Vegeta's dubbed death speech more accurate than we think?

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:19 pm

penguintruth wrote:This is my favorite part of the English dub version, by the way:

There's no stinking honor in any of this! It's just a game, played to win, with no rules!
Vegeta, ladies in gentleman: expert in honor.

What with the beating the shit out of little kids and killing innocent civilians.

Also, "a game, played to win, with no rules"? It's not a game if there aren't any rules, and if it were a game, of course it would be played to win. All games are played to win! Your pithy summary of current events is flawed, dub Vegeta!

Context man. He was just trying to say it to explain to Goku why he can't be soft.

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:00 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
penguintruth wrote:This is my favorite part of the English dub version, by the way:

There's no stinking honor in any of this! It's just a game, played to win, with no rules!
Vegeta, ladies in gentleman: expert in honor.

What with the beating the shit out of little kids and killing innocent civilians.

Also, "a game, played to win, with no rules"? It's not a game if there aren't any rules, and if it were a game, of course it would be played to win. All games are played to win! Your pithy summary of current events is flawed, dub Vegeta!
Context man. He was just trying to say it to explain to Goku why he can't be soft.

Granted, I was just fooling around with that part, but it does sound a bit lame, especially for Vegeta.

Puto · Post by **Puto** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:24 am

Gogeta 00 wrote:
Captain Awesome wrote:I think you're giving them too much credit.

Vegeta's awful death speech in the dub was part of a constant and deliberate attempt by FUNimation to whitewash the Saiya-jin from ruthless bloodthirsty space barbarians into an honour bound, almost noble race of warriors that were simply mislead by a galactic tyrant. I can certainly understand why they did it, after all the dub was tripping over itself trying to turn Vegeta into a good guy as quickly as possible at that stage, but some throwaway filler in the anime doesn't really justify ignoring everything that had been established about Vegeta's character and the Saiya-jin race up to that point just because they want to make things a little more kiddie friendly.
After abandoning the english dub in favor of the original, I now know that nowhere is this idea pushed heavier then in the dub of the Bardock special.

This. The rewritten final Bardock speech in the dub... ugh.

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:21 am

It is a little insulting towards the audience to try to make Vegeta a "good guy" so prematurely. Like the audience is too simple to understand a character who is still pretty evil, but may have a point about something, or some redeeming quality, or that we can at least temporarily feel bad for them, despite their terrible actions.

Not to mention it's so inconsistent. When Vegeta returns to life, he laughs about Goku's apparent death and beats on Gohan.

Just like they insult us by trying to turn Goku into this straight-edged white knight type who goes around giving speeches on morality. The original Goku is pure-hearted enough without making him into some boy scout.

And if this is what Funimation thought of DBZ imagine what they would have done with something like Legend of the Galactic Heroes, with the more complex motivations of its characters.

Big Momma · Post by **Big Momma** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:33 am

penguintruth wrote:
Just like they insult us by trying to turn Goku into this straight-edged white knight type who goes around giving speeches on morality. The original Goku is pure-hearted enough without making him into some boy scout.

And if this is what Funimation thought of DBZ imagine what they would have done with something like Legend of the Galactic Heroes, with the more complex motivations of its characters.

In their defense, though, DBZ was brought over during/directly following the time period where shows like Batman: The Animated Series and Superman: TAS were in their heyday in America. There's no denying that the entire "Superhero of Justice" image is very popular in America, and they were trying to play off of that.

Granted, that doesn't change the fact that later re-dubs could have been done better, but when it started, this seemed to be the best route to go. To be honest, can you think of many American comic/animation heroes similar to Goku's attitude and personality? I can't.

Kingdom Heartless · Post by **Kingdom Heartless** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:47 am

Granted, that doesn't change the fact that later re-dubs could have been done better, but when it started, this seemed to be the best route to go.

But again, you can also see why they may not have changed it in the redubs. I mean, by that stage they already had an established fanbase, so it would be harder to change it without irritating people.

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:47 am

Hell, even Superman wasn't as corny in STAS as Goku was sometimes in the dub.

He was more like Captain Marvel in JLU.

Superman: I thought *I* was the boy scout.
Batman: I did too, until I met Captain Marvel.

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:58 am

penguintruth wrote:Hell, even Superman wasn't as corny in STAS as Goku was sometimes in the dub.

That was the point of Post-crisis Supes. Watch the episode "Identity Crisis" where Supes gives a corny speech to kids about accepting dares. It is the first thing that makes some people realize something isn't quite right.

But with Big Momma's saying, also remember, season 3 was a rushjob and their butts were on the line, so is why they did how they did that season.

Dr. Casey · Post by **Dr. Casey** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:20 am

Super Sonic wrote:But with Big Momma's saying, also remember, season 3 was a rushjob and their butts were on the line, so is why they did how they did that season.

Agreed.

Though I have to wonder why seasons 4, 5, 6, and all the rest were just as bad considering that they were no longer quite so rushed.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:25 am

Dr. Casey wrote:
Super Sonic wrote:But with Big Momma's saying, also remember, season 3 was a rushjob and their butts were on the line, so is why they did how they did that season.
Agreed.

Though I have to wonder why seasons 4, 5, 6, and all the rest were just as bad considering that they were no longer quite so rushed.

While they never stopped being completely insulting to the original show, the quality of the FUNImation in-house dub vocal performance did improve greatly with each "season". They reached their peak during the Boo Arc, then sort of dropped to consistent mediocrity for the "Ultimate Uncuts" and Movies from there on out.

