Your rewrite of the Dragon Ball manga

[Piccolo Daimao]

What exactly could Chiaotzu do?

Something other than be of no use in the Nappa battle. Granted, you could say he was of no use anyway, but if he had at least done something rather than toss him out like that...
That said, I really don't know what else he could've done.

Eh, I think it would've weakened the Freeza Saga to just offhandedly mention "o btw my daddy's just as much of a badass". That's the kind of thing to do at the beginning of a story to set up the TRUE bad guy.

I just find it strange to have King Cold turn up being an intergalactic ruler, yet no-one makes mention of him being this powerful in the galaxy. Everyone talks about Freeza, but no-one ever talks about his father. Though I see your point, it probably would've weakened the Freeza Arc.

Base Gohan outlasting Super Saiyan Vegeta? No.

What I meant was that the Artificial Humans would be attacking all the others and Gohan just happens to be the last one standing. That's not to necessarily say Gohan has more endurance than Super Saiyan Vegeta in battle, just like one of those things. Like, how Trunks explains how all the Z-Fighters were killed by the Artificial Humans and Gohan escaped "barely".

The only way I would support this is if Gohan isn't such a titanic pussy for the entire story previous.

I prefer, however, Piccolo and Vegeta as the world heroes after Goku's death.

Vegeta couldn't be a world hero because he doesn't give two shits about the people of Earth. Piccolo would be a good choice, but Goku intended to have Gohan take over his role after he died. Like that whole "new generation" idea he was on about to Piccolo in the Boo Arc.

[Sedorna]

I just find it strange to have King Cold turn up being an intergalactic ruler, yet no-one makes mention of him being this powerful in the galaxy. Everyone talks about Freeza, but no-one ever talks about his father. Though I see your point, it probably would've weakened the Freeza Arc.

I think that has a lot to do with their personalities. Freeza seems to be the kind of person that revels in others' fear of him, that he, personally is the best. King Cold, however, is a much more laid-back kinda guy. It doesn't matter to him who's the strongest, just so long as it's a member of his clan. (Heck, he was going to adopt Trunks just so that would continue.) So, while Freeza's making sure everybody knows *exactly* who he is, Cold's just sittin' back and chillin'. (Get it? Cold? Chillin'? Ha ha ha ha ha ha!)

[rereboy]

I just find it strange to have King Cold turn up being an intergalactic ruler, yet no-one makes mention of him being this powerful in the galaxy. Everyone talks about Freeza, but no-one ever talks about his father. Though I see your point, it probably would've weakened the Freeza Arc.

I think that has a lot to do with their personalities. Freeza seems to be the kind of person that revels in others' fear of him, that he, personally is the best. King Cold, however, is a much more laid-back kinda guy. It doesn't matter to him who's the strongest, just so long as it's a member of his clan. (Heck, he was going to adopt Trunks just so that would continue.) So, while Freeza's making sure everybody knows *exactly* who he is, Cold's just sittin' back and chillin'. (Get it? Cold? Chillin'? Ha ha ha ha ha ha!)

Its obvious (to me) that Freeza was stronger than his father. Therefore he was the strongest in the universe (but they rule together because they are family).

King Cold didn`t even try to fight Trunks in a regular fight because if Freeza couldn`t do it, he wouldn`t be able to do it.

Instead he tried to make Trunks join his side and when that didn`t work he tried to remove one of Trunks` advantages (his sword) and turn it against Trunks. In his mind, Trunks was only able to beat Freeza so easily because he had that advantage, so if he turned that advantage against Trunks, he might be able to kill him.

But, unfortunately for King Cold, Trunks was stronger than he imagined and the sword didn`t make any difference.

[caejones]

King Cold reminds me of that "noble hunter" type, the guys that are super wealthy and just wind up living alone in their estate on the edge of the jungle and spend their days trying to find the most clever creature to outsmart until it becomes a shipwrecked human (because all the other animals have gotten boring at this point).
So yeah. Cold the Hunter.


As for Chaozu... he served more as a plot-device than anything in the 22nd tournament (rigged the tournament, brought up Tao Paipai, interfered with T'en's fight with Goku...). He's always been there to push the other characters... I kinda think his death in the Saiyan arc was partly because Toriyama didn't know how to fit him into what he was going for, and also as a motivating factor to kill off T'en.

