If you could change one thing about DB, what would it be?

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:48 pm

Everyone here loves DB, of course, but I've noticed various complaints about the series. The filler plot holes, inconsistent animation, lack of explanations, corny storylines, etc...

My question is this: If you could change one thing about the series, anything, what would it be? It can be for the series to not have had filler, for the Saiya-jins to not have taken over, for Toriyama to have ended it the way he wanted to, etc... Anything.

My choice would be for the series to have gone more in-depth about each of the characters. I would've liked to have seen more about Vegeta's past, Freeza's empire, the Vegeta/Bulma relationship (scratch that, ANY couple's relationship), Raditz and Bardock, the stuff that happened over the wide gaps between sagas, Vegeta after he self-destructed, etc... The series had too much of a 'fill-in-the-blanks' attitude. -_-

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:02 pm

I just wished they wouldn't have pushed Tenshinhan and Yamucha to the background, and that they wouldn't have spent so much time focused on the Trunks and Goten fighting Majin Buu business. There were just too many episodes of them. That's my only main complaint really.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:06 pm

In response to your point, maybe Toriyama likes fanfiction, so he left a lot of ideas for it. Sadly, it all just went to illogical character pairings.

Uhm, I would get rid of all fillers first considering the fact that they weren't even any good, and then I would say that the history of certain Saiyans and Freeza would be a good topic.

Actually, pretty much everything you said sounds good. But, with Bulma and Vegeta you just know that there can't be much to it, romancewise. Although Bulma does seem to be the only one who thinks he has a good side. He might have opened up to her, and only her.

I love DB already, though (as you said, of course).

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:06 pm

I'd want a "Bardock: The Story" chapter in the manga instead of a 2-panel flashback. Or even make the flashback longer like from when Bardock starts defending planet Vegeta and give him two words or something!

I'd like to have had 2 filler moments: 1 where Vegeta tells Trunks (chibi) about his past (which could tie-in with more Saiyan/Freeza Empire moments as well as a deeper look at Nappa and Radditz) during the 7 year gap between Cell and Boo. This could be done 4-6 years into the 7 years when Vegeta starts training Trunks.

The other filler I'd like is when Pan is training (flying around the world). I'd like to have seen her stop and have a side-quest à la early DB style in order to REALLY remenice(sp?) at the end of the manga and in order to learn more about her personality, strengths, etc.

Other than that I'm very pleased with the manga. Anime, however, I'd take out almost all filler moments unless the above was mentioned or unless screen caps like Radditz explanation of the Saiyans/moments like when Cell killed TL3 Trunks were done in regular non-filler explanation moments.

The movies I wouldn't change. They exist outside the normal contingency for pure fun. Well, except maybe DBZ movie 4. Whislting is the Namekian weak point?! Come ON! Then if the wind blows really strong they'd fall over in agony!

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:22 pm

Zackarotto wrote:But, with Bulma and Vegeta you just know that there can't be much to it, romancewise. Although Bulma does seem to be the only one who thinks he has a good side. He might have opened up to her, and only her.

Not so much romancewise (as in lovey-dovey stuff), but a better explanation about why Trunks was born, and how/why they grew closer later on. Vegeta did return to Capsule Corporation, even though he had moved out before the appearances of Dr. Gero and #19. I think there should have been more about their relationship and their thoughts about each other. There just wasn't much interaction between the two (or even most of the other couples). The couple wasn't illogical (I have an upcoming editorial about that), but there just should've been more.

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:26 pm

I would have liked to have seen the first meeting of Goten and Trunks, I really wanted to know more about those two's earlier adventures, that, really is all I wanted to see more of.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:31 pm

laserkid wrote:I would have liked to have seen the first meeting of Goten and Trunks, I really wanted to know more about those two's earlier adventures, that, really is all I wanted to see more of.

I would imagine that they were just dropped together in the same little playpen while the adults had their visits and needed to bring the kids. Early adventures sounds interesting.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:35 pm

I think I read a joke somewhere once, I forget where, that Buruma and Chi-Chi must have had them visit one another because no other toddler would have survived their play sessions.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:49 pm

Y'know, I've been thinking about this. Would I change the fights that go on for 10 episodes? I hate them, but somehow, I love them, so no. Would I change the ever so slightly repetitive plot? Again, no. Super powerful bag guy comes, beats everyone, until SOMEHOW the hero gets the strength to stand up and win...it's cliched, but done right, it's brilliant. It's like the anime standby of two energy beams pushing against each other. It's been done to death, but still, that Vegeta/Goku one really is awesome...

