I'd have kept SSJ Goten/Trunks since they're over exposed to SSJ and are half-Saiyans. Trunks picks it up from Vegeta then "teaches" Goten how (aka: Goten mimics Trunks turning SSJ). Instead of SSJ3 Gotenks though I'd have SSJ2. Just make fusion responsible for their 00ber power.
As for the Boo saga premise, I TOTALLY agree w/you 100%. In the manga they were surprised to find anybody of strength on Earth, but were still intending to gather tons of strength from lots of the strongest weaklings. Why would they abandon this theory in Mirai Trunks' timeline just because there's no 00ber powerful ppl?
If you could change one thing about DB, what would it be?
Last edited by Dayspring on Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SonGohan-san
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Jerseymilk
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I also like your suggestion concerning Babidi coming to earth SonGohan-san. It makes a lot of sense. And I also think Goten and Trunks just obtained SSJ too easily. By the time of the Buu saga, acheiving Super Saiyajin practically became no more than an amusing parlour trick, which is a real shame considering what Goku, Vegita, and Gohan gad to go through to reach it. 
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SonGohan-san
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Well... I'd like to know where you got that one from, since nothing of the like is ever mentioned. I always figured it was the other way around, because Goten asks if he can change to look like Gohan, and then turns SSJ...Dayspring wrote:I'd have kept SSJ Goten/Trunks since they're over exposed to SSJ and are half-Saiyans. Trunks picks it up from Vegeta then "teaches" Goten how (aka: Goten mimics Trunks turning SSJ).
That, or I just refuse to believe that arrogant little prat Chibi Trunks ever did anything good... Besides being blown up.
What would I like to see changed? Well, like Son Gohan-san said, character histories would be nice... Though I would be particularly interested in more of the Saiya-jin history. How they came upon Planet Planet, where they came from in the first place, etc...
[url=http://www.projectafter.com]Project AFTER[/url]: Every fanfiction's worst nightmare.
Planet Planet? Wasn't it Planet Plant?
Not that it matters, since either would be the most stupid name ever used in Dragonball (and believe me, there's a lot of competition).
SGS made a good point about the filler episodes. It's not that they are inherently bad by themselves, rather the complete lack of imagination causes them to grate. Some good ones add an extra dimension, a fun story, but the bad ones just make you ache for them to get back to the main fight.
The Freeza saga one you mentioned is a good case in point. The backstory we got on Vegeta, Raditz and Nappa serving Freeza was potentially really good, and only ruined by the massive continuity errors it created. But still, well done for trying. Bulma vs Freeza's troops and crab thing? Boring as hell.
Same with late Freeza saga stuff. Chris P once made a good point on DBZ Uncensored: At the end of the Freeza saga, Mr Popo goes off to capture the Dragon Balls. Mr Popo! But do we see that? No, we see Dr Briefs twatting around with a spaceship, and Bulma getting turned into a frog. Gagh!
Not that it matters, since either would be the most stupid name ever used in Dragonball (and believe me, there's a lot of competition).
SGS made a good point about the filler episodes. It's not that they are inherently bad by themselves, rather the complete lack of imagination causes them to grate. Some good ones add an extra dimension, a fun story, but the bad ones just make you ache for them to get back to the main fight.
The Freeza saga one you mentioned is a good case in point. The backstory we got on Vegeta, Raditz and Nappa serving Freeza was potentially really good, and only ruined by the massive continuity errors it created. But still, well done for trying. Bulma vs Freeza's troops and crab thing? Boring as hell.
Same with late Freeza saga stuff. Chris P once made a good point on DBZ Uncensored: At the end of the Freeza saga, Mr Popo goes off to capture the Dragon Balls. Mr Popo! But do we see that? No, we see Dr Briefs twatting around with a spaceship, and Bulma getting turned into a frog. Gagh!
Unsure.