What could Chaozu have done besides that?
I... umm... I dunno... telekinetically steal Vegeta's scouter?
Nah, I got nothin'.
I think he and T'en working together by telepathically sharing information (Solo-kids in Vector Prime-style) could be an interesting tactic, but there again... useless.

[Olympian]

Personally, i would tone down the whole Super Warriors from another planet plot angle, and focus more on the characters that we already knew and grew to care about. I dont mind the constant power ups, but some of the things that the author came with, not only feel borrowed, it feels boring.

I would surely never make two kids, who barely trained (well, at least one of them), turn SS on the go, and be better fighters than the older characters.

I would cut some parts of the bigger atory arcs, like Freeza and Cell. I would give actual and fitting endings to the side story characters, instead of just forgetting them in the woods (oh, Lunch, where are thou?).

I would increase the abilities and power of the Humans, without necessarily make them as good as the Warriors from outer Space. In my kind is simply a matter on writting unique abilities, that others would not easily replicate. It was always hinted that Humans, had the most inate and original control of chi (at least, seemed to me that way, the Humans look to have the most original moves, and vegeta could not control chi reading).

In short, make the Humans have better chi control and the most creative moveset. Goku and Piccolo would be out of the norm examples, since having been trained and grow up on Earth, they would have the same mentality.

[Olympian]

The humans have never had 'real fights' ever outside of a tournament where they're protected by rules.

Rocketman, the heel of the Daizenshuu board, has spoken.

Now, if only that particular assertion was really true..

Methinks if Rocketman put as much effort into coming up with his own ideas as he did looking for flaws in other people's, this would be a fun thread.

What major flaws, tho?

Was it really impossible for Toryama, to come up with a useful set of abilities for the characters that were left behind? How, when the limit to a writer`s criativity is its own mind?

[Rocketman]

The humans have never had 'real fights' ever outside of a tournament where they're protected by rules.

Rocketman, the heel of the Daizenshuu board.

Now, if only that was true.

Name as many as you can.

[Olympian]

Name as many as you can.

"Real fights", we understand as battles, where life was at stake, i gather? Humans against Nappa? Krillin against "Goku" and Freeza? Everyone against the Cell juniors?

That is what? Three of the four major arcs?

The only way someone would not count these sort of examples, would be if they only talked about battles where the named characters won, wich is not really what its about.

[FuniYamcha]

Name as many as you can.

"Real fights", we understand as battles, where life was at stake, i gather? Humans against Nappa? Krillin against "Goku" and Freeza? Everyone against the Cell juniors?

That is what? Three of the four major arcs?

The only way someone would not count these sort of examples, would be if they only talked about battles where the named characters won, wich is not really what its about.

I think "real fights" referred to fights where they actually have a legitimate chance to win, and not just take up time until a real fighter can show up and save them. Rocketman's pointing out that the humans seemingly never had an important fight where you'd legitimately think they would win.

The saibamen are the only thing I can think of, but that was pretty irrelevant seeing as there were two Saiyans standing there too.

[Godo]

The humans are simply gunfodder after Dragonball.
Hell, many times they are the same during Dragonball too.

[Rocketman]

"Real fights", we understand as battles, where life was at stake, i gather?

It was said better than I was phrasing it, so here:

I think "real fights" referred to fights where they actually have a legitimate chance to win, and not just take up time until a real fighter can show up and save them.

Except I also count where one character is uncontestedly weaker than the other, but is skilled enough or strong enough to make it a hard victory for the opponent as a 'real fight'. For example, Krillin vs Piccolo in the 23rd Budokai or Vegeta's fights with Recoome, #18 and Fat Buu.