So instead, I'm going for the whole "humans pushed to the background" thing, mixed in with the overuse of the whole Super Saiyan concept. I loved it when Goku changed. I loved Vegeta's attempts to move beyond Super Saiyan. And Gohan's transformation against Cell...beautiful.

But I hate how it made everyone else redundent, how Tenshinhan was forced to stand around saying "Wow, Goku's ki is amazing. I have no hope of ever reaching it. Nope. Not at all".

I was watching an early DB episode today, the "General Blue"-era one with the robot. And I loved how Goku and Kuririn took the robot on as a pair. Sure, Kuririn got hit a bit more than Goku, but they were at least roughly in the same division, skill wise. If it had been mid to late DBZ, Kuririn would have been beaten to a pulp over 2 episodes, at which point Goku would run in and save them thanks to an ENORMOUS POWERUP he'd received for...some reason.

I mean, I watch early DB, and I love Yamcha! Being led away by Pu'ar, mumbling about Bulma's boobies. His cry of "I would wish to not be afraid of girls anymore", because "I can steal all the money I need, I have no use for the world, but this business of become all weak-kneed around girls is getting ridiculous". His dream of getting married. His Wolf Fang Fist.

And what does he end up as? A guy too afraid to enter the Tenchaichi Budokai, even though he's the 3rd strongest human on the planet and could destroy a large sized city without breaking a sweat.

Damn you, Super Saiyan Goku. Damn you, Super Saiyan Chibi Goten and Trunks. And damn you, Mr Toriyama!

Post by **TripleRach** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:50 pm

This same question came up on alt.fan.dragonball a few days ago, and, out of boredom, I made a very long post about it.

In a nutshell, I'd want the series to end with Freeza.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:52 pm

I can think of so many things...

Like a lot of people said already, I wouldve liked to seen more about Vegeta's youth and more of Freeza's empire. Their looks like their's so much background story there that Toriyama had locked away in his imagination...I doubt it's still in 'mint condition' though.

Secondly, I would've liked it if Raditz and Bardock hadn't completly dissapeared from the series after their first appearances. Even if they were dead, Goku was in the after life for 7 years too, so they could've had some kind of reunion episode. Think of the look on Raditz and Bardocks faces when they find out that he became a Super Saiyan?

Also like a lot of people said, I would've liked to have seen more attention on the relationships. DBZ started out as just a 'fighting manga/anime' but it really felt like it evolved from that, since it also started placing more emphasis on friendships, comradeship, and family. I think I remember Toriyama saying in an interview that he steered away from the relationships because it was embarrasing for him or something, it's a shame. I was really interested to find out how Vegeta/Bulma's relationship developed. Or how about 18 & Kuririn? You just know their was some really akward dates there.

I also would've liked to have seen the old characters (Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Yamucha, Chaozu) play a more active role. Really their only time to shine was during the Freeza saga when they beat the Ginyu force. In the Saiyan saga, they were only used as punching bags to demonstrate how powerful Nappa was. It's sad to see them after that, their only roles were as filler, and to pound home the concept of how weak humans were compared to the almighty blond aliens.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:56 pm

Super powerful bag guy comes, beats everyone, until SOMEHOW the hero gets the strength to stand up and win...

"bag guy" Liam? I didn't know that Freeza, Cell, and Buu were homeless people! Well yeah I guess they could be, I mean Freeza had lots of planets, but he never stayed on any of them long. Cell's lab was destroyed, poor guy, the only home he ever knew. And well hey, everyone knows that that Babidi and Buu were just deadbeat losers who hung around on planets with nothing better to do but vandilize things. But still Psy, should Goku and the others really be beating them up? Shouldn't we be trying to get these poor "victims" of society's cruelty some help?

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:02 am

Such great points. A direct message about PsyLiam's post, though:

Toriyama loves to show you that the general population of earth is full of overconfident idiots. Yamcha might have been to scared to enter, but it lets you see things Toriyama's way. When you see the hundreds of other fighters every year, you think "those fools have no idea what they're getting themselves into..." right?

But yeah, I can see how the way certain Dragonball characters ended up is usually considered tragic.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:17 am

Zackarotto wrote:Toriyama loves to show you that the general population of earth is full of overconfident idiots. Yamcha might have been to scared to enter, but it lets you see things Toriyama's way. When you see the hundreds of other fighters every year, you think "those fools have no idea what they're getting themselves into..." right?

But it's exactly that! Early Yamcha was confident in his fighting ability. By this point, well, as the dub put it, "I'd just embarass myself". By doing what? By being stronger than EVERYONE outside the Z group? Eh?

