Is there any indication that Vegeta can get to SSJ2 at will?

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:38 pm

During the Buu saga, Akira Toriyama established that powering up to Super Saiyan 2 was not as automatic once the level was achieved. During the Tenkaichi Budokai and his fight with Dabura, Gohan had to stop and take time in order to reach this form through another power up.

Vegeta seems to have reached this level for the first time when he fought Goku as Majin Vegeta. Even after receiving his initial "Majin power up", he doesnt surprise Goku with SSJ2 until right before the fight.

After this point, many sources (websites, video games, magazines) keep stating that Vegeta fights as a SSJ2 vs. Ultimate Buu/Kid buu.

However, there is never any indication that Vegeta has turned SSJ2, besides his Majin state.

1- His brief power up and appearance is identical to that of a regular SSJ
2- To have him easily transform into a SSJ2 at will, would negate what Akira Toriyama had established before in the series. You can only achieve SSJ2 automatically through a lot of training.
3- Vegeta gets absolutely destroyed vs. Kid Buu, while Goku (at SSJ2), manages to hold his own for most of the time. There can't be that much of a gap between their powers, so this suggests that Vegeta was fighting as a SSJ1 the entire time.

In Dragonball GT, the idea for SSJ2 is ignored. Vegeta is definitely fighting as a Super Saiyan 1 vs. Super 17, and not SSJ2 as most fans assume.

What do you guys think about this?
I haven't read that far into the Manga. Does Akira Toriyama make any reference to Vegeta being a SSJ2 after he returns to earth?

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:46 pm

Gokû never uses Super Saiyan 2 in the comic after showing it to Majin Boo and Babidi. He went straight from 1 to 3 against Kid Majin Boo.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a238/YBM/086.jpg

When Vegeta steps in against Kid Majin Boo, he powers up with sparks.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a238/YBM/104.jpg

VenomSymbiote · Post by **VenomSymbiote** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:59 pm

I was always under the impression that Vegeta can indeed go Super Saiyan 2 after his Majin power-up. There are several panels, like the one above, that indicate that he is able to.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:02 pm

Even before he fought Goku, throughout the early Buu Arc Vegeta seemed confident that he was now stronger than Gohan. He witnessed Gohan's SSj2 power first-hand back in the Cell Games, so that's a claim I don't think he'd make unless he could transform in the same way. So I personally think that's all we need to confirm that he was capable of it. It's almost certain that in the last seven years he had reached it through harsh training, and he was simply "saving it" for his fight with Goku.

In the manga, we can easily tell when anyone, Vegeta included, is a Super Saiyan 2 by the appearance of their Ki aura. It's more violent and jagged, and contains bolts of lightning-like energy. These signs are consistently present in the manga, and are the best way to distinguish SSj2 from SSj1, especially with characters like Vegeta and Buu-arc Gohan, where there's no difference in their hair.

In the manga, Vegeta does have the distinctive Super Saiyan 2 aura when he fights Kid Buu. You can see for yourself here, and on the next couple pages after it. It's safe to say in confidence that he was fighting at Super Saiyan 2.

That said, your confusion on the matter seems to stem from only sourcing the anime. That thing about using the auras and lightning bolts to tell the difference? It's not so in the anime. TOEI Animation evidently didn't pick up on that trend, so their auras in the show are almost always different. They omit things like the lightning bolts where they should be, and insert them where they shouldn't.

If that wasn't bad enough, the anime version of the Kid Buu Arc was extended in the anime, and kind of a mess. Vegeta and Goku go back-and-forth multiple times in their turns fighting against the little pink freak. In the manga, Goku fought Buu first at Super Saiyan 3, then Vegeta fought him with Super Saiyan 2, then Mr. Buu fought him, and then they came up with the plan for the Spirit Bomb.

As awesome as it is, Goku's "warmup" fight with Kid Buu at Super Saiyan 2 is filler; added in the anime as a lead-in to the real fight, when Goku started using Super Saiyan 3. So it doesn't really mean anything towards who could do what. I suppose the best way to make sense of it would be to assume that Kid Buu was toying around with SSj2 Goku; fighting him at that level and eventually forcing him to use SSj3. But once it was Vegeta's turn, Buu didn't bother bringing himself back down, and was still fighting with SSj3-level power.

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:51 pm

Thank you for the scans!
SSJ Kaboom, I see what you mean. The anime messes up a lot when trying to distinguish the SSJ levels.
For example, in GT, many of the characters power up with lightning (including Trunks), even though they obviously are not able to reach SSJ2.

I suppose the only way to explain why Vegeta was able to master SSJ2 so quickly is because he had achieved this level prior to the Majin "upgrade". But was the level he sensed from Goku (when he fought Yakon) so high that he needed the Majin Transformation? I guess so.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:18 pm

Aoi wrote:But was the level he sensed from Goku (when he fought Yakon) so high that he needed the Majin Transformation? I guess so.

That would be my bet, that Goku was just ahead in base strength. He kind of had the advantage, being dead and all. Besides that, he was stronger than Vegeta after the Room of Spirit and Time (even after he'd only been in for 10 months and Vegeta had been in for two years), which I think shows that Goku is just a genius when it comes to training methods. Having Kaio as a couch probably didn't hurt either.

