The lack of respect Dragonball and its fans get.

[laserkid]

HA! I read somewhere that creators of Japanese animation hated that term!

Who are these "creators" of Japanese Animation as a genre? I've never heard of them!

Seriously though, in Japan, the term "anime" refers to all animation across all regions, not just their own. I can't seem to find it right now, but I recall an image off Kotaku showing a Japanese store's "anime DVD" section, that had in order "Mickey Mouse's Once Upon a Christmas", "Fullmetal Alchemist", and "The Simpsons" all next to each other to prove that point.

Now here in the states anime has come to refer to Japanese Animation as a slang term, replacing the older Japanimation term. That's not necessarily BAD, however if you lose sight of the fact that, yes, anime is also a cartoon you're sort of missing the point. If you allow yourself to buy into the negative connotation of the term cartoon and insist anime isn't a cartoon, then you are assisting in the marginalization of animation in our culture. You might separate Japanese Animation in your head, but most "normal" (if you want to call them that) people do not. So, the more you bash cartoons and try to "separate anime" from them you in so doing prevent animation from being taken seriously in the west.

If you EVER want to see animation taken seriously, you need to stop denigrating whole segments of it to make yourself feel special, and instead use evidence across the spectrum to prove that, yes, cartoons can indeed be beautiful things. Culture can change - but only if you work towards it.

Look at comic books, even ten years ago liking them beyond the big huge mainstays (Superman, Batman, Spiderman) was considered silly and nerdy. Now one of the most well anticipated movies is a sequel to Iron Man. IRON MAN, who was never all that popular when I was growing up is now known, and loved, by my parents of all people, because the culture grew to further accept comic book heroes as legitimate. Animation can also garner this respect but only if we WORK for it, but it will NEVER come to pass if we try to segment it into “anime” and “cartoons”. Anime is slang for Japanese Cartoons, but the point is, it’s still a cartoon. If you can’t get over the fact that Dragon Ball, or any other “anime”, is a cartoon, then you may wish to reevaluate your self esteem level. Because, again, if we – the fans – can’t get it together with respecting the genre as a whole, then how can we expect anyone else to?

[Velasa]

I don't think there's anything too unreasonable about saying that, on the whole, a country that views animation as a legitimate medium (Relative to how the US views it, anyhow) puts out better work on average than a country that sees it almost exclusively as vapid nonsense that kids past the single digits would find it hard to enjoy.

Like he said. There's plenty of beautiful wonderful animation work here in the US, it's just marginilized and hidden under a blanket of fluff and tripe because it's the tripe that gets attention, gets greenlighted, gets funded and gets put out for consumption most of the time, in large part because the mainstream expects nothing more of animation. In Japan there's still plenty of crap in their animation industry, but at the same time they don't have the same stigmas that the medium is automatically silly fluff that's good for your three year old.

Personally, I find the way to fix this is to vote with your dollar- support quality animation and go see it, go buy it, pick up Fantastic Mr. Fox instead of that next Spongebob dvd. When it comes out obviously. And I could go on for a while about how utterly happy that movie made me, but this is a Dragonball board so I shan't.

A great deal of agreement with Laserkid as well, despite small disagreements on the whole (I'm not really sure if your typical tough guy who loved the sweet action movies would give the comic book kid any less grief), it's something we all need to remember, at least those of us here in the US. I'm not as keyed in on the state of animation in places like England or France or Guatemala.

[OutlawTorn]

Transformers, and G.I. joe were animated by Toei, as their distributor, Sunbow, only began animating in - house in the early ninties.

As far as Transformers is concerned, Toei animated the first season and the movie. From season two onward, AKOM in Korea was added to the team and, from the look of it, was the primary studio animating the third season, as well as the final three-parter. I'm quite big into the original Transformers cartoon, so I've picked up these details.

If you EVER want to see animation taken seriously, you need to stop denigrating whole segments of it to make yourself feel special, and instead use evidence across the spectrum to prove that, yes, cartoons can indeed be beautiful things. Culture can change - but only if you work towards it.

