotech (or God help me, Starblazers).

[Metalwario64]

AND THEY DO NOT FEEL LIKE THE SAME SHOW.

Yes, there are quite a few differences, but they aren't completely different. That was my point. It is still Dragon Ball Z, but it isn't entirely the same. Anyone can see that there are many alterations, and I wasn't denying that. See my Mega Man X analogy.

[penguintruth]

The DVD's say DragonBall Z, the website says DragonBall Z, the shows opening says DragonBall Z, and the advertisements say DragonBall Z.

Yes, it is DragonBall Z.

The DVDs at least have DBZ on them, but you have to switch to the Japanese track.

You know, you're right... What the hell was I thinking? I knew absolutely nothing about Dragon Ball Z until I watched the Japanese version! I didn't know who any of the characters were, I didn't know anything about the plot, and I knew nothing about what kind of show it was until I came to Daizex and got informed!

I didn't know that there was a race of aliens known as the Saiyans, I didn't know that Goku trained with King Kai and learned moves such as the Kaioken, I had no clue that Cell was a creation of Dr. Gero who was made up of cells from the worlds greatest fighters created to kill Goku, I didn't know that Cell killed Goku and that Gohan ended up saving the day, and I had absolutely no fucking clue as to what the hell a Super Saiyan was until I saw it in Japanese!!

The dub is completely different! Not one single similarity! Why, it should be a crime to even entertain the thought of them even being remotely related to one another!

I need to watch Dragon Ball Z, I have only seen 1 or 2 episodes... In fact, I don't even see why I am at Daizenshuu EX trying to discuss something that I have no knowledge about!

Well, just as long as we're in agreement, then!

Come on, you know what I mean about them being different shows. Robotech had the basic elements of Macross in the first part of it, too, but that didn't magically make it the same as Macross.

Hell, they even put "The Macross Saga" on the DVDs, but that doesn't make it Macross.

(Sorry, laserkid, I meant to stop referencing this, but I couldn't help it.)

[Onikage725]

AND THEY DO NOT FEEL LIKE THE SAME SHOW.

Yes, there are quite a few differences, but they aren't completely different. That was my point. It is still Dragon Ball Z, but it isn't entirely the same. Anyone can see that there are many alterations, and I wasn't denying that. See my Mega Man X analogy.

A game is a bit different.

Actually, scratch that. I'll say I disagree about X on the grounds of their not being much script to begin with. The game itself is essentially the same, and the script doesn't significantly alter anyone's motives or personality to my knowledge.

I can also counter with Assault Suits Valken, another SFC action game. Cybernator may be fun in its own right, but anyone who's played the original (especially now that it's been fan translated) probably won't see much need to go back.

Or, maybe it would be more apt to compare Metal Gear on the MSX2 to Metal Gear on the FC/NES? Both are basically Metal Gear, but they are quite different experiences.

[Undercooked Sausage]

That would be like saying that Mega Man X1-X3 aren't the same games as Rockman X1-X3 because some music is changed and the scripts are completely rewritten, even though they still get the same points across, albeit with a few nuances removed... There are even some completely changed names! Despite all of this, the game play is the same.

Did you just seriously compare a early 90s SNES platforming franchise to a 291 episode television program?

A much more apt comparison would be something like Sonic CD that had it's entire soundtrack replaced(and there is a fairly large fan division on what soundtrack people prefer) or how Final Fantasy IV's awful translation and presentation in America prompted teams to actually translate a faithful port A lot of people don't consider Final Fantasy II for SNES to be the real Final Fantasy IV, not to mention the love/hate relationship SNES rpg fans have with Ted Woolsey(a Bruce Faulconer-esque figure in the SNES RPG domain).

As far as I can recall, Megaman X has roughly 20-30 lines of text dialogue whereas the Dragonball saga has obviously much, much more, not to mention all voice-acted and performed by some of the best seiyuus in the business at the time. This is an extremely lazy analogy.

Really doubt many peoples experience of Megaman X3 was hindered by the replacement music of a PSX-only FMV and a questionable translation of a bare-bones plot. Platforming and shooting robots through interacting with the on screen avatar is the main focus of Megaman X, not the plot, animation, script, and acting.