B · Post by B » Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:21 pm

Aoi wrote:But was the level he sensed from Goku (when he fought Yakon) so high that he needed the Majin Transformation? I guess so.

He "needed" it to get his Saiyan arc edge back.

Post by **Herms** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:47 pm

B wrote:He "needed" it to get his Saiyan arc edge back.

His Saiyan arc edge was that he was a gazillion times stronger than Goku. In the Boo arc he admits that there is a large gap between him and Goku now, and he needs the power-up that being controlled by Babidi provides in order to fight equally with SSJ2 Goku.

Since Vegeta doesn't transform into an SSJ2 when first being taken over by Babidi, but only does so at will later, I think it's safe to assume he already had that ability, but that he realized his SSJ2 form would be no match for Goku's.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:15 pm

Well, Vegeta's reasoning for Majin-ing was also time-based, I think, since that forced Goku to fight him, and Goku was only going to be on Earth for that one day.

I've never liked the idea that Babidi's spell increased Vegeta's power... I dunno why. But... I guess that'd mean he'd have to have been able to reach SSJ2 already.
... I'm going with Kaboom's comment on Vegeta's attitude toward Gohan prior to getting Majin'd.

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:51 pm

Herms wrote:
B wrote:He "needed" it to get his Saiyan arc edge back.
His Saiyan arc edge was that he was a gazillion times stronger than Goku. In the Boo arc he admits that there is a large gap between him and Goku now, and he needs the power-up that being controlled by Babidi provides in order to fight equally with SSJ2 Goku.

Since Vegeta doesn't transform into an SSJ2 when first being taken over by Babidi, but only does so at will later, I think it's safe to assume he already had that ability, but that he realized his SSJ2 form would be no match for Goku's.

Well, there was also the mentality he had. Vegeta always associated compassion with weakness, and he was now a family man with attachments weighing him down, instead of a lone wolf with nothing to lose and nothing to care about.

Son_Gohan · Post by **Son_Gohan** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:23 pm

After Goku's fight with Yakon, Vegeta said something like "Kakkorot can go SSJ2 as well".

So he probably could transform at will.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:08 am

SSj Kaboom wrote:Even before he fought Goku, throughout the early Buu Arc Vegeta seemed confident that he was now stronger than Gohan. He witnessed Gohan's SSj2 power first-hand back in the Cell Games, so that's a claim I don't think he'd make unless he could transform in the same way. So I personally think that's all we need to confirm that he was capable of it. It's almost certain that in the last seven years he had reached it through harsh training, and he was simply "saving it" for his fight with Goku.

The level he sensed from Gohan was less than what he expected from Gohan. My impression from his running commentary on the matter throught that portion of the story was that he felt he was better than Gohan because he'd been training and Gohan was sloppy. There's not one single quote that specifically states it's because Vegeta is a SSJ2. I'm not saying the matter isn't debatable, of course.

Herms wrote:
B wrote:He "needed" it to get his Saiyan arc edge back.
His Saiyan arc edge was that he was a gazillion times stronger than Goku.

He wasn't *that* much more powerful. A little over twice as strong, and overcome with a 3x Kaio-ken. It's more what mAcChaos said- he felt he'd grown soft as a family man, and wanted that spark of insanity back from his genocidal days. True focus, and purity of evil. Factors that have been associated with Super Saiyan transformations. Speculation, I know, but the link is there. It is entirely possible that Vegeta had the power for SSJ2 but had lacked the motivational factor, what with the years of peace and living the married life and raising a kid things. Maybe he figured if he got a power boost and an alignment change back to Chaotic Evil, it would let him pop that last bubble.

In the Boo arc he admits that there is a large gap between him and Goku now, and he needs the power-up that being controlled by Babidi provides in order to fight equally with SSJ2 Goku.

The thing that sticks out to me is how Babidi claimed he was drawing out his latent powers. Is that line the same in the Japanese manga? The implication seemed, to me, that Babidi's charm didn't so much add power to the target (like playing the enchantment Unholy Strength +2/+1 in Magic: The Gathering) as it brought out inner strength with the price being mind control. Sort of an evil twist on what Saichorou could do.

My main thing against Vegeta hitting a new level, totally in secret, during those years is that it seems anti-climatic. The whole story has him scoffing at Gohan for losing power even as SSJ2 (and, Daizenshuu aside, seemingly fighting at SSJ1 with little effect), freaking out when he sees Goku go SSJ2, deciding that his attachments held him back, using magic to draw out inner strength and un-cloud his mind, go SSJ2, and then we get a period of "oh my gosh, Vegeta's gone beyond Super Saiyan!" moments.

It just seems very sloppy to have an ammendment to the effect of "actually guys, Vegeta could do this all along but he hid it on the off chance his dead rival might come back one day." Why all the "my family made me soft" BS if he had pulled off the form that buried Cell? And why would noone know about it? Vegeta's not the most subtle or humble fellow in the cast.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:33 am

Onikage725 wrote:It just seems very sloppy to have an ammendment to the effect of "actually guys, Vegeta could do this all along but he hid it on the off chance his dead rival might come back one day." Why all the "my family made me soft" BS if he had pulled off the form that buried Cell? And why would noone know about it? Vegeta's not the most subtle or humble fellow in the cast.