The first thing about DRagonball I would change
would simply be to remove the character of Mr. Satan
from the series entirely. The arrival of his character almost
signals an entirely new Dragon World, one that has wiped
all memory of Piccolo Daimao, or the beautifully orchestrated
battle between Piccolo and Goku. DragonBall n anime is complete
telling the story of the extrordinary boy with a tail. Who time and
time again proves himself a hero and eventually when faced
with the ultimate evil, overtakes it. The end of Dragonball is so
well written and so prfect as a final end to the already massive
story it makes you wonder what else can be done. Simply put, with Volume 17 of the manga and the beginning of "Dragonball Z"
Toriyama felt he had discovered an even better ending to the
story of Goku. Explain how where his strength comes from,
introducing the Saiyans and bringing back the dynamic characters
that made up Dragonball, i.e. Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Yajirobe, CHoazu, and untie them with the greatest evil they had faced up
to that point PIccolo. The beginning of Dragonball Z ending with
the death of Furiza is the absoute best way to wrap up Dragonball. It gives Goku a past, intoduces villians all from the same race as
the the geatest fighter anyone on earth has ever seen and then
one up that by making them stronger. Create a devastating dynamic by killing off most of the heroes from the previous series, as well as
the greatest threat from the previous series. Give Piccolo a past
and then remove the dragonballs from the entire equation. This is the basic format for the rest of Dragonball Z showcased fresh.
Then continue by sending the series into outer space,
at the time a completly new dimension that since the Furiza
saga wore itself out. While on PIccolo's HOME PLANET introduce
what is as a character the most chilling villian in the entire series. The one responsible for wiping out GOku's entire native people, Furiza. Then throw the entire story through so many loops it brings you back beggingfor more . Finish it all of with the biggest battle ever
seen before, the fight between GOku and Furiza. Wherein
Goku aquires the status as the Ultimate membe of his race
by becoming the legendary Super Saiyan.
THE END...no i'm sorry, due to the extreme popularty of
your work you are going to have to continue Toriyma-san.
From this point on the series does not arrive a decent place
for a finale until the destruction of Buu. After the destruction
of FUriza Toriyama's earth suddenly forgets about Piccolo
Daimao or the Arrival of VEgeta and Nappa, which if you
remeber was all televised, but instead have begun to worship Mr. Satan the champion of the Tenkaichi Budokai...wait a second?
Didn't Kame SEnnin, Tenshinhan, and Goku win the TEnkaichi Budokai...how much fame did they receive. Sure you can
argue that they lived on remote areas of the planet and Satan adored the spotlight but in retrospect how easy would be to forget the boy who
A.) Saved the world against a green Demon who promised to destroy the world cty by city
B.) Saved the world against Self Described Aliens.
The character of Satan added a lone ranger man behind a mask dynamic that proved useless and in many ways ruined some aspects of the show.
So in summation (about time.) the two things I would
change about DRagonball Z woluld be "THE REMOVAL OF SATAN" and "FOR THE SERIES TO END WHEN TORIYAMA INTENDED FOR IT TOO." This is my first post here so please cut me as much slack as
you feel I deserve.
would simply be to remove the character of Mr. Satan
from the series entirely. The arrival of his character almost
signals an entirely new Dragon World, one that has wiped
all memory of Piccolo Daimao, or the beautifully orchestrated
battle between Piccolo and Goku. DragonBall n anime is complete
telling the story of the extrordinary boy with a tail. Who time and
time again proves himself a hero and eventually when faced
with the ultimate evil, overtakes it. The end of Dragonball is so
well written and so prfect as a final end to the already massive
story it makes you wonder what else can be done. Simply put, with Volume 17 of the manga and the beginning of "Dragonball Z"
Toriyama felt he had discovered an even better ending to the
story of Goku. Explain how where his strength comes from,
introducing the Saiyans and bringing back the dynamic characters
that made up Dragonball, i.e. Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Yajirobe, CHoazu, and untie them with the greatest evil they had faced up
to that point PIccolo. The beginning of Dragonball Z ending with
the death of Furiza is the absoute best way to wrap up Dragonball. It gives Goku a past, intoduces villians all from the same race as
the the geatest fighter anyone on earth has ever seen and then
one up that by making them stronger. Create a devastating dynamic by killing off most of the heroes from the previous series, as well as
the greatest threat from the previous series. Give Piccolo a past
and then remove the dragonballs from the entire equation. This is the basic format for the rest of Dragonball Z showcased fresh.
