Gohan vs. Dabura

[Bussani]

Using the excuse that it's just a comic or cartoon doesn't work.
...
...
But then, what do you expect from a series that's been breaking the laws of conservation and relativity since the 21st Budokai?

Isn't that sort of the same thing?

Anyway, this has gotten very off topic and wasn't at all my point when I brought it up.

[Drayenko]

My opinion is that at the tournament he was mad about the "Videl thing", so he went SSJ2 without much effort, and when he's gonna fight Dabura he's not mad at all, he's just there fighting...then he realizes that if he'd have beaten Dabura, Piccolo and Krilin would be back to normal. Maybe if he would have realized that earlier, he'd have gone all-out and killed Dabura...that's my opinion.

[Savage68]

My opinion is that at the tournament he was mad about the "Videl thing", so he went SSJ2 without much effort

We already saw him transform in response to Videl's beating, and he was only SSj. It doesn't make sense that he would still be angry about that, when she's perfectly fine and he's not even facing the guy that hurt her in the first place. That just couldn't have been the reason.

[Maphisto86]

My opinion is that at the tournament he was mad about the "Videl thing", so he went SSJ2 without much effort

We already saw him transform in response to Videl's beating, and he was only SSj. It doesn't make sense that he would still be angry about that, when she's perfectly fine and he's not even facing the guy that hurt her in the first place. That just couldn't have been the reason.

Yeah I agree with the idea that Gohan was not really motivated by Videl at that point. He was just trying to save the world and his friends all over again and help his dad who he had not seen in years. It strikes me as weird that SSJ 1 or 2, he didn't seem to go all out if he had the ability to do so.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think we're just going around in circles here, people. All the theories about Gohan having to be angry to transform into SSJ2, needing to be in the right state of mind...each of those hold up as much as the others. We're thinking too hard about this.

Toriyama intended for Son Gohan to be Super Saiyan 1 during his battles with Dabra & Majin Boo, for whatever unknown reason. It's not like we're getting any closer to finding the truth. So we can keep on theorizing pointlessly or we can just conclude that Toriyama just didn't want Gohan to be a SSJ2. The Majin Boo Arc has a lot of inconsistencies. This is just one of them.

[Godo]

Cell said he could blow away the solar system and he can do it. It doesn't make sense in real life, but it's not real life. Just accept it. He was going to blow it all up in one humongous mind numbingly gigantic blast.

Using the excuse that it's just a comic or cartoon doesn't work.

If Cell seriously could make a blast massive enough to destroy their solar system, then that just means all of their planet-busting feats aren't even that impressive by our standards. But then, what do you expect from a series that's been breaking the laws of conservation and relativity since the 21st Budokai?

Then I think that we can agree on that you can blame it on DBZ being a cartoon or a comic?
EDIT: Oh, Bussani beat me to it by lengths. I guess that is what happens when you miss a page.

[Dayspring]

My observations:

1) Dabura is in the same league as Cell.
2) SSJ Gohan is capable of fighting against Cell (and therefore against Dabura).
3) No SSJ2 aura is present as Gohan and Dabura fight.
4) Gohan mentions he can't get as angrey against Dabura as he did against Cell.

Point 4 seems to give us a plotdouken for me to be satisfied that Gohan couldn't go SSJ2, as SSJ2 Gohan would easily dominate the fight. For an in-story reason as to why he couldn't go SSJ2 at the one point he needed it, maybe Kibito's regenerative abilities also calmed his soul too much?

[Drayenko]

My observations:

1) Dabura is in the same league as Cell.
2) SSJ Gohan is capable of fighting against Cell (and therefore against Dabura).
3) No SSJ2 aura is present as Gohan and Dabura fight.
4) Gohan mentions he can't get as angrey against Dabura as he did against Cell.

Point 4 seems to give us a plotdouken for me to be satisfied that Gohan couldn't go SSJ2, as SSJ2 Gohan would easily dominate the fight. For an in-story reason as to why he couldn't go SSJ2 at the one point he needed it, maybe Kibito's regenerative abilities also calmed his soul too much?

Probably, I like that idea.

[Savage68]

I don't. I can't see where it's substantiated anywhere in the story.