The Buu Saga is sloppy. SS3 has the same deal.

Also, Vegeta was planning on fighting Gohan at the Tournament even before Goku buzzed in with "hey y'all, I'm coming back". He also says to Gohan "Once you were far stronger than me. How about now?"

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:45 am

He knew that Gohan wasn't in shape though. He seemed to have knowledge that Gohan's daily routine was study or school, hang with brother, semi-dating after entering high school, etc. And, as Saiyan nobility, he basically saw that way of living as something one does if they want to become weak.

EDIT: The Buu Saga is a bit sloppy, agreed. I cut SSJ3 some slack because we aren't introduced to it elsewhere. Goku has it somehow, but he attained it in another plane of existence with a sturdy dead body. The only other time we see someone else do it is under fusion.

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:51 am

Rocketman wrote:
Onikage725 wrote:It just seems very sloppy to have an ammendment to the effect of "actually guys, Vegeta could do this all along but he hid it on the off chance his dead rival might come back one day." Why all the "my family made me soft" BS if he had pulled off the form that buried Cell? And why would noone know about it? Vegeta's not the most subtle or humble fellow in the cast.
The Buu Saga is sloppy. SS3 has the same deal.

Also, Vegeta was planning on fighting Gohan at the Tournament even before Goku buzzed in with "hey y'all, I'm coming back". He also says to Gohan "Once you were far stronger than me. How about now?"

Vegeta is the king of overestimating people. He probably thought he could take Gohan because he was so sloppy.

Then again, Gohan couldn't even go Super Saiyan 2 on command, so Vegeta probably WAS stronger. After all, they'd both be fighting at SSJ1, and Vegeta is by far better there with his discipline and training.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:35 am

mAcChaos wrote:Then again, Gohan couldn't even go Super Saiyan 2 on command,

Huh? Yes he could. He jumps straight into it at the Tournament versus Kibito.

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:48 pm

mAcChaos wrote:Vegeta is the king of overestimating people. He probably thought he could take Gohan because he was so sloppy.

Then again, Gohan couldn't even go Super Saiyan 2 on command, so Vegeta probably WAS stronger. After all, they'd both be fighting at SSJ1, and Vegeta is by far better there with his discipline and training.

Vegeta knew that Gohan could transform into Super Saiyan 2. He knew that Gohan hadn't been training and, as such, had decreased in power. This time, Vegeta wasn't bluffing about being stronger than Gohan, because he was. When someone claims they are stronger than someone, and they know how much stronger they can get, that counts all transformations.

Gohan could go SSJ2 on command. He transformed right in front of Kibito at the Tenka'ichi Budokai. In the first place, Kibito didn't even know about SSJ2 and only asked him to go SSJ. I'm not going to get into that "Why didn't Gohan go SSJ2 against Dabra" crap, because it's an unanswerable question.

goku the krump dancer · Post by **goku the krump dancer** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:02 pm

I don't see someone getting weaker by not training. I think it's more or less that they get rusty. I think that GT Goten and Trunks would lose to their younger selves. We all know pre-Elder Kai Gohan would lose to Cell Games Gohan... but I think, not because of some sort of power gap, but because of the mental and physical shape that he's in.

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:30 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:I don't see someone getting weaker by not training. I think it's more or less that they get rusty. I think that GT Goten and Trunks would lose to their younger selves. We all know pre-Elder Kai Gohan would lose to Cell Games Gohan... but I think, not because of some sort of power gap, but because of the mental and physical shape that he's in.

Vegeta became frustrated when Gohan was unable to defeat Dabra, claiming that he was stronger when he was a kid. This implies that Gohan at the Cell Games was stronger than his Boo Arc incarnation, and that he would've been able to defeat Dabra. This is Dragon World, not real world. Anyway, Gohan had become less rusty after training with Goten for the Tenka'ichi Budokai, and he certainly didn't appear rusty when he got his Mystic power-up and began pummelling Super Boo. That was to do with power, which basically eliminates any rustiness Gohan had gained in those 7 years of peace.

After Dragon Ball (pre-Z), power's the most important thing you need in a fight. It is stated in the manga that Son Gohan decreased in power due to not training.

FuniYamcha · Post by **FuniYamcha** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:41 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:I don't see someone getting weaker by not training. I think it's more or less that they get rusty. I think that GT Goten and Trunks would lose to their younger selves. We all know pre-Elder Kai Gohan would lose to Cell Games Gohan... but I think, not because of some sort of power gap, but because of the mental and physical shape that he's in.

I don't see why it's not possible that he couldn't have lost power. I mean, if you work out and become a bodybuilder, but then you stop exercising at all for 7 years, you would become significantly weaker. Obviously we're not just talking muscle with Gohan and the Z fighters, but I think the same theory could apply to battle powers. Otherwise they should be just as strong when they're 90 years old.