Then continue by sending the series into outer space,
at the time a completly new dimension that since the Furiza
saga wore itself out. While on PIccolo's HOME PLANET introduce
what is as a character the most chilling villian in the entire series. The one responsible for wiping out GOku's entire native people, Furiza. Then throw the entire story through so many loops it brings you back beggingfor more . Finish it all of with the biggest battle ever
seen before, the fight between GOku and Furiza. Wherein
Goku aquires the status as the Ultimate membe of his race
by becoming the legendary Super Saiyan.
THE END...no i'm sorry, due to the extreme popularty of
your work you are going to have to continue Toriyma-san.
From this point on the series does not arrive a decent place
for a finale until the destruction of Buu. After the destruction
of FUriza Toriyama's earth suddenly forgets about Piccolo
Daimao or the Arrival of VEgeta and Nappa, which if you
remeber was all televised, but instead have begun to worship Mr. Satan the champion of the Tenkaichi Budokai...wait a second?
Didn't Kame SEnnin, Tenshinhan, and Goku win the TEnkaichi Budokai...how much fame did they receive. Sure you can
argue that they lived on remote areas of the planet and Satan adored the spotlight but in retrospect how easy would be to forget the boy who
A.) Saved the world against a green Demon who promised to destroy the world cty by city
B.) Saved the world against Self Described Aliens.
The character of Satan added a lone ranger man behind a mask dynamic that proved useless and in many ways ruined some aspects of the show.
So in summation (about time.) the two things I would
change about DRagonball Z woluld be "THE REMOVAL OF SATAN" and "FOR THE SERIES TO END WHEN TORIYAMA INTENDED FOR IT TOO." This is my first post here so please cut me as much slack as
you feel I deserve.
No slack for you! BAN!
Vegeta+Nappa being filmed was anime filler. Nobody knew about who killed Piccolo but the King (who didn't know who Goku was). When the Namek stuff happened everybody was on Earth so they never knew about the aliens or Super Saiyan or whatever. When the androids+Cell came nobody knew about that either. What they did know was the Tenkaichi Budoukai was taking place. Satan won so officially he is the strongest in the world. Cell declares Cell Games in 9 days, Satan says he'll fight. Satan "wins" Cell Games, so he is officially the saviour of the world. Then he "defeats Boo".
Vegeta+Nappa being filmed was anime filler. Nobody knew about who killed Piccolo but the King (who didn't know who Goku was). When the Namek stuff happened everybody was on Earth so they never knew about the aliens or Super Saiyan or whatever. When the androids+Cell came nobody knew about that either. What they did know was the Tenkaichi Budoukai was taking place. Satan won so officially he is the strongest in the world. Cell declares Cell Games in 9 days, Satan says he'll fight. Satan "wins" Cell Games, so he is officially the saviour of the world. Then he "defeats Boo".
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Er, y'know, you don't actually have to hit return every 10 words or so. Modern technology has this thing we call "word wrap", where it automatically goes on to the next line for you.
Amazing, isn't it? They'll have babies on the moon, next.
In any case, I can sort of see your point. But what makes the "Z" era of the story work for me is, basically, Gohan. You ever seen the end sequence of Budokai? After showing cut scenes from all over the game, it ends with a series of special ones...Gohan bursting out of Raditz's space-pod, Gohan carring Piccolo on Namek, and Gohan firing his super Kamehameha wave at Cell.