This actually mirrors some of my thoughts with getting back to Dragon Ball fans, but probably not in the way as represented in the quoted post. Specifically, I am referring to GT. It's far too common to see people turning their nose up at GT, whether they have legitimate gripes or not, declaring it "non-canon" and "filler" because it wasn't developed, written and illustrated in manga form by Akira Toriyama. I don't mean to insult anybody with this, but I find that to be a completely ludicrous standpoint.

All of the gripes or criticism anybody has is completely valid, but Dragon Ball GT is just as much a part of Dragon Ball canon as the series which preceded it. Gene Roddenberry created Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation, but he had no involvement in the creation of Deep Space Nine, Voyager or Enterprise and, even though people don't unconditionally love every single minute of it (yeah, Enterprise really dropped the ball on a lot of stuff) it doesn't make them "unofficial" Star Trek productions due to the lack of Roddenberry's involvement. Even Roddenberry himself didn't like aspects of the movies he didn't have direct control over. He wasn't even particularly fond of what is considered to be the best Star Trek movie: The Wrath of Khan, at least in terms of a feature offering.

It's even more ludicrous in the Transformers fandom, where people will actually pick and choose things they like from completely unconnected series produced decades apart to justify their opinions from earlier incarnations as actual canon. GT, on the other hand, my simply not be that good, particularly when compared to Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, but I don't see how the term "filler" can apply to it when filler is really only a relevant term to the padding of the series either within or between the story arcs as depicted in the manga it was being adapted from. As GT itself was not adapted from a manga and occurs after the last chapter of the manga, the worst it can be accused of is milking off of the success of Dragon Ball Z. We might even see the same thing once Masashi Kishimoto finishes the Naruto manga.

But, anyway, sometimes I see the type of bashing as reported in the original post as simply being what others perceive as the "cool thing" to do. If I had all of the material in hand as well as the time, I could certainly watch through the entire Dragon Ball animé from beginning to end. Especially now with the option of the Japanese score with English dialogue.

[Rocketman]

All of the gripes or criticism anybody has is completely valid, but Dragon Ball GT is just as much a part of Dragon Ball canon as the series which preceded it.

GT is no more a part of Dragonball canon than the Book of Mormon is part of the Christian canon.

[laserkid]

Yeahhhh you're sort of taking my point out of context here. I didn't say we have to LIKE every cartoon ever made, just that seperating it into little camps doesn't help the medium as a whole. Saying you don't like a certain US show isn't the same as what I was talking about, nor is it the same as saying we have to all like GT either.

[Bussani]

All of the gripes or criticism anybody has is completely valid, but Dragon Ball GT is just as much a part of Dragon Ball canon as the series which preceded it. Gene Roddenberry created Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation, but he had no involvement in the creation of Deep Space Nine, Voyager or Enterprise and, even though people don't unconditionally love every single minute of it (yeah, Enterprise really dropped the ball on a lot of stuff) it doesn't make them "unofficial" Star Trek productions due to the lack of Roddenberry's involvement. Even Roddenberry himself didn't like aspects of the movies he didn't have direct control over. He wasn't even particularly fond of what is considered to be the best Star Trek movie: The Wrath of Khan, at least in terms of a feature offering.

Canon is...confusing. The rules aren't set in stone so much that you can compare Star Trek to Dragon Ball, I'm afraid. When you speak of canon, you're speaking of a collection of works that relate to each other -- they happen in the same universe, is the simplest way of putting it. When people say GT is 'non-canon' they usually mean that it's non-canon to the manga, the 'Toriyama canon'. Heck, filler is, too. And the movies. But that doesn't make them not part of the franchise and it doesn't mean someone can't like them, it just means that the events on them have no effect on the events in the manga.

For Star Trek, it was Gene Roddenberry who said to only take the series' and movies as canon. He even went as far as to say that the novelization of The Motion Picture that he himself wrote shouldn't be considered canon. The reason is simple; trying to fit literally thousands of Star Trek novels into the timeline and trying not to contradict anything these novels say would be a ridiculous task for the writers. To this day, Paramount's official canon policy is available on their website, and it's mostly for the benefit of their writers. When writing an episode, they only have to take things from the TV series and movies as being 'true'.

[samuraigundam]

HA! I read somewhere that creators of Japanese animation hated that term!

Who are these "creators" of Japanese Animation as a genre? I've never heard of them!

Just something I heard down the line around ten years ago.

