"Supreme" Kai really was beyond useless

[FuniYamcha]

Kaioshin had no special powers? How about Elder Kaioshin's power unlocking ability? You might say he only has that because he fused with a witch; then what about the Potara themselves? And the ability to travel to any world. And the ability to sense what's going on back on Earth from the Kaioshin Realm. And like rereboy said, each was strong enough to take down Freeza, the strongest being to naturally exist in the universe before the Saiyans came along.

Things would have turned out the same if Kaioshin hadn't come along, or worse. Without Gohan, Goku and Vegeta, Babidi would have just collected energy more slowly, with no Kaioshin to interfere with him, and revived Buu with no opposition. He may not have been revived on Earth (they'd move around to collect more energy), but let's just say he was for the sake of argument. Goku wouldn't be around, because he only had one day on Earth and that would have been a while ago since they were collecting energy more slowly. So there would be no fusion dance for the heroes. No potara from the Kaioshin. No power unlocking.

...Yep, the universe would be pretty screwed.

First, I'm talking about the current kaioshin, not the elder one, as I feel he was actually useful. Potara? Know about that from the elder. What's the use of sensing what's happening on Earth when you fucked up and could have prevented things to begin with if you didn't suck? And you seem to miss the point that NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING, should be stronger than a bloody God of All Reality. If Goku was able to teleport better and had better senses, then he'd already be better than the current Kaioshin.

You seem to misunderstand me saying that the current kaioshin sucks much more than he should, with saying that all the kaioshin were completely worthless. But honestly, should a God of Gods be anything less than a perfect/near-perfect being? Forget raw power, you'd think the ultimate God would have the ability to snap his fingers and automatically destroy anyone and banish them to hell or something. But still, I'm just saying, if you restart the Buu Arc and put Elder Kaioshin in control from the beginning, it would have been far less entertaining since he knew what the hell he was doing.

[Rocketman]

He teleported himself, Dende, and Old Kaioshin to New Namek so they could summon Porunga, without whom Kid Boo would not have been vanquished.

Fuuuu-sion! HA!!!

[Bussani]

First, I'm talking about the current kaioshin, not the elder one, as I feel he was actually useful. Potara? Know about that from the elder. What's the use of sensing what's happening on Earth when you fucked up and could have prevented things to begin with if you didn't suck? And you seem to miss the point that NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING, should be stronger than a bloody God of All Reality. If Goku was able to teleport better and had better senses, then he'd already be better than the current Kaioshin.

You seem to misunderstand me saying that the current kaioshin sucks much more than he should, with saying that all the kaioshin were completely worthless. But honestly, should a God of Gods be anything less than a perfect/near-perfect being? Forget raw power, you'd think the ultimate God would have the ability to snap his fingers and automatically destroy anyone and banish them to hell or something. But still, I'm just saying, if you restart the Buu Arc and put Elder Kaioshin in control from the beginning, it would have been far less entertaining since he knew what the hell he was doing.

They're not creator gods, though. They're not immortal, there's no evidence that they created the universe or have that sort of power. They're more like many gods in eastern mythology, which might be why you're expecting them to be more than they are.

In eastern mythology, it really isn't that unusual for gods to be outclassed, have limits or even fall in battle.

[caejones]

First, I'm talking about the current kaioshin, not the elder one, as I feel he was actually useful. Potara? Know about that from the elder. What's the use of sensing what's happening on Earth when you fucked up and could have prevented things to begin with if you didn't suck? And you seem to miss the point that NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING, should be stronger than a bloody God of All Reality. If Goku was able to teleport better and had better senses, then he'd already be better than the current Kaioshin.

You seem to misunderstand me saying that the current kaioshin sucks much more than he should, with saying that all the kaioshin were completely worthless. But honestly, should a God of Gods be anything less than a perfect/near-perfect being? Forget raw power, you'd think the ultimate God would have the ability to snap his fingers and automatically destroy anyone and banish them to hell or something. But still, I'm just saying, if you restart the Buu Arc and put Elder Kaioshin in control from the beginning, it would have been far less entertaining since he knew what the hell he was doing.

They're not creator gods, though. They're not immortal, there's no evidence that they created the universe or have that sort of power. They're more like many gods in eastern mythology, which might be why you're expecting them to be more than they are.

In eastern mythology, it really isn't that unusual for gods to be outclassed, have limits or even fall in battle.

Which actually fits Dragonball very well, what with the original idea being based on Journey to the West, in which Son Wukong pretty well humiliated all of the gods until the Buddha put the smack-down on him.

[Scarz]

Every "God" character Dragonball SUCK at their jobs. They make our worldly gods look competent. I wonder who put these guys in charge? ( besides Toriyama)

I think the gods (King Kai, Supreme kai, etc) fell out of the sky and they all noticed how much stronger and magical they are compared to other mortals and declared themselves overseers of the universe.

[Bussani]

Which actually fits Dragonball very well, what with the original idea being based on Journey to the West, in which Son Wukong pretty well humiliated all of the gods until the Buddha put the smack-down on him.