Dragonball was about Goku growing up. But Goku, bless him, is a simple character (or perhaps more acuratly, an iconic character). He loved to fight, wanted to be strong, got strong, and beat people. Yay! But Gohan, he never wanted any of that. He was terrified of everyone when they first met him, and he was scared all the way through the fight with Nappa. He was a little boy. A boy with extraordinary power, but a boy. Watching him mature, grow stronger, and finally accept his anger as a necessary thing in order to defeat Cell...it's all great.
Even Toriyama once said (apparently) that DBZ is the story of Gohan. So while your nice little wrap up works for Goku, it deprives us of another important story.
And as for the Buu saga...it's nice. It has some interesting ideas. And in some ways, I love the sillyness of Majin Buu, the kids, and everything. But as the grand finale...it doesn't work. Gohan starts as a ever-so-slightly nerdy teenager, and ends in the same place, Mystic power-up or no. Goku starts being dead, and ends up being alive, but was the fight personal? No. In fact, it wasn't personal for anyone. The Saiyans were Goku's race, Freeza was the one who killed Goku and Vegeta's home planet, and the Androids were the ones who half destroyed Earth in Trunks' future. Buu had nothing like that (apart from a "destroy the Earth only for it to be revived later thing). In fact, the only character who really benefits from the Buu saga in terms of character growth is Vegeta, and he gets that in spades.
Although I do like Mr Satan. His sheer absurdity is, well, great. And Goten is cute. Yup.
Amazing, isn't it? They'll have babies on the moon, next.
In any case, I can sort of see your point. But what makes the "Z" era of the story work for me is, basically, Gohan. You ever seen the end sequence of Budokai? After showing cut scenes from all over the game, it ends with a series of special ones...Gohan bursting out of Raditz's space-pod, Gohan carring Piccolo on Namek, and Gohan firing his super Kamehameha wave at Cell.
Dragonball was about Goku growing up. But Goku, bless him, is a simple character (or perhaps more acuratly, an iconic character). He loved to fight, wanted to be strong, got strong, and beat people. Yay! But Gohan, he never wanted any of that. He was terrified of everyone when they first met him, and he was scared all the way through the fight with Nappa. He was a little boy. A boy with extraordinary power, but a boy. Watching him mature, grow stronger, and finally accept his anger as a necessary thing in order to defeat Cell...it's all great.
Even Toriyama once said (apparently) that DBZ is the story of Gohan. So while your nice little wrap up works for Goku, it deprives us of another important story.
And as for the Buu saga...it's nice. It has some interesting ideas. And in some ways, I love the sillyness of Majin Buu, the kids, and everything. But as the grand finale...it doesn't work. Gohan starts as a ever-so-slightly nerdy teenager, and ends in the same place, Mystic power-up or no. Goku starts being dead, and ends up being alive, but was the fight personal? No. In fact, it wasn't personal for anyone. The Saiyans were Goku's race, Freeza was the one who killed Goku and Vegeta's home planet, and the Androids were the ones who half destroyed Earth in Trunks' future. Buu had nothing like that (apart from a "destroy the Earth only for it to be revived later thing). In fact, the only character who really benefits from the Buu saga in terms of character growth is Vegeta, and he gets that in spades.
Although I do like Mr Satan. His sheer absurdity is, well, great. And Goten is cute. Yup.
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Jerseymilk
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SonGohan-san
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This is mostly in response to what Beelz had wrote:
To be fair to the anime as well, I don't think they got too much footage of the Nappa/Vegita encounter, did they?
It seemed like everytime they showed up, Nappa killed them all off.
Plus, the announcer of the Tenkaichi Budokai as well the King of Earth (at least I think), and even the Cell Games announcer were all very suspicious of Mr. Satan's credibility. (I may be wrong on a few of those, but I'm quite certain that SOMEWHERE (it may an obscure source) that is mentioned or made apparent.)