[B]

The DVD's say DragonBall Z, the website says DragonBall Z, the shows opening says DragonBall Z, and the advertisements say DragonBall Z.

Yes, it is DragonBall Z.

The DVDs at least have DBZ on them, but you have to switch to the Japanese track.

You know, you're right... What the hell was I thinking? I knew absolutely nothing about Dragon Ball Z until I watched the Japanese version! I didn't know who any of the characters were, I didn't know anything about the plot, and I knew nothing about what kind of show it was until I came to Daizex and got informed!

I didn't know that there was a race of aliens known as the Saiyans, I didn't know that Goku trained with King Kai and learned moves such as the Kaioken, I had no clue that Cell was a creation of Dr. Gero who was made up of cells from the worlds greatest fighters created to kill Goku, I didn't know that Cell killed Goku and that Gohan ended up saving the day, and I had absolutely no fucking clue as to what the hell a Super Saiyan was until I saw it in Japanese!!

The dub is completely different! Not one single similarity! Why, it should be a crime to even entertain the thought of them even being remotely related to one another!

I need to watch Dragon Ball Z, I have only seen 1 or 2 episodes... In fact, I don't even see why I am at Daizenshuu EX trying to discuss something that I have no knowledge about!

Everyone take note of this post. It's snarky, uncalled for, and COMPLETELY ignores the points the other person was making and takes them out of context.

That is how we invoke discussion.

[VegettoEX]

Let's all try to keep the sarcasm out of our posts, please . You know that doesn't help anything, and you just look like a snooty brat.

For the record, I think the Sonic CD comparison is pretty amazing. Sure, there's really nothing in the dialogue... but the entire musical score being changed and having two wildly-raging-and-loyal fanbases strikes a chord.

[Rory]

For the record, I think the Sonic CD comparison is pretty amazing. Sure, there's really nothing in the dialogue... but the entire musical score being changed and having two wildly-raging-and-loyal fanbases strikes a chord.

What makes it even more interesting, is that each soundtrack makes the tone of the game much different, even if there is no dialouge. While the original Japanese soundtrack is fast paced, techno-ridden, and blippy, the American soundtrack is much slower paced, darker, and tries to give the game a more epic feel (It's just a shame it switches back to the Japanese soundtrack whenever you go to the Past :p).
Strange thing is, (unlike Dragonball Z's split soundtrack), I like both the soundtracks for Sonic CD, I feel they accomplish what they set out to do, and it's almost like playing 2 completely different games (in a good way).

[onlyonelegend]

The way I see it is:

Funimation dubbed DBZ, and did a poor job... inaccurate dialogue and different music, etc. But damn do I still enjoy it, (especially SSJ Vegeta's smackdown of 19). I know it's not very good... yeah, I grew up with it, but I still love it.

Toei adapted the Dragonball manga, gave it sweet ass music, good voice acting, etc. But from an anime point of view, I think they really fucked it up. The slow pacing is sometimes unacceptable, like seriously boring as shit. Don't get me wrong, I think the anime is a big reason why DBZ is so popular, as they did an excellent job of translating the brutality of the fighting, but the non-stop filler and sometimes horrid animation really ruins it.

In one filler episode Roshi explains the 7 dragonballs were really one. I think that episode was more story changing than anything the dub did.

Funi accepted they fucked up DBZ and are now giving us the Dragon Boxes.

Toei accepted they fucked up DBZ and are now giving us DB Kai.

[Rory]

Toei accepted they fucked up DBZ and are now giving us DB Kai

Too bad they fucked that up too.

[DemonRin]

The dub fans who are getting offended STILL don't seem to get it.

I made a Really long winded post trying to explain it, and I tried to be nice about it to, but jjgp only focussed on the section where I said Son was a different character and set out to refute my claims.

Here's a few irrefutable facts.