[Drayenko]

I don't. I can't see where it's substantiated anywhere in the story.

We're just speculating...

[MasterVampire]

I think its just a screw up where they just didnt have him as ssj2

Like in the movie where he fights Broly - same thing.

[goku the krump dancer]

In the anime SSJ2(Big Gohan) is actually noticable with or without electricity. If you look closely SSJ1 Gohan has 1 big bang and 1 really small one also not all of his hair stands up some of it is still matted down in the back, and SSJ2 has just 1 large bang and all of his hair stands up.

[Savage68]

In the anime, SSj Gohan can go back-and-forth between one and two strands of hair 10 times in one scene...

[Piccolo Daimao]

The hair indicator is a bullshit indicator for telling whether a person is Super Saiyan 2 or not, since it's inconsistent in the Majin Boo Saga. With Gohan, there's next to no difference at all in the hair change, or none at all. With Vegeta, you can't even tell. First time we see Gohan as SSJ1, he has two bangs of hair. Only time we see Gohan as a SSJ2, he has one bang of hair. When Gohan's fighting Dabra & Majin Boo as a SSJ1, he has only one bang of hair. Inconsistent, much?

And, really, I'm glad that you guys decided to completely ignore my comment about going around in circles.

[Maphisto86]

The hair indicator is a bullshit indicator for telling whether a person is Super Saiyan 2 or not, since it's inconsistent in the Majin Boo Saga. With Gohan, there's next to no difference at all in the hair change, or none at all. With Vegeta, you can't even tell. First time we see Gohan as SSJ1, he has two bangs of hair. Only time we see Gohan as a SSJ2, he has one bang of hair. When Gohan's fighting Dabra & Majin Boo as a SSJ1, he has only one bang of hair. Inconsistent, much?

And, really, I'm glad that you guys decided to completely ignore my comment about going around in circles.

Well that is what causes much of the confusion among fans. One bang of hair suggests Gohan was fighting as a SSJ2 against an opponent who, supposedly, was as strong as Perfect Cell (Perfect or "Super" Perfect is debatable but immaterial to my point). So Gohan should not have had as much trouble against Dabura then he did . . . the only hint we get in the manga and anime is that because Gohan neglected his training, even SSJ2 was not enough. Still that is hard for many to believe given SSJ2's inate abilities.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The hair indicator is a bullshit indicator for telling whether a person is Super Saiyan 2 or not, since it's inconsistent in the Majin Boo Saga. With Gohan, there's next to no difference at all in the hair change, or none at all. With Vegeta, you can't even tell. First time we see Gohan as SSJ1, he has two bangs of hair. Only time we see Gohan as a SSJ2, he has one bang of hair. When Gohan's fighting Dabra & Majin Boo as a SSJ1, he has only one bang of hair. Inconsistent, much?

And, really, I'm glad that you guys decided to completely ignore my comment about going around in circles.

Well that is what causes much of the confusion among fans. One bang of hair suggests Gohan was fighting as a SSJ2 against an opponent who, supposedly, was as strong as Perfect Cell (Perfect or "Super" Perfect is debatable but immaterial to my point). So Gohan should not have had as much trouble against Dabura then he did . . . the only hint we get in the manga and anime is that because Gohan neglected his training, even SSJ2 was not enough. Still that is hard for many to believe given SSJ2's inate abilities.

You could argue that Son Gohan was a relaxed Super Saiyan when he had two bangs of hair, and that he has only one bang hair during his full power Super Saiyan state and Super Saiyan 2. I mean, those times we saw him (his fight against the robbers & his sparring with Goten), he looked just like how he and Goku did in the 10-day-period before the Cell Games, and he didn't have an aura either.

But again, this is just speculation. For all we know, Toriyama either forgot about the hair difference or was like, "Aw, fuck it, no-one's gonna notice one little missing strand of hair?" Just like he was like, "Aw, fuck it, no-one's going to notice how ridiculously flawed it is that Super Boo turned into Kid Boo after he got Fat Boo and the others he absorbed ripped out of him", or, "Aw, fuck it, no-one's going to notice how I can twist my own over-used plot devices to suit myself, and how strange it is that Kid Boo didn't regenerate from the Genki-Dama, despite the fact that Boo's been seen to regenerate from all kinds of shit."