Plus, didn't you hear Mr. Satan?! It was all done by tricks. If he said Cell was using cheap "ta rikus" then what's to stop him from saying the same to everyone else about the Vegita/Nappa? Didn't he say they (meaning any strong warrior) used like bombs and stuff? Anyways, I always like Satan because A) The Japanese incarnation of his character is very funny to me (especially during the otherwise humor abscent Buu Saga) and B) He was in some ways a good illustration how strong the Z Senshi had become--Trunks' punch, 18's not feeling his punch, and earlier Cell batting him into the mountain.
And to me, the Cell Saga ended the whole story with less loose ends than the Furiza Saga, as well as having a less obvious twist (Gohan becoming the strongest, Goku staying dead).
But...you just gave your opinion, which was quite good anyways. I just felt like responding to it. And welcome to the board.
To be fair to the anime as well, I don't think they got too much footage of the Nappa/Vegita encounter, did they?
It seemed like everytime they showed up, Nappa killed them all off.
Plus, the announcer of the Tenkaichi Budokai as well the King of Earth (at least I think), and even the Cell Games announcer were all very suspicious of Mr. Satan's credibility. (I may be wrong on a few of those, but I'm quite certain that SOMEWHERE (it may an obscure source) that is mentioned or made apparent.)
Plus, didn't you hear Mr. Satan?! It was all done by tricks. If he said Cell was using cheap "ta rikus" then what's to stop him from saying the same to everyone else about the Vegita/Nappa? Didn't he say they (meaning any strong warrior) used like bombs and stuff? Anyways, I always like Satan because A) The Japanese incarnation of his character is very funny to me (especially during the otherwise humor abscent Buu Saga) and B) He was in some ways a good illustration how strong the Z Senshi had become--Trunks' punch, 18's not feeling his punch, and earlier Cell batting him into the mountain.
And to me, the Cell Saga ended the whole story with less loose ends than the Furiza Saga, as well as having a less obvious twist (Gohan becoming the strongest, Goku staying dead).
But...you just gave your opinion, which was quite good anyways. I just felt like responding to it. And welcome to the board.
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Jerseymilk
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At first, I found Mr. Satan kind of irritating when he first appeared at the Cell Games, and then for some reason after Cell knifehanded him, it sort of took care of all the resentment I had towards him. Then when a terrified Satan tossed #16's head towards Gohan, I had decided he was very funny. By the time of the Buu saga, I had affection for the stupid idiot and let me tell you, when Satan hauled off on that bastard psycho who shot Fat Buu's puppy for fun, I was cheering him on. 
At that point for me, he felt like he really was the world's champion, just for a minute. 
At that point for me, he felt like he really was the world's champion, just for a minute. -
SonGohan-san
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Yeah, that ep is on CN tomorrow. I'll probably check it out before the DB ep that I'm mainly tuning in for. My friends and I all loved the guy and thought it was so odd that so many others just couldn't see the use/humor in his character (even if it is the english version, which significantly less funny). He's great. Of course he's weak. That's the point. But another thing people fail to remember, it seems, was that the guy is extremely strong for a human. In the course of saying how weak he is compared to the Z warriors people seem to get so wound up that they forget he's any kind of badass at all. And the idea of Videl being stronger than him irked me, somewhat. I'm not sexist. I thought it was cool she could fly. It just didn't seem plausible for her to get so strong, even if Gohan was tutoring her.
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Jerseymilk
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Yeah, I always try to remember that too. If you discount Kuririn, Tenshinhan, and Yamucha, Satan's a pretty strong guy. It's not like he doesn't have any skill, as evidenced when he's dealing with that gun-toting nimrod or in the flashback to his fight with Supopovitchi, it just that up against Goku and the others, he looks like an ant. Plus, I love the way his Japanese voice constantly does that blubbering whimper when he's panicking. And who can't love the part where he tries all kinds of rigged objects, like the bomb in the video game to defeat Buu. You have to give the man points for trying. And then to cap it off, he tricks Buu into lying facedown to take a picture so he can make it look like he defeated him. 