The humans never get either of these outside of a tournament. Outside of the Budokais:

-Yamcha loses every round vs Goku.
-Krillin loses to Goku when they scuffle during Roshi's first day of training.
-The humans vanish after the tournament ends, until Krillin gets wrecked by General Blue before he uses telekinesis, then Goku hops in and beats Blue around.
-Roshi, Yamcha and Krillin decide to help Goku fight the Red Ribbon. Goku annihilates the whole army before they even get there.
-At Baba's tournament (though it is a tournament, the rules are different enough I'm including it), Krillin gets the stuffing kicked out of him and is eliminated without ever throwing a punch.
-Yamcha gets torn up by the Mummy, then Goku hops in and takes him out with one punch.
-Krillin killed easily by Tambourine.
-Chiaotzu killed in one shot by King Piccolo.
-Tien crushed by three hits from Drum, Goku hops in and explodes Drum's head.
--Piccolo Jr. wastes a whole lot of energy nuking the Budokai island then gets beat down by Goku. The humans attempt to jump in to help Goku, but Piccolo waves his hand and blows them all back.
-The battle with the Saibamen allllmost makes them worth something, but then Yamcha dies in one attack and Krillin decides to cut this bit short and go right to the part where they get fucked up.
-Chiaotzu's psychic powers fail, Tien loses an arm in one hit, Chiaotzu's explosion and Tien's final Kikoho muss up Nappa's hair and nothing else; Krillin is taken out by an energy blast that doesn't even hit him and then Goku shows up to show up everybody.
-One kick from Vegeta wrecks Krillin, a kick and a punch from a much weaker Vegeta does it for Yajirobe.
-Krillin fails at fighting Gurd until Vegeta hops in a decapitates him.
-Krillin wrecked vs Recoome.
-Krillin survives fighting Ginyu-Goku only because Vegeta prevents Jheese from joining in.
-Krillin is speared through the gut, then later blown up by Freeza gesturing.
-Yamcha speared through the gut by #20.
-Tien knocked out in one hit from #17.
-Tien scuffs Imperfect Cell a bit.
-Krillin helps Cell become complete, then gets kicked once and goes down.
-Everybody weaker than Piccolo is absolutely destroyed by the Cell Juniors. And because they showed up, there's not enough Senzu beans left to heal Gohan when Cell regenerates.
-And then none of them do anything of note in the Buu Saga other than "WARGH SO MUCH POWAH". Oh, Tien saves Hercule and Dende from dying, but that just means Goku doesn't have time to rescue Mystic Gohan before the Earth blows up.


The only reason people think the humans got shafted in Z is because Z didn't have the Budokais, which are all about flashy moves, showmanship and giving a good fight for the crowd.

[Commander_Red]

Why you almost make it sound like the entire story is written so Goku can be the hero!

[Kid Buu]

My changes:

Yamcha defeats the Saibaman and is also a victim of Nappa.

Vegeta defeats Burter before he fights Recoome.

Too many Freeza forms, I would get rid of his 3rd form.

I will have to think of some more later.

[IncredibleGuy]

The only reason people think the humans got shafted in Z is because Z didn't have the Budokais, which are all about flashy moves, showmanship and giving a good fight for the crowd.

That, or they're not actually familiar with the original Dragon Ball. In original Dragon Ball the overall theme was "watch Goku get way stronger than everyone else". Only Vegeta managed match strength with Goku over the years. The strength of the half-saiyans, on the other hand, was kind of all over the place.

[coola]

Give Gohan higher power power level when he attack Radditz,he was only 107 BP stronger,yet only one attack was enough,to make Radditz lost so much energy,that even Goku,in his "Mr.Broken Ribs Form" had no trouble to hold him

[Satan-Sama]

A lot of people were upset when Tien and Chaozu disappeared after the Cell Saga, they should have been more involved with the story some how. I realize there is no way they would have been able to fight Majin Buu along side the Saiyans, so there should have been some sort of Tien & Chaozu Brokeback Mountain sort of side story.

[Piccolo Daimao]

A lot of people were upset when Tenshinhan and Chaozu disappeared after the Cell Saga, they should have been more involved with the story some how. I realize there is no way they would have been able to fight Majin Buu along side the Saiyans, so there should have been some sort of Tenshinhan & Chaozu Brokeback Mountain sort of side story.

Lol.
Haven't they already done that (albeit, to a lesser extent)? Chaozu's sacrifice for Tenshinhan, Tenshinhan saying "We'll never be apart," and all?