And he didn't even get married. Poor guy.

I just think that the whole "we'll demonstrate how powerful a bag guy is by having everyone else's attacks be unable to even defeat him" tactic tried with Nappa was used to death. And, even more strangely, after Goku had actually turned up and fought for a bit, everyone else was suddenly a lot more capable. Gohan could suddenly fight a bit with Vegeta, even though he was weaker than Kuririn at that point, who'd had his arse handed to him by Nappa. Same thing happened with Freeza, when Gohan turned up and fought with him for a bit.

And as for Jerseymilk's comments: Well, no-one was stopping them from going out and getting jobs were they? But no...they had to hang around and be a drain on the tax payer. Hell, I'm sure Babidi even tried to claim benefits despite being an illegal immigrant. It's an outrage, I tells you!

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:34 am

BRAAAAA!!!! Why was she not trained by Vegeta? Was she trained by him? We dunno. (Then GT comes along and makes her a Valley Girl that HE fawns over. THAT'S another reason I'm a manga purist) Most likely Vegeta would have trained her at least self defense techniques (make her stronger than Radditz or something).

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:24 am

Dayspring wrote:BRAAAAA!!!! Why was she not trained by Vegeta? Was she trained by him? We dunno. (Then GT comes along and makes her a Valley Girl that HE fawns over. THAT'S another reason I'm a manga purist) Most likely Vegeta would have trained her at least self defense techniques (make her stronger than Radditz or something).

You raise a very good point Dayspring. GT really botched that part up...Their's no way Vegeta would've not trained Bra, if nothing else just to keep up with Pan. I don't think Vegeta's ego wouldve allowed him to otherwise.

Besides Bra is half Saiyan, and just like Gohan, Goten, and Trunks, her natural desire to fight would've been very strong. I just can't see her becoming so ditzy like she was in GT.

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:24 am

I love threads like this. ^_^

Naming things that could have been, here's a few I would have loved to see...

The one that's strongest in my mind at the moment would be Bardock's reaction to seeing both of his sons fall in one fell blow. In the Buu saga we see the villains of DB watching a crystal ball that shows the events of the outside world. I picture the Saiya-jin race watching their own survivors lives play out on something similar. The Saiya-jins watching their Prince reduced into being a slave, Bardock watching his youngest son grow and battle, so many possibilities that were never used.

Another would be Piccolo and Gohan's discussions each night when they were training. In the manga we get only one brief scene at night, and a few moments of them fighting against each other. In the anime we get a bit more, but not much. As he was dying, Piccolo said that Gohan was the only person that ever really talked to him. It would have been great to see more of their relationship grow, to see Piccolo's reaction to the little four-year-old's sweetness. This reminds me, they just released a new figure in Japan as part of a set of mini-figures, it has Piccolo sitting cross-legged and gazing down at a sleeping Gohan leaning against his leg. Too cute!

Sorry, but I'm too ill to think up any more... Damn cold...

It's sad that the human warriors got punted aside, but at least they had their moments in DB (excluding Yamucha, who always got punted aside no matter what the series). But I'd say the the characters of GT got it worse... The writers apparently forgot Vegeta's past, since they reintroduced his rivalry with Goku, something he had long since given up. They made him kind've... antisocial and tetchy, even though at the end of Z he's friendly and joking with Goku about how the sum of their worries was lazy children. They changed his character design, getting rid of his trademark hair and making him even bigger than before, etc... the list of crimes goes on and on... Bra and Marron ended up as airheaded ditzes, Bulma... airhead, Videl... airhead, Goten and Trunks barely resembled what they had been at the end of Z, Goku ended up as a caricature of himself, everyone seemed to forget their strength and abilities, #18's lack of caring about her own brother's death (as well as not bothering to restore his life), and most importantly... the lack of anthropomorphic animals! Where did they all go?! Did they get eaten by the humans?! *bawls*

GT had so much wasted potential... To have that series totally rewritten would be my #2 for what I'd have liked changed.

