Non-"Rock the Dragon" English Opening

Innagadadavida · Post by **Innagadadavida** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:07 pm

I don't think Toriyama would be honest about it anyway. And if he were, he would probably not care at all.

Somebody once said that Oda made some positive remarks about the FUNimation One Piece dub. That hasn't affected my judgment. I don't like the dub any more or less. If Toriyama were to claim that the FUNimation dub is utter shit or otherwise, it wouldn't effect my opinion either. It is always interesting to hear the thoughts from people we respect on things that we enjoy. Whether or not one lets that effect their opinion of the thing, well that's a matter of character I guess.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:25 pm

I mainly said it in response to people who claim that the dub "isn't what he intended DBZ to be" or as someone on the Funi forum said a while ago, "If Akira Toriyama saw the DBZ dub, he'd have a heart attack."

GizmoKSX · Post by **GizmoKSX** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:24 pm

nathantheguitarist wrote: Alrighty. Now, I'm going to assume that you guys know a thing or three about music. Otherwise, why would you say things like "no-effort guitar riff" or "mindless wailing away" if you had no clue about what goes into that stuff, right? Right?
...
Now I'm not sure how long you guys think it took Bruce Faulconer or Scott Morgan (or any of the other DB composers who's names slip my mind easily) to land a job in the semi-professional music biz of TV show themes and scores, but certainly not long if you think it their job was easy enough to just "mindlessly wail" and put "no effort" into making any of the theme's for the dub.

From a guitarist's perspective (well, mine, anyway), the orange brick theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=curH235jZO8) is clearly inspired by the shred guitar movement. It sounds like someone was just listening to Joe Satriani, Steve Morse, or Paul Gilbert. (From a technical perspective, the orange brick theme is nowhere near their levels, but in terms of arrangement and tone, that's probably where it came from.)

As far as criticizing Faulconer and his ilk, I agree that he takes too much flak. Yes, it's a replacement score, unnecessary in the first place, and that in and of itself pisses people off. For others, it's just bad music to their ears, and that's a perfectly fine opinion as well. But saying that it takes no effort or talent is off-base. To his credit, he composed a hefty amount of original music that was often composed to match specific shots in the animation. (This often led to "Mickey Mousing" the action, in the way that old cartoon scores were synchronized with the animation. See Goku's battle with #19, where even the characters' jumps are given music cues. Whether or not this is excessive is up to you.) The original Japanese score recycles themes throughout the series. Several iconic moments in the series are given the exact same music track as others. Faulconer went out of his way to craft leitmotifs for various characters and scenarios. (That's not to say that Kikuchi didn't; his leitmotif for Piccolo comes to mind.) Even if you're not fond of Faulconer's synth/faux-guitar piece used for Goku's Super Saiyan transformation, he did at least compose it specifically for that scene.

And at least when Faulconer came on board, they stopped recycling Shuki Levy material from Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers.

OutlawTorn · Post by **OutlawTorn** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:30 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Dub fans don't need my approval or this community's approval in order to like FUNimation's production. What the problem seems to be is that they constantly seem as if they *are* yearning for that approval.

I'm not so sure that's it. While I will like whichever version I like regardless of what anybody else thinks, I have seen things sway on both sides of the fence. While dub fans may appear to be trying to achieve validation of the dub, sub fans appear to degrade dub fans for liking the dub, almost as if they are implying they are not real fans of Dragon Ball unless they prefer the original Japanese version and worship the Japanese performers.

Of course, it doesn't just happen with Dragon Ball and on Dragon Ball forums, but as that is the topic at hand, it's what I'm focusing my thoughts on.

But I can help feeling that the whole thing about what sub fans would think Toriyama praised the dub reminds me of something I see on Star Trek related forums all too often these days. Specifically the William Shatner/JJ Abrams issue. People would call Shatner bitter over not having been in the new movie whereas after Shatner called it wonderful, people jump on those comments and say he's just jockeying for a role in the sequel and just saying positive things because he doesn't want to offend Abrams or Nimoy. If Toriyama were to make such a statement about the dub, you would find some people who would simply respect his statement and go about as usual, whereas you would have others griping about how Toriyama has "sold out" or other rhetoric because his view didn't match their own. The more militant dubbie would probably point to the comment and try to rub it in subbies' faces, but you'll get idiots like that in any grouping.

Just so I'm not completely off topic, I have to say the theme which was posted at the beginning of this thread assaulted me when YTV picked DBZ up again leading into the third season and I was, for all intents and purposes, horrified. All previous airings had exclusively used "Rock the Dragon" as had the airing of the first 13 episodes on Teletoon, then we were subjected to that crap for years. The theme used on the season sets is definitely far superior but it is still nothing compared to the proper themes.