Seriously though, in Japan, the term "anime" refers to all animation across all regions, not just their own. I can't seem to find it right now, but I recall an image off Kotaku showing a Japanese store's "anime DVD" section, that had in order "Mickey Mouse's Once Upon a Christmas", "Fullmetal Alchemist", and "The Simpsons" all next to each other to prove that point.

Now here in the states anime has come to refer to Japanese Animation as a slang term, replacing the older Japanimation term. That's not necessarily BAD, however if you lose sight of the fact that, yes, anime is also a cartoon you're sort of missing the point. If you allow yourself to buy into the negative connotation of the term cartoon and insist anime isn't a cartoon, then you are assisting in the marginalization of animation in our culture. You might separate Japanese Animation in your head, but most "normal" (if you want to call them that) people do not. So, the more you bash cartoons and try to "separate anime" from them you in so doing prevent animation from being taken seriously in the west.

If you EVER want to see animation taken seriously, you need to stop denigrating whole segments of it to make yourself feel special, and instead use evidence across the spectrum to prove that, yes, cartoons can indeed be beautiful things. Culture can change - but only if you work towards it.

Look at comic books, even ten years ago liking them beyond the big huge mainstays (Superman, Batman, Spiderman) was considered silly and nerdy. Now one of the most well anticipated movies is a sequel to Iron Man. IRON MAN, who was never all that popular when I was growing up is now known, and loved, by my parents of all people, because the culture grew to further accept comic book heroes as legitimate. Animation can also garner this respect but only if we WORK for it, but it will NEVER come to pass if we try to segment it into “anime” and “cartoons”. Anime is slang for Japanese Cartoons, but the point is, it’s still a cartoon. If you can’t get over the fact that Dragon Ball, or any other “anime”, is a cartoon, then you may wish to reevaluate your self esteem level. Because, again, if we – the fans – can’t get it together with respecting the genre as a whole, then how can we expect anyone else to?

I never argued otherwise. Obviously, in Japan the word " Anime " refers to all animation. I was simply saying that as long as the actual frames of animation of any given show are drawn by Japanese animators, even if the story and characters are conceived by non Japanese people ( such as in Gotham Knight ) , than it should be considered Japanese animation, and fall under the term " Anime " , by those outside of Japan. That said, although I agree with you that everything animated should technically be considered cartoons, its not that simple.

I believe the reason people prefer the term " Anime " to " cartoon " when refering to Japanese animation outside of Japan, has to do with the attitude other countries have toward animation in general. Particularly in the U.S. , where cutsie, family friendly animated movies like UP are considered the visual and emotional height of animation, and generate high revenues, while films like Ponyo open in limited release, have little publicity, and dissapear in half a month, despite the fact that Miyazaki's films have been critically praised in the U.S. for over decade. And so, using the term " Anime " outside of Japan has become a sort of rejection of the attitudes other countries have toward animation; a rejection of the concept that animation can never be more than what disney has laid it out to be - kids stuff. The term " Anime " has become a sign of respect for the only side of the medium that takes animation seriously, and treats it as a legitamite tool with which to tell a meaningful story. When other countries begin to respect animation as a legitimate story telling medium, than the term " Anime " will no longer be a necessary divider in the animated medium.

[samuraigundam]

Transformers, and G.I. joe were animated by Toei, as their distributor, Sunbow, only began animating in - house in the early ninties.

As far as Transformers is concerned, Toei animated the first season and the movie. From season two onward, AKOM in Korea was added to the team and, from the look of it, was the primary studio animating the third season, as well as the final three-parter. I'm quite big into the original Transformers cartoon, so I've picked up these details.

I was somewhat aware that from the third season onward a different animation team had picked up the pace, but the information I gathered from so - called professional websites was contradictory at best. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Bussani]

I was simply saying that as long as the actual frames of animation of any given show are drawn by Japanese animators, even if the story and characters are conceived by non Japanese people ( such as in Gotham Knight ) , than it should be considered Japanese animation, and fall under the term " Anime " , by those outside of Japan.

So is any cartoon with the animation done in Korea, 'Korean animation'? And what about Japanese animated shows that were drawn/animated in Korea? I'm not trying to be rude here, I'm honestly curious how the distinction works for you.