1: The Japanese version came first. Therefore It is the "Original" version.
2: The FUNimation dub made some drastic changes to the characterization and script. Yes, the Major events of the story are there, but a LOT of nuance was altered. Whether you like Gohan having a Monologue during the SS2 transformation or not, he Did NOT have it in Japanese. It was an alteration. the Music is also a HUGE alteration you can't ignore. Again, you are allowed to like the altered version as much as you want but that won't change the fact that it's still Altered.
3: Modern Dubs by anybody BUT 4kids don't do ANY of the things the DB dub is ragged on for. That's precisely WHY it catches so much flak. Just Watch One Piece in it's FUNimation format. It was done by the same company with a lot of the same cast members, and is directed and written by two DBZ Alumni (Mike McFarland, Roshi, and Eric Vale, Trunks) It is so accurate and faithful to the Japanese, I prefer watching it dubbed these days, and I can watch the Japanese version without subtitles.

Taking these things into account, you can simply say that the DBZ dub is Different than it's Japanese counterpart. Whether you like the different or not, it's different.
The Japanese version came first, it's the "Original" version. Whenever there is a difference between a newer version of something and an older version of something, the fans of the "Original" version will always feel their version is superior because it's "Original".

Case-in-Point, I've seen Star Wars fans say the Prequel Trilogy films are Not Star Wars, and that the Original Trilogy are the only ones you can call "Star Wars".
Or, even more relevant, I've seen other Star Wars fans proclaim that the Special Edition and DVD versions of the movies are ALSO Not Star Wars, that the only Real Version of Star Wars are the original versions before George Lucas went Directors Cut on them. And these Films were altered By the guy who originally made them. That is seriously like if Toriyama himself were in the editing Room working on DB Kai, and the fans said Kai was terrible and not Dragon Ball. (which is NOT the case, I'm making an example, don't take this as me trying to debate Kai please)

The tl;dr version is: As long as there are enough changes to say something is "Different" than the "Original" version, there will Always be fans who think the "Different" version is an inferior product. Much the same way most of us feel DBE is an inferior story to the Real Dragon Ball (though obviously DBE to a greater extent)

You won't be able to escape this unfortunately, so just try to enjoy the version you like, and let us have the version we like.

[m121akuma]

Well, it looks like this thread is coming down to the most dreaded phrase in any fandom discussion: "true fan". Now admittedly, there may be a good point in this argument. The two versions of the series are indeed quite different. Can someone who watches a completely different version of a show than someone else really be called a fan of the same thing? To be honest, I don't know. At the end of the day, DBZ's dub is really a borderline dub in my mind. It certainly not as accurate to the original as most modern dubs, such as Naruto or Lucky Star. On the other hand, comparing DBZ to shows such as Robotech and Voltron doesn't really ring true either. The character names and histories are the same, all of the major plot points are intact, etc. The big difference is the fact that the music, performances, and most importantly, scripting, create different characterizations and a different atmosphere for the series. It's a more subtle difference than some earlier series, but it is certainly noticeable. Still, I can't help but feel that the ranking of fans smacks of unnecessary elitism. People have different tastes, but I think telling a fan that he/she is somehow lesser because he likes a different version is discouraging, and is almost guaranteed to cause a hostile reaction. Sub fans should try be a bit more encouraging towards dub fans to maybe broaden their horizons.

Besides, technically speaking, isn't the closest thing to a "true fan" someone who prefers the original Japanese release of the manga? All of the talk of dub vs sub is is rather pointless in itself because they are both distanced from the original, pure form of the story.

What about those who understand Japanese as opposed to those who do not? Can subbies who don't understand any Japanese honestly be getting the same level of enjoyment as those who do and actively understand the subtleties of the dialogue and performances?

[saiyangerl]

People have different tastes, but I think telling a fan that he/she is somehow lesser because he likes a different version is discouraging, and is almost guaranteed to cause a hostile reaction. Sub fans should try be a bit more encouraging towards dub fans to maybe broaden their horizons.

Besides, technically speaking, isn't the closest thing to a "true fan" someone who prefers the original Japanese release of the manga? All of the talk of dub vs sub is is rather pointless in itself because they are both distanced from the original, pure form of the story.

What about those who understand Japanese as opposed to those who do not? Can subbies who don't understand any Japanese honestly be getting the same level of enjoyment as those who do and actively understand the subtleties of the dialogue and performances?