I couldn't have put it better than that. Good example.

[Rocketman]

They're not creator gods, though. They're not immortal, there's no evidence that they created the universe or have that sort of power. They're more like many gods in eastern mythology, which might be why you're expecting them to be more than they are.

In eastern mythology, it really isn't that unusual for gods to be outclassed, have limits or even fall in battle.

Western mythology has a lot of the same qualities. Even mighty Zeus was once overthrown and held immobile by having his tendons ripped out, and Dionysus was torn apart by the Titans (he got better).

[Maphisto86]

It was ironic that a "god" was upstaged by lowly Saiyans. Still I don't think this was lost on Mr. Toriyama when he was writing the Buu saga. In a way the gods of Dragonball are simply another race, albeit stronger and older than the usual, not to mention from another dimension or plain of existence. Yet it is hinted at that even the kai's and the kaioshin where all created themselves in some way. Actually I thought the fat Dai Kaioshin was the "top diety" of the Dragonball Universe until the Makaioshin concept came about, which further expands the universal hierarchy.

So even though the so-called "Supreme" Kaioshin was pretty powerful, he was a few tiers below top dog. It is also a major theme of Dragonball that no matter who you are, with a enough hard work and perseverance, you can overcome adversity. Well . . . unless you're human. That aside, the gods in Dragonball from Kami all the way up are constanstly surprised by Goku and his kin.

P.S. Nice posts there Rocketman and Scarz. The infalliablity of the god's depicted in Dragonball really did remind me of stories like the Titans being overthrown by the Olympians in Greek mythology or the stories from Anicent India.

[Rocketman]

It is also a major theme of Dragonball that no matter who you are, with a enough hard work and perseverance, you can overcome adversity. Well . . . unless you're human.

Or Piccolo. Or Vegeta. Or Goku, since Gohan is his superior from sitting on his ass for a day.

[Kendamu]

I think the gods (King Kai, Supreme kai, etc) fell out of the sky and they all noticed how much stronger and magical they are compared to other mortals and declared themselves overseers of the universe.

To be more literal, they actually fell from a tree.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Kaioshin was a measuring stick.

Precisely. Kaioshin's there to make others look good. In particular the Saiyans and Majin Boo (and if you ask me, Piccolo too >_>).

I thought it was implied that Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo, at least.

[Piccolo Daimao]

He teleported himself, Dende, and Old Kaioshin to New Namek so they could summon Porunga, without whom Kid Boo would not have been vanquished.

There. Kaioshin's contribution.

Kibitoshin's contribution. The teleportation was Kibito's ability.

[Godo]

Kaioshin was a measuring stick.

Precisely. Kaioshin's there to make others look good. In particular the Saiyans and Majin Boo (and if you ask me, Piccolo too >_>).

I thought it was implied that Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo, at least.

At least it's good to know that Piccolo is the one that's strongest mentally. He is both smarter and more brave.
Hell, Piccolo would have made a great Kaioshin.

[DemonRin]

*looks at title of this thread*
Say it with me. Kai-o-shin. Kai-o-shin. Kaioshin.

And come to think of it, he WAS pretty useless... all he ever did was talk about killing Boo before he was revived, and once it finally happened, Kaioshin spent the rest of his time shitting himself until he went back to his home world. He really wasn't useful till he fused with Kibit, and then all he was good for was a quick teleporter...
Oh well, wasn't the first time Toriyama did something odd with the characters, I still haven't forgiven him for making... Everyone but the Saiyans useless eventually.

[Kaboom]

I thought it was implied that Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo, at least.

Screw that, Piccolo's not gonna be weaker than that pansy.

But in all seriousness, Piccolo claiming as such was probably a bluff, but was unfounded either way. Nobody could sense Kaioshin's Ki, and Piccolo was largely guessing simply due to Kaioshin's title and position. Which he still actually had wrong, because he thought he was Grand Kaio.

[mystic trunks]

I think Piccolo just didn't want to fight him because he thought/knew he was a Kai and thought it would be disrespectful.

[Savage68]

Piccolo literally said Kaioshin was much stronger than him. And it substantiates this in some guide.

[mystic trunks]

He teleported himself, Dende, and Old Kaioshin to New Namek so they could summon Porunga, without whom Kid Boo would not have been vanquished.

There. Kaioshin's contribution.

Kibitoshin's contribution. The teleportation was Kibito's ability.

HAHA! He couldn't even tell Vegito was stronger than Buu.

[Kendamu]

At least it's good to know that Piccolo is the one that's strongest mentally. He is both smarter and more brave.
Hell, Piccolo would have made a great Kaioshin.

If only he were born from the tree that Kaiou and Kaioushin are come from.

Really, though, the people who think that the Gods (at any level) are useless need to remember that the main characters in Dragonball are huge anomalies. It isn't like each generation has people who could kick the crap out of the Gods.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

Couldn't you have put this with the buu thread? I mean one troll bate topic is enough.