Gohan vs. Dabura

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

...What?

So, if what you're saying is true, whenever Dende heals someone that's in terrible condition...their health returns, but their ki remains incredibly low?

I can't think of an instant that goes against this at the moment, so yes. The only thing that manages to restore both heath and ki is the senzu bean.

[Savage68]

An instant that goes against that goes against it would be every time that one is healed and starts fighting right away, without powering up.

[Miracles]

The Daizenshûu [official data books] written by Toriyama's staff with Toriyama's approval says Gohan did use Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura.

Fuck the Daizenshuu. There's no lightning at all, therefore he is not SS2.

Inconsistencies in drawings and plot happen. The Daizenshuu is approved by the man himself, we can't just toss it aside.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

An instant that goes against that goes against it would be every time that one is healed and starts fighting right away, without powering up.

The only fighters eligible for healing on Namek(before he died) were Krillin, Gohan and Vegeta. Gohan and Vegeta have the Saiyan ability to gain more energy after a near death experience as for Krillin, his healing was dealt with off camera so I can't say weather or not if he powered up. As far as I can prove Dene can only heal injuries and not restore ki so my theory with Kabito still has some valid points(at least I think so ).

[Savage68]

You think that they would power-up off camera? How often has that happened?

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

You think that they would power-up off camera? How often has that happened?

Not so often but for budget and animation reasons I don't see why it's not possible. The scene was meant to show off Dende's ability to the viewers/readers and surprise Freeza. Freeza can't sense ki so Powering up just enough to shoot off a destructo Disc while his back is turned would still work in theory.

[Savage68]

That doesn't explain any of the other numerous instances.

[Kaboom]

Inconsistencies in drawings and plot happen.

The lightning is missing from his aura for two entire chapters, when it was consistent in himself, Goku