I think one of the reasons openings are/were changed (not sure if some dubs still change stuff like that) is because of the differences in lengths opening sequences general have in North America. While the Blue Water dub of GT (regardless of how you feel about GT) used an inaccurately dubbed version of Dan Dan, it was truncated by roughly a third of its length, if I recall correctly. Considering the time would have had to have been excised from the episodes themselves if the opening was kept as is, I think it was a fair compromise.

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:30 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:Talk about missing the point entirely.

What is "the point" exactly?, what part of the conversation am I supposed to be addressing to the exclusion of all other sub topics?. Or am I supposed to take a page from your book and try to bolster a weak argument with by making as many trite, inane statements as I can in a short period of time?.

If anyone's missing the point, it's you Mr. "Please validate my opinion, I need it so badly"..guy.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:48 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:Talk about missing the point entirely.
What is "the point" exactly?, what part of the conversation am I supposed to be addressing to the exclusion of all other sub topics?. Or am I supposed to take a page from your book and try to bolster a weak argument with by making as many trite, inane statements as I can in a short period of time?.

If anyone's missing the point, it's you Mr. "Please validate my opinion, I need it so badly"..guy.

You and other people were saying that no effort was put into the songs and can easily be replicated, and he showed that they couldn't be, but you took it as "Well YOU couldn't do better so your opinion is invalidated"

And I'm not even going to respond to the rest of the crap in your post because it's not even worth it. Completely unnecessary and uncalled for.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:52 pm

Please don't make me have to lock another dub-related thread, guys.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:23 pm

You know what? I think I'm going to stay away from the Daizex boards fgor a while. Well, just this board at least. I can't even have a civil discussion and feel that most people here don't like me, and there are some people here who I just flat-out dislike, so I'm just gonna stay the hell away for a while.

Dr. Casey · Post by **Dr. Casey** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:44 pm

Foolishness. Nobody dislikes you, jjgp. Stop this nonsense at once, and return to posting once more.

IncompetentOverlord · Post by **IncompetentOverlord** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:32 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:Foolishness. Nobody dislikes you, jjgp. Stop this nonsense at once, and return to posting once more.

Seconded. In my opinion, this board is incredibly subbie dominated, and we need a few dubbies to keep the balance and put things in a dub fan's perspective once in a while.

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:37 pm

OutlawTorn wrote:I think one of the reasons openings are/were changed (not sure if some dubs still change stuff like that) is because of the differences in lengths opening sequences general have in North America. While the Blue Water dub of GT (regardless of how you feel about GT) used an inaccurately dubbed version of Dan Dan, it was truncated by roughly a third of its length, if I recall correctly. Considering the time would have had to have been excised from the episodes themselves if the opening was kept as is, I think it was a fair compromise.

You have a good point. Noticed most anime openings tend to be about a minute and a half long, whereas American shows animated or not, tend to have their openings about a minute long.

Another reason is while it doesn't really apply to DBZ, sometimes the original Japanese theme can be really incredibly lame, as I just discovered after seeing the first Japanese Pokemon intro for the first time. Compare the original Japanese to the first English theme. Don't know if it's bias from being so used to the latter, but I just don't like the Japanese theme.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:48 pm

Never heard it before, but the first JP Pokemon opening had some strong points. Probably suits the JP version of the Anime pretty well (just guessing on that one since I've only had exposure to the Dub, and not much more then 10 or so episodes).

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:20 pm

Super Sonic wrote:
OutlawTorn wrote:I think one of the reasons openings are/were changed (not sure if some dubs still change stuff like that) is because of the differences in lengths opening sequences general have in North America. While the Blue Water dub of GT (regardless of how you feel about GT) used an inaccurately dubbed version of Dan Dan, it was truncated by roughly a third of its length, if I recall correctly. Considering the time would have had to have been excised from the episodes themselves if the opening was kept as is, I think it was a fair compromise.
You have a good point. Noticed most anime openings tend to be about a minute and a half long, whereas American shows animated or not, tend to have their openings about a minute long.

Another reason is while it doesn't really apply to DBZ, sometimes the original Japanese theme can be really incredibly lame, as I just discovered after seeing the first Japanese Pokemon intro for the first time. Compare the original Japanese to the first English theme. Don't know if it's bias from being so used to the latter, but I just don't like the Japanese theme.

POKEMON, GETTO DAZE!

I disagree, I think the original Japanese opening for Pokemon is a much better song. I often find myself humming it, even to this day.

It's most of the other OPs for the show I didn't quite enjoy. Maybe "Rival!".

But the point is not which is better to me, the point is that "Cha La Head Cha La" was the intended opening of the show. It wouldn't matter to me how much better the replacement music is, it's disrespectful for the licensor to replace it.