You almost have to feel sorry for Buu's naivety. Now, if only he would stop doing those stupid poses. 
You almost have to feel sorry for Buu's naivety. Now, if only he would stop doing those stupid poses. -
SonGohan-san
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I loved the part where the his towel slipped after he got out of the shower and all those camera men started snapping pictures frantically.
But about what you said related to his whimpering, my friend said that he sounds like "a damned horse", which I thought was funny. While I guess its not really true, it sounds as if it should be true.
But about what you said related to his whimpering, my friend said that he sounds like "a damned horse", which I thought was funny. While I guess its not really true, it sounds as if it should be true.
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Jerseymilk
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Jerseymilk
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Another bit I would've liked to see just popped into my head. It was at the tip of my mind last time I posted. I've always wished that they had written a little part, an episode perhaps, about Vegeta dealing with the memories of his evil past. During the Cell saga he obviously felt no guilt, but later... after he had come to a full circle... Unlike Piccolo, whose deeds paled by comparison, Vegeta spent most of his life immersed in the slaughtering of billions upon billions of people. Surely that sort of thing would pop into his head every now and then, as well as his dreams. Him looking at his children and remembering the children that he killed. Him looking at Bulma and remembering the countless women just like her that he killed. Him watching the people of earth go about their daily lives and remembering just how many lives he permanently shattered. The things that had once amused him, now sickening to think about. They could've done a little introspective episode of him after Kid Buu's defeat, starting with the pain of his past and ending with him pondering the future's possibilities. A fresh start on life, perhaps, with a new purpose and new goals.
But then again, there is the fact that Mr. Satan dodged an attack from Kid Buu at a nearly point-blank range... I'd say that'd put him about on par with Goku in terms of speed...
The announcer at the Budoukai didn't believe Satan at all, but that was because he knew Goku's lot already, knew what they were capable of. As far as I remember, he leaned in towards Goku and commented that he knew that they were the ones that beat Cell. Goku simply smiled in return. ^_^
And make more money, and more money, and more money... He wasn't forced to continue, he was bribed. $_$SonGohan-san wrote:I'm sure Akira Toriyama would have had a more sensible premise had he not been FORCED to continue and continue and...
She didn't get strong because of Gohan, she got strong because she had trained herself long before she even met Gohan. Gohan judged her as being stronger than her father before he started teaching her to fly.SonGohan-san wrote:And the idea of Videl being stronger than him irked me, somewhat. I'm not sexist. I thought it was cool she could fly. It just didn't seem plausible for her to get so strong, even if Gohan was tutoring her.
But then again, there is the fact that Mr. Satan dodged an attack from Kid Buu at a nearly point-blank range... I'd say that'd put him about on par with Goku in terms of speed...
Actually, they got a lot of footage. They got some footage of the fights, and close ups of the warriors involved, as well as their corpses.SonGohan-san wrote:To be fair to the anime as well, I don't think they got too much footage of the Nappa/Vegita encounter, did they?
It seemed like everytime they showed up, Nappa killed them all off.
Plus, the announcer of the Tenkaichi Budokai as well the King of Earth (at least I think), and even the Cell Games announcer were all very suspicious of Mr. Satan's credibility. (I may be wrong on a few of those, but I'm quite certain that SOMEWHERE (it may an obscure source) that is mentioned or made apparent.)
The announcer at the Budoukai didn't believe Satan at all, but that was because he knew Goku's lot already, knew what they were capable of. As far as I remember, he leaned in towards Goku and commented that he knew that they were the ones that beat Cell. Goku simply smiled in return. ^_^
Those poses are classic! To get rid of those would be a crime! Like... getting rid of Goku's love of food! Like getting rid of Vegeta's pride! Like getting rid of Chichi's neurotic tendencies! Like getting rid of... of... Piccolo's monotone monologues!Jerseymilk wrote:Now, if only he would stop doing those stupid poses.