For me, I'd say whose project it is and what country is the primary target of the animation matters more than where the frames were done. If a series is conceived in the US, written in the US, voiced in the US and aimed at the US, but animated in Japan, I don't think you can really call it a 'Japanese cartoon'. Which to me is what 'anime' means. But at the end of the day, anime can mean whatever one wants. I still think of it all as animation even if I make arbitrary distinctions when talking to people.

[samuraigundam]

I was simply saying that as long as the actual frames of animation of any given show are drawn by Japanese animators, even if the story and characters are conceived by non Japanese people ( such as in Gotham Knight ) , than it should be considered Japanese animation, and fall under the term " Anime " , by those outside of Japan.

So is any cartoon with the animation done in Korea, 'Korean animation'? And what about Japanese animated shows that were drawn/animated in Korea? I'm not trying to be rude here, I'm honestly curious how the distinction works for you.

For me, I'd say whose project it is and what country is the primary target of the animation matters more than where the frames were done. If a series is conceived in the US, written in the US, voiced in the US and aimed at the US, but animated in Japan, I don't think you can really call it a 'Japanese cartoon'. Which to me is what 'anime' means. But at the end of the day, anime can mean whatever one wants. I still think of it all as animation even if I make arbitrary distinctions when talking to people.

No offense taken.

One of the flaws of text messages is that it's sometimes difficult to convey the tone in which you are writing. Everyone seems to read each others' messages with the idea that the person who wrote it does so with anger, fury, and / or an intent to offend and anger, which sometimes makes it necessary to tell people you're not being rude, or angry, or that what you just said is only your opinion.

Anyway...

I am aware that Korean animators handle the finishing touches ( painting, in - between animations ) for programs animated in Japan, but if the actual frames of animation are done in full in another Asian country, like Korea, then it technically escapes " Anime " as a term used outside of Japan. Since those outside of Japan use the Japanese language word for animation, " Anime " , as a term to describe animation specifically drawn by Japanese animators, anything that is not actually animated by Japanese people can't technically be described as " Anime " , even if it was conceived in Japan, by Japanese creators, or based on a Japanese novel, Manga, movie, etc.

So yes, technically it should be considered Korean animation, in my opinion.

Take, for example, the upcoming Castlevania animated movie, which is being drawn by American animators. Even though Castlevania is a Japanese conceived product, this animated adaptation cannot technically be considered Anime in any way, because it is not drawn by Japanese animators.

This is just my opinion, of course.

[laserkid]

I believe the reason people prefer the term " Anime " to " cartoon " when refering to Japanese animation outside of Japan, has to do with the attitude other countries have toward animation in general. Particularly in the U.S. , where cutsie, family friendly animated movies like UP are considered the visual and emotional height of animation, and generate high revenues, while films like Ponyo open in limited release, have little publicity, and dissapear in half a month, despite the fact that Miyazaki's films have been critically praised in the U.S. for over decade.

You smack talk on "Up" again and I'll come at you with a broom!

And so, using the term " Anime " outside of Japan has become a sort of rejection of the attitudes other countries have toward animation; a rejection of the concept that animation can never be more than what disney has laid it out to be - kids stuff. The term " Anime " has become a sign of respect for the only side of the medium that takes animation seriously, and treats it as a legitamite tool with which to tell a meaningful story. When other countries begin to respect animation as a legitimate story telling medium, than the term " Anime " will no longer be a necessary divider in the animated medium.

And in so doing you help to prevent it from ever happening. Cartoon isn't a bad word, the more you give people who think it is the slack to think it is, the more you help them marginalize everything as a whole, even "anime".

[samuraigundam]

You smack talk on "Up" again and I'll come at you with a broom!

Hey, I like UP too, but its still family fare.

And in so doing you help to prevent it from ever happening. Cartoon isn't a bad word, the more you give people who think it is the slack to think it is, the more you help them marginalize everything as a whole, even "anime".

I never meant to paint " Cartoon " as bad. But, it will take at least a decade for the word cartoon to begin to lose its kiddie stigma, and thats only if big name companies begin to release serious animated films, such as those in Japanese animation, to as wide an audience as live action feature films. And this would have to be sooner, rather than later, because as of right now, the window for Japanese animation, and serious hand drawn animation in general, to make a significant impact is shrinking, considering the fact that CG is set to be the new bankable prospect of the animated medium in the rest of the world. And Disneys new princess movie is not going to cut it. Although, I am happy that Disney is trying to keep hand drawn animation alive in some way.