I'd have to agree with this. As a dub fan I already acknowledge that yes the dub is different from the original. I mean that seems to be what the whole deal is in this thread that people want dub fans to acknowledge the difference. Well I acknowledge this and I think others have as well. I respect the original and have watched some of it. Others may not be interested in the original and that is their choice and their personal preference.

But as m121akuma stated in their post it is peoples' attitudes toward people who prefer the dub that seems to be provoking people's responses. Some peoples' attitudes come across like they think they are better and above someone because they are a fan of the original which I think is wrong. No one is better than anyone in my opinion.

I think m121akuma also made a good point regarding subtitles and those who do and do not understand Japanese. I mentioned something similar in a previous post. So that would be interesting to read some responses on.

[DemonRin]

I think m121akuma also made a good point regarding subtitles and those who do and do not understand Japanese. I mentioned something similar in a previous post. So that would be interesting to read some responses on.

One thing I've noticed that makes me laugh is this really funny thing I've seen some sub-only fans do. I've gotten into arguments with Naruto fans because, to quote the most common complaint they have, "The dub pronounces Sasuke wrong! It's not supposed to be "Sass-Kay" it's supposed to be "Sa-SOO-Kay!" I've also heard people pronounce "Hokage" as "Ho-cayj" ("Kage" like "Cage" as in "The Bird sat in it's Cage") and after I asked them if they read the Manga or watched the Anime, they said they watched it subbed. Same goes with People pronouncing Luffy from One Piece's name wrong ("Luh-fee" vs "Loo-fee")
It's kinda funny, like these particular sub fans aren't paying any attention to the actual acting or dialog and are focusing entirely on reading.

I don't know how many of you guys are like that though, probably not many XD

[laserkid]

The DVDs at least have DBZ on them, but you have to switch to the Japanese track.

You know, you're right... What the hell was I thinking? I knew absolutely nothing about Dragon Ball Z until I watched the Japanese version! I didn't know who any of the characters were, I didn't know anything about the plot, and I knew nothing about what kind of show it was until I came to Daizex and got informed!

I didn't know that there was a race of aliens known as the Saiyans, I didn't know that Goku trained with King Kai and learned moves such as the Kaioken, I had no clue that Cell was a creation of Dr. Gero who was made up of cells from the worlds greatest fighters created to kill Goku, I didn't know that Cell killed Goku and that Gohan ended up saving the day, and I had absolutely no fucking clue as to what the hell a Super Saiyan was until I saw it in Japanese!!

The dub is completely different! Not one single similarity! Why, it should be a crime to even entertain the thought of them even being remotely related to one another!

I need to watch Dragon Ball Z, I have only seen 1 or 2 episodes... In fact, I don't even see why I am at Daizenshuu EX trying to discuss something that I have no knowledge about!

Well, just as long as we're in agreement, then!

Come on, you know what I mean about them being different shows. Robotech had the basic elements of Macross in the first part of it, too, but that didn't magically make it the same as Macross.

Hell, they even put "The Macross Saga" on the DVDs, but that doesn't make it Macross.

(Sorry, laserkid, I meant to stop referencing this, but I couldn't help it.)

Oh, I'm perfectly OK with calling them different, they very much so are different, much like DBZ's dub. The difference is that Robotech's differences are just different, not necessarily a dumbing down.

I'd go into a lot more detail, but this is a Dragonball forum, not Robotech.

Ultimately I do agree with you that the dub of DBZ is a different show then the original, my main argument was attitude (for the record, I do have the same issue with jjgp, which made his response ironic).

[Rory]

I don't know how many of you guys are like that though, probably not many XD

I get pissed off when people say "Say-Yen" if that counts? I get it a lot in my college class.
That's about it, unless you're pronouncing them all weeaboo-like (yeah, I said it). Like, when fans say "I like raito more than eru!".
It actually makes me want to punch them.

[Big Momma]

I think at this point we can say two things and save everyone a ton of trouble.



1) No sub/original fan is going to convince a dubbie to prefer the original.


2) No dubbie is going to convince a sub/original fan to accept the dub.


See? Now we can all stop bantering back and forth like a broken record!