Anyway, even if they did do that, I don't know how they could fit that in to what was going on at the time. Z-Fighters battling an unimaginably powerful djinn, then cutting randomly to Tenshinhan & Chaozu doing...nah, I don't wanna say. Toriyama doesn't really do that stuff, does he? Just look at Vegeta & Bulma, and Goku & Chi-Chi. And I can't imagine Toriyama thinking of Tenshinhan & Chaozu's bond being anything other than a strong friendship.

[Olympian]

It was said better than I was phrasing it, i think "real fights" referred to fights where they actually have a legitimate chance to win, and not just take up time until a real fighter can show up and save them.

Ah, if you go with that logic, i cannot disagree much. The plot of the Manga surely makes the Humans take the most shaft brunt under all the characters.

Some of the loses are actually too much plot driven, but some i just disagree:

Yamcha loses every round vs Goku.

Uh, when? If anything, plot is on Goku`s side here. Yamcha looks the better in the first round, they stalemate to an inconclusive match in the second, and Goku gets to look better in the third. The one reason people do not consider Yamcha looking better in the first round, is because Goku says he is hungry, which i always found suspicious because not only it was right before the move that knocked him back (and potentially out in seconds), hit him, but he actually remarks at Bulma and Oolong how weak sauce they are for...felling hungry/thirsty, mere panels before.

Krillin loses to Goku when they scuffle during Roshi's first day of training.

Understandable, Goku had training from his grandfather already. Krillin had simply basic human level training.

Yamcha gets torn up by the Mummy, then Goku hops in and takes him out with one punch.

Yeah, but he looked much better than Krillin, without any Turtle training :p

Krillin killed easily by Tambourine.

Sneak attack from someone who beat up Goku, head-on, senseless in that arc.

Chiaotzu killed in one shot by King Piccolo.

Was not using any powers to defend himself, whether you believe that would have saved him from that one attack and simply delay the impossible, or not. That Piccolo, despite of old, also beats Goku senseless.

The battle with the Saibamen allllmost makes them worth something, but then Yamcha dies in one attack and Krillin decides to cut this bit short and go right to the part where they get fucked up.

Yamcha not only won, but proved he was more powerful than the Saibamen. However that does not mean that the greenies do not had the power to blow up one of them, using it at maximum measure. Even Tenshinhan had to dodge the acid attack, and had some luck, when vegeta blow up the Saibamen he was fighting. Potentially, that is.

The only one at the time, with a sneak suicide bombist on his legs, that likely would not die anyway, would be Piccolo, and Goku, obviously.

Chiaotzu's psychic powers fail, Tenshinhan loses an arm in one hit, Chiaotzu's explosion and Tenshinhan's final Kikoho muss up Nappa's hair and nothing else; Krillin is taken out by an energy blast that doesn't even hit him and then Goku shows up to show up everybody.

To be fair to Tenshinhan, Nappa did said the kikoho put the fear on him. And he was greatly injured.

One kick from Vegeta wrecks Krillin, a kick and a punch from a much weaker Vegeta does it for Yajirobe.

Yajirobe is just weaker than everyone else.

Yamcha speared through the gut by #20.

Did not knew who they were, and had his enery drained. Piccolo later falls on the same trick, while knowing what Yamcha did not.

Yamcha looks better in this situation, where i stand.

Tenshinhan scuffs Imperfect Cell a bit.

Which is not bad..

Krillin helps Cell become complete, then gets kicked once and goes down.

[/quote]

Same as vegeta..

Everybody weaker than Piccolo is absolutely destroyed by the Cell Juniors. And because they showed up, there's not enough Senzu beans left to heal Gohan when Cell regenerates.

Even Piccolo and the rest were not doing anything of worth.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think a more fitting ending to the Cell Arc (and thus, Dragon Ball) could be us seeing this...

Son Gohan has fulfilled his father's role as protector of Earth & is proving them that he will protect the future by donning the Great Saiyaman identity and essentially becoming what would be Satan City's hero (and being pretty much the only Z-Warrior to properly be a superhero). The ending panel would be a shot of Son Gohan as the Great Saiyaman flying through the city amidst cheers of the citizens.
I think it's good because it shows that Gohan is actually doing his job and being more of a protector of Earth than his father, rather than the highly disappointing turn of events in the Majin Boo Saga (Gohan basically pussying out).

And I think Mr. Satan shouldn't have existed in the story. And no Majin Boo Saga.