When a fan of Japanese animation is speaking to someone about animation, they will eventually be asked what style of animation they are most into, and even if they say Japanese cartoons, the person asking will probably reply with something like " oh, you mean Anime " , based on what hes learned by simply browsing the " Anime " section of any store that carries Japanese animation. Is this, and every other Japanese animation fan supposed to give every unknowing person some speach about how wrong he is for calling it that? Highly unlikely. Worst case scenario is that if this unknowing person is a non - fan of Japanese animation with even the slightest interest in it, a smart - ass fan might effectively kill that interest

What are the chances you can prevent this snowball effect, and bring respect back to the word cartoon ? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm asking a serious question.

[Bussani]

No offense taken.

One of the flaws of text messages is that it's sometimes difficult to convey the tone in which you are writing. Everyone seems to read each others' messages with the idea that the person who wrote it does so with anger, fury, and / or an intent to offend and anger, which sometimes makes it necessary to tell people you're not being rude, or angry, or that what you just said is only your opinion.

Yeah, that can be a problem sometimes.

I am aware that Korean animators handle the finishing touches ( painting, in - between animations ) for programs animated in Japan, but if the actual frames of animation are done in full in another Asian country, like Korea, then it technically escapes " Anime " as a term used outside of Japan. Since those outside of Japan use the Japanese language word for animation, " Anime " , as a term to describe animation specifically drawn by Japanese animators, anything that is not actually animated by Japanese people can't technically be described as " Anime " , even if it was conceived in Japan, by Japanese creators, or based on a Japanese novel, Manga, movie, etc.

So yes, technically it should be considered Korean animation, in my opinion.

Take, for example, the upcoming Castlevania animated movie, which is being drawn by American animators. Even though Castlevania is a Japanese conceived product, this animated adaptation cannot technically be considered Anime in any way, because it is not drawn by Japanese animators.

This is just my opinion, of course.

Well, it might already be obvious, but my definition of anime still differs from yours; but that's okay, it's a nickname that's never been defined in stone anyway.

I never meant to paint " Cartoon " as bad. But, it will take at least a decade for the word cartoon to begin to lose its kiddie stigma, and thats only if big name companies begin to release serious animated films, such as those in Japanese animation, to as wide an audience as live action feature films.

Dragon Ball is a kiddie cartoon, though. And Miyazaki's films are as much family fare as any Disney movie. It's not like there are a lot of seinen shows/movies coming out these days.

[laserkid]

Hey, I like UP too, but its still family fare.

You say that like it's a bad thing. As Bussani pointed out, so is Dragon Ball.

I never meant to paint " Cartoon " as bad. But, it will take at least a decade for the word cartoon to begin to lose its kiddie stigma, and thats only if big name companies begin to release serious animated films, such as those in Japanese animation, to as wide an audience as live action feature films. And this would have to be sooner, rather than later, because as of right now, the window for Japanese animation, and serious hand drawn animation in general, to make a significant impact is shrinking, considering the fact that CG is set to be the new bankable prospect of the animated medium in the rest of the world. And Disneys new princess movie is not going to cut it. Although, I am happy that Disney is trying to keep hand drawn animation alive in some way.

The Princess and the Frog is ANYTHING but another "princess" movie. If you don't believe me, go see it. They definitely have made the best Disney film since Lilo and Stitch here, and possibly one of their all time greats.

When a fan of Japanese animation is speaking to someone about animation, they will eventually be asked what style of animation they are most into, and even if they say Japanese cartoons, the person asking will probably reply with something like " oh, you mean Anime " , based on what hes learned by simply browsing the " Anime " section of any store that carries Japanese animation. Is this, and every other Japanese animation fan supposed to give every unknowing person some speach about how wrong he is for calling it that? Highly unlikely. Worst case scenario is that if this unknowing person is a non - fan of Japanese animation with even the slightest interest in it, a smart - ass fan might effectively kill that interest.