Funimation isn't an animation studio, they're a licensor. They should present the show as much as-is as they can, even with a dub, and let the fans decide whether the soundtrack is good or not. I'm not interested in Funimation's opinion. They're just the middle man.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:23 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:You know what? I think I'm going to stay away from the Daizex boards fgor a while. Well, just this board at least. I can't even have a civil discussion and feel that most people here don't like me, and there are some people here who I just flat-out dislike, so I'm just gonna stay the hell away for a while.

And on that (completely honestly coincidental) note, I'm back! By the way, I always thought that the not-so-rocking "Rock the Dragon" that was used in the latter Oceaqn dub sucked hardcore.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:07 pm

At least despite some dubbing and cultural issues, Pokemon still retains the same underlying tone between versions. Both the English and Japanese versions of the original themes evoke that same sense of "awesome adventure with my Pokemon partners!"

Post by **VegettoEX** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:19 am

jjgp1112 wrote:You know what? I think I'm going to stay away from the Daizex boards fgor a while. Well, just this board at least. I can't even have a civil discussion and feel that most people here don't like me, and there are some people here who I just flat-out dislike, so I'm just gonna stay the hell away for a while.

Why even make these kinds of posts? If it's so thoroughly disgusting to you to the point where you feel like you can't have a conversation (which is totally up to you on an individual level, by the way, and hardly this "the world against me" nonsense, which is against the rules)... then why butt in with a "Give me the last word!"...? Move on. Move away. Let it be. Don't be childish about this. You're the one creating situations for yourself where you feel like you can't have a conversation. This is why you have been publicly and privately warned, and this will be the last one.

IncompetentOverlord wrote:In my opinion, this board is incredibly subbie dominated, and we need a few dubbies to keep the balance and put things in a dub fan's perspective once in a while

The entire point of Daizenshuu EX is that we *don't* focus on anything other than the original Japanese version, so that makes sense. That's our purpose. That's why we're here. That's what we like, and that's what we created our community to focus around. You recognized this when you visited the site, you recognized this when you read the forum rules, and you recognize this each and every day when you decide to post here.

On the flip side, I'd argue that such a sentiment isn't even accurate. Near as I can tell, the vast majority of English-speaking fans on this forum these days are *not* exclusively fans of the original Japanese version. They're the vocal majority, clinging to this nonsensical ideology that they need to promote themselves as an oppressed minority.

Us old folks with our canes and Kikuchi soundtracks are the vocal minority online these days in the English speaking fandom world.

Super Sonic wrote:Don't know if it's bias from being so used to the latter, but I just don't like the Japanese theme.

I think it's your biased familiarity with the American dub opening(s). While I'm not hugely into the community and can only make vague observations, "Mezase Pokemon" (the first JP opening) remains hugely popular to this day with tons of remixes and covers. It's incredible identified with the series. It's catchy. It's fun. It's awesome. If it wasn't actually good, it wouldn't have stuck around to such a huge degree.

Therefore, "CHA-LA HEAD-CHA-LA" is awesome.

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:28 am

I think "I Wanna Be The Very Best"/"Pokemon US Theme" had a few versions, too, if I recall my Pokemon anime fandom days correctly.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:29 am

penguintruth wrote:I think "I Wanna Be The Very Best"/"Pokemon US Theme" had a few versions, too, if I recall my Pokemon anime fandom days correctly.

As I recall, at one point in the series when Mezase had a remix/cover for the theme, the dub (still done by 4Kids at the time, I think) likewise produced a new cover of the original English theme.

Pokémon is one of those series where, IMO, a certain amount of localization in a dub really doesn't hurt it. Just about every region and language in the world has their own names for the monsters themselves and such, after all.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:34 am

penguintruth wrote:I think "I Wanna Be The Very Best"/"Pokemon US Theme" had a few versions, too, if I recall my Pokemon anime fandom days correctly.

It sure does, and I'm not saying anything positive or negative about the American song. There's neither here nor there with relation to the question of whether or not the original Japanese song is or is not good and has any kind of significance or importance.

Of course, that also has little to do with DBZ, so I'll conclude once more with:

Therefore, "CHA-LA HEAD-CHA-LA" is awesome.

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:03 am

Yeah, "CHA-LA HEAD-CHA-LA" is pretty awesome Mr. EX. Didn't like it at first, but grew on me. And you're probably right about bias with Pokemon. Was just using to compare. Almost described TF: Galaxy Force's Japanese and English openings for comparisons, but that would've been definate bias. 80s boy who watched the original so, would tend more towards theme with classic line, "Transformers, more than meets the eye."