Concerning filler... Sure, there was lots of lousy filler (Ginyu Tokusentai at Kaiou's, anyone?), but there was lots of good filler too. The supposed 'filler' (I don't consider it filler, but that's for a later editorial...) was what helped explain many points in the series and filled in the gaps. It was the filler episode #124 that helped explain why Bulma became interested in Vegeta, it was filler that gave us even an inkling of what training Goku went through under Popo, it was filler that gave us the pink shirt incident (^_^), it was filler that gave us Bardock's story (yes, Toriyama may have accepted it as canon later, but when it came out it was filler), it was filler that gave us all those little bits of character interaction that the manga terribly lacked.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:38 am

I agree with you about the fillers Alias. I enjoyed a lot of them. I especially enjoyed the first episode ever of DBZ when we're first introduced to Gohan while he's lost in the woods and Goku is searching for him. I also like the episode a little later with Gohan and the robot. I'm sure it's partially because of my Gohan bias, but even though those episodes were nothing but filler, to me they were really delightful and sweet. And hey, don't tell me that whole episode with Goku visiting Princess Snake didn't make you laugh.

tablet the eunuch · Post by **tablet the eunuch** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:57 am

I'd change the misconceptions that any two characters of the same sex ever engaged in sexual conduct, and you know who I'm talking about *cough*goku*cough*vegeta*cough*. I want to do this with everything though, because even if it's your imagination, they STILL DO NOT PUT PENISES OR TAILS UP EACH OTHERS ANUSES OR MOUTHS, THANK YOU MS DERRANGED FANGIRL

SonGohan-san · Post by **SonGohan-san** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:18 pm

I agree with everything you wrote, Alias. In addition, I'd really like to have known more about Tienshinhan's background (the filler where it shows Tao Pai Pai beating the crap beat out of him in the rain with The Crane Elder looking on was some of the most amazing characterization of the entire series--I just wanted more!! (and someone here said they'd like for there to be no fillers, ppfff)). What about Goku's mother? Or Vegita's even? I mean, they are the main guys in the last half of Z and we don't know too terribly much about their ancestry or Veggie's childhood/ teenage years. And its obvious people care to know when they try to fabricate that Goku's mother was that one female Saiyan that worked under Bardock. What about Kuririn's past? The most background we get on the guy is at the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai where he beats up on his old bullies. Really, its amazing how close we, the viewers/readers, were able to grow to these various characters when we actually know so little about them. I mean, we know A TON about their personalities, but not about their life's story. The Furiza Empire thing you suggested really echoed my thoughts. (It's funny, now with the advent of Kuriiza, Furiza seems to have had another dimension added his character, even if it is based on a gag). Instead of that filler ep with Bulma chasing after the Dragon Ball with Blueberry and Rasberry with "Mrs. Crab", I would have loved to have seen an episode highlighting Furiza's rise to power/his history/whatever. I thought the Toei filler at the very end of the Cell Games (where Cell did the narration before big Kame Hame Ha war) did a pretty sufficient job capturing Cell's past. He's kinda an exception for DB villians. Even more, what about 17 and 18? That would be extremely cool to know about. Someone on this forum said they might have been the eqivalent of biker delinquents because of that episode where they confront the bikers and there may be hints of recognition amongst the two parties. I like that idea. And I would like there to have been a tiny bit more on Gero's stint with the RR Army--like say, a flashback of him talking to the Red Leader or something. Or even how he captured 17 and 18, which would interesting moment to learn their first names so Kuririn can call her by something else later on (he'd somehow find out on his own, I guess). Of course, its stupid to expect this type of development out of every single character. I just named some of the ones that seemed to make sense in this guy's view. For instance, I see no sense in elaborating on Pilaf's character. He's fun, he wants to rule the world, and it's good the way that is on its own. But other's are just screaming for development.

One other thing...

Majin Buu Premise—To me, it would have made much more sense to set the plot for the Buu saga up in the following manner:

Instead of having Buu’s sphere hidden on earth, which is a HUGE coincidence in it self, have Babidi find the hidden sphere on some obscure planet far, far, away. Then, have the story go that he used the instrument in his ship which measured “killis”, to travel to planets which were inhabited by more powerful beings in order to expediate the otherwise tedious process of collecting enough damage energy to resurrect Buu. Say he continued doing this for X amount of years until one day his intrument picked up a reading from a far distant planet in the universe that was off the charts (this reading would result from the climactic beam war between Gohan and Cell at the end of the Cell Games). Babidi then estimates and judges that it would take less time for him to make the long journey to this planet of powerful beings and collect the energy there then it would for him continue at the rate he was currently on. The journey would take seven years and the saga would then start to play out virtually the same way, just with a less sloppy premise.

I'm not trying to to be Akira Toriyama, here. But you asked, and that's how I feel. Good question, too.

Oh yeah, and no SSJ3 or SSJ Goten/Trunks.

Kanzenshuu

If you could change one thing about DB, what would it be?

If you could change one thing about DB, what would it be?

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