I'm not trying to say you can't use the term anime at all - it's a subgenre to be sure - I'm specifically arguing against those that try to forcefully seperate it from the overall genre.

What are the chances you can prevent this snowball effect, and bring respect back to the word cartoon ? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm asking a serious question.

The same way you make changes on any cultural thing, one person at a time.

[samuraigundam]

Well, it might already be obvious, but my definition of anime still differs from yours; but that's okay, it's a nickname that's never been defined in stone anyway.

Thats cool. I completely respect your opinion.

Dragon Ball is a kiddie cartoon, though. And Miyazaki's films are as much family fare as any Disney movie. It's not like there are a lot of seinen shows/movies coming out these days.

That may be so, but the themes in Miyazaki's films are at least a little more intellectual, deeper, and meaningful than most animated films made for kids. The characters ( and this applies to many Japanese animated films ) are not simply black and white, but rather, exist in that more realistic gray area, and often evolve for better or for worse. Not to mention the possibility that even good guys are subject to an unhappy ending. These are things you rarely see in other films aimed at children, outside of Japan. Dragon Ball contains some of that as well.

There have been some mature Japanese animated movies in the past that have sought wide theatrical distribution in the U.S. and never found it. Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust, comes to mind. There was an advertisment for a wide spread release in the manual for the VH game, and a couple of magazines had similar small announcements, but it never happened.

[samuraigundam]

You say that like it's a bad thing. As Bussani pointed out, so is Dragon Ball.

I didnt mean it that way. Its not a bad thing.

The Princess and the Frog is ANYTHING but another "princess" movie. If you don't believe me, go see it. They definitely have made the best Disney film since Lilo and Stitch here, and possibly one of their all time greats.

If thats the case ( and I have no reason to doubt you ) , I may go see it.

I'm not trying to say you can't use the term anime at all - it's a subgenre to be sure - I'm specifically arguing against those that try to forcefully seperate it from the overall genre.

Right, but surely one of the best ways to bring respect back to the word cartoon, is to stop using the term Anime altogether.

The same way you make changes on any cultural thing, one person at a time.

I dont know why, but when I read that, for some reason I pictured someone staring into the setting sun with a dramatic look on their face!

[laserkid]

Well kid, it's your fight now! *dramatic western music*

Seriously, yeah I more or less haven't anything to say to your points there - just liked your sunset comment.

[Vhanos]

I've been to a lot of places. There are forums where it can be uncomfortable to discuss Dragon Ball. Then there are forums where Dragon Ball has a fair amount of respect. I am able to say these because I have endured a lot.


If there is something that boils me it would be how people say it isn't good because of whatever bias they may have or show signs that they just plain don't like it.

People such as these are something I like to call them. HATERS.

DBZ, most notibaly, gets a lot of hate. I've seen it all. The hate it gets come from all angles.

Whenever I see people show a bit of disdain towards DBZ or have an agenda it makes me want to tell them what haters they are.

[Bussani]

Well, people are allowed to dislike or hate it if they want. There are shows that I hate, but I'm sure there are people that like them. I do find it silly if someone hates it without even knowing much about it, though; which quite often seems to be the case when it comes to anime fans and Dragon Ball.

[SHINOBI-03]

You know, this talk about the hatred toward DBZ fans reminded me about an old *cough* IGN *cough* article called...

"What's Wrong with Dragon Ball Z" 01 - 02

And look what they had...

• 01- The Expositional Battles ---- ((Everything else have it))
  02- The Seemingly Endless Levels of Power ---- ((Sasuke?!))
  03- The Animation Recycling ---- ((Azumanga Daioh?))
  04- Recycled, Predictable Plot ---- ((BLEACH?))
  05- This is the Show That Never Ends ---- ((Pokemon?))
  06- The Dub ---- ((Everything from 4Kids?))
  07- Typical One Dimensional Villains ---- ((Everything else have it))
  08- Typical Male Anime Protagonist ---- ((One Piece?))
  09- Race and Anime ---- ((4Kids and anything Japanese?))
  10- Boys Are Better Than Girls ---- ((I believe it's called "Shounen series"?))
  11- Obsessive Fanboys ---- ((Moe shows?))

I mean, Dragon Ball Z is not the only show that has these problems, right? Yet, they act like everything else is 100% without anything faulty in it.