IncompetentOverlord · Post by **IncompetentOverlord** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:03 pm

Even though I love the dub version of this scene (It's one of the only 2 parts of the series I like better in english), and occasionally like to believe in that rubbish about the saiyans being "Noble" (Mostly after watching the Bardock special, whether subbed or dubbed.) I have to admit that it was an incredible turn from his character in the previous episodes. Hell, I can see where a lot of younger fans got the notion that Goku and Vegeta are brothers. They totally act the part in the dub version of this scene!

XanatosVanBadass · Post by **XanatosVanBadass** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:33 pm

penguintruth wrote:And if this is what Funimation thought of DBZ imagine what they would have done with something like Legend of the Galactic Heroes, with the more complex motivations of its characters.

Oh, my god! As of now, I know like 5 people who have even heard of this show!

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:41 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
penguintruth wrote:And if this is what Funimation thought of DBZ imagine what they would have done with something like Legend of the Galactic Heroes, with the more complex motivations of its characters.
Oh, my god! As of now, I know like 5 people who have even heard of this show!

Had to look it up just now, since its title makes it sound like a Superfriends spinoff.

Commander_Red · Post by **Commander_Red** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:10 pm

The Vegeta story on Kanzentai is a good read.

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:47 pm

Super Sonic wrote:
XanatosVanBadass wrote:
penguintruth wrote:And if this is what Funimation thought of DBZ imagine what they would have done with something like Legend of the Galactic Heroes, with the more complex motivations of its characters.
Oh, my god! As of now, I know like 5 people who have even heard of this show!
Had to look it up just now, since its title makes it sound like a Superfriends spinoff.

It could not be any more different, lol.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:04 am

Touching on the whole pride thing, I'd like to think Vegeta was proud to be a Saiyan. I brought this topic up with a few other people(fans of Dragonball but not on Daizex) and they all said that the Japanese Vegeta had a lot of pride just like the American Dub.

The way he carries himself, his confidence while first appearing on earth, all show that he is proud to be a Saiyan and he(up until meeting Goku) believed he was the best of the best next to Frieza. Sure he was a puppet to Frieza, but the fact that he was after the Dragonballs for immortality shows that he had plans to take out Frieza prior to his appearance in Z.

In terms of the speech itself, even with all the cliche changes it almost comes close. There are lines that are more than laughable, nor is it as emotional as the original but for me it got the job done. The message was the same albeit delivered in two completely different ways, so for that I didn't mind.

However, I would like to see a re-write in the near future. I mean when you think of the target audience back then the cliche lines and child friendly dialog was acceptable but even the children from back then are older so there should be no reason why they don't go ahead and correct their mistakes. It would make everyone happy and give funimation more credibility as a company.

KaiserNeko · Post by **KaiserNeko** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:09 am

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:In terms of the speech itself, even with all the cliche changes it almost comes close. There are lines that are more than laughable, nor is it as emotional as the original but for me it got the job done. The message was the same albeit delivered in two completely different ways, so for that I didn't mind.

No offense, but I don't see that.

Dub: He made me what I am today and I totally cared about my father.

VS.

Sub: He used us, made light of our entire race, and insulted us as a whole.

Sprite Satan · Post by **Sprite Satan** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:11 am

Vegeta's "pride" as a Saiyan is merely a conduit created by Vegeta to give himself even more of an ego in some form of douche bag feedback loop.

He's not proud of any Saiyan accomplishments. He wasn't terribly moved by his planet's destruction. He had no desire to try and forge a new Saiyan empire, an opportunity presented at least once in the series and once in the movies. As leader of the last four Saiyans in the universe, he had no desire to revive the deceased Raditz, killed Nappa and would have gladly killed Goku.

Vegeta's Saiyan pride is just a drawn out way of saying Vegeta's Vegeta pride. Vegeta is a Saiyan, so he's proud of that. He has spiky hair, so he's proud of that. He never wore pink (until he did), so he's proud of that. He eats all his meat so he does in fact get pudding, so he's proud of that.

If Vegeta took a dump on a sidewalk he'd pronounce it proof of his superiority somehow and how proud the turd was.

Khalid Shahin · Post by **Khalid Shahin** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:12 am

Sprite Satan wrote:Vegeta's "pride" as a Saiyan is merely a conduit created by Vegeta to give himself even more of an ego in some form of douche bag feedback loop.

He's not proud of any Saiyan accomplishments. He wasn't terribly moved by his planet's destruction. He had no desire to try and forge a new Saiyan empire, an opportunity presented at least once in the series and once in the movies. As leader of the last four Saiyans in the universe, he had no desire to revive the deceased Raditz, killed Nappa and would have gladly killed Goku.

Vegeta's Saiyan pride is just a drawn out way of saying Vegeta's Vegeta pride. Vegeta is a Saiyan, so he's proud of that. He has spiky hair, so he's proud of that. He never wore pink (until he did), so he's proud of that. He eats all his meat so he does in fact get pudding, so he's proud of that.

If Vegeta took a dump on a sidewalk he'd pronounce it proof of his superiority somehow and how proud the turd was.

How does the whole "Prince Vegeta" thing fit into all of this? Is it just that he has pride of the fact that he is a prince, and doesn't care much of what?

Sprite Satan · Post by **Sprite Satan** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:36 am

Khalid Shahin wrote:How does the whole "Prince Vegeta" thing fit into all of this? Is it just that he has pride of the fact that he is a prince, and doesn't care much of what?

Pretty much. Vegeta believes being the Prince of Saiyans is great because Vegeta is the Prince of Saiyans. It concerns Vegeta, therefore it must be awesome. If he was Imperial Stableboy, he'd brag about being the most elite horse dung shoveler in all the universe.

Now, that might change as the series goes on, but around the time of his death on Namek, I don't think Vegeta had much pride in anything but Vegeta.