Actually, it seemed like Toriyama went, "Aw, fuck it," half of the time during the Majin Boo Arc because he just couldn't be arsed anymore.

End of rant.

[Maphisto86]

The hair indicator is a bullshit indicator for telling whether a person is Super Saiyan 2 or not, since it's inconsistent in the Majin Boo Saga. With Gohan, there's next to no difference at all in the hair change, or none at all. With Vegeta, you can't even tell. First time we see Gohan as SSJ1, he has two bangs of hair. Only time we see Gohan as a SSJ2, he has one bang of hair. When Gohan's fighting Dabra & Majin Boo as a SSJ1, he has only one bang of hair. Inconsistent, much?

And, really, I'm glad that you guys decided to completely ignore my comment about going around in circles.

Well that is what causes much of the confusion among fans. One bang of hair suggests Gohan was fighting as a SSJ2 against an opponent who, supposedly, was as strong as Perfect Cell (Perfect or "Super" Perfect is debatable but immaterial to my point). So Gohan should not have had as much trouble against Dabura then he did . . . the only hint we get in the manga and anime is that because Gohan neglected his training, even SSJ2 was not enough. Still that is hard for many to believe given SSJ2's inate abilities.

You could argue that Son Gohan was a relaxed Super Saiyan when he had two bangs of hair, and that he has only one bang hair during his full power Super Saiyan state and Super Saiyan 2. I mean, those times we saw him (his fight against the robbers & his sparring with Goten), he looked just like how he and Goku did in the 10-day-period before the Cell Games, and he didn't have an aura either.

But again, this is just speculation. For all we know, Toriyama either forgot about the hair difference or was like, "Aw, fuck it, no-one's gonna notice one little missing strand of hair?" Just like he was like, "Aw, fuck it, no-one's going to notice how ridiculously flawed it is that Super Boo turned into Kid Boo after he got Fat Boo and the others he absorbed ripped out of him", or, "Aw, fuck it, no-one's going to notice how I can twist my own over-used plot devices to suit myself, and how strange it is that Kid Boo didn't regenerate from the Genki-Dama, despite the fact that Boo's been seen to regenerate from all kinds of shit."

Actually, it seemed like Toriyama went, "Aw, fuck it," half of the time during the Majin Boo Arc because he just couldn't be arsed anymore.

End of rant.

Very intuitive Daimao, in fact I would like to point out that you have revealed good potential insight on to the author's frame of .... Aaaah fuck it! I am not adding anything worthy or new to this discussion at all.

P.S. That post made my day Daimao.

So on-topic, inversely how strong was Dabura then? I know this question has been posed before but what does Goku's actual dialogue suggest concerning Dabura's comparison to Gohan and Cell?

[goodguy777]

You don't need to think so hard just to know the answer. It's either use the on panel showings of the manga or use the databooks. That's it. Creating theories will only make your head hurt and in the end, it's just a non canon or fan made theory compare to canon manga and canon manga databooks.

[Piccolo Daimao]

So on-topic, inversely how strong was Dabura then? I know this question has been posed before but what does Goku's actual dialogue suggest concerning Dabura's comparison to Gohan and Cell?

I guess he meant Perfect Cell, the Cell he fought. There's not that much to annotate from it.

[Kaboom]

So on-topic, inversely how strong was Dabura then? I know this question has been posed before but what does Goku's actual dialogue suggest concerning Dabura's comparison to Gohan and Cell?

Goku's comparison was a very loose one, and not nearly exact enough for us to be sure. We never did quite see how strong SSj Gohan was at the Cell Games, since he hardly did anything to fight back until reaching Super Saiyan 2. But based on how relatively unharmed he was by Cell's little beatdown, he may have had enough power to at least put up a good fight against or even match Cell's full power. Against Dabra was actually the first time we've seen Gohan seriously fight someone as just a regular Super Saiyan. He was rusty and his power had waned, though. So I'd guess since the fight was so even, Dabra is hovering somewhere right between Cell's full power and the suppressed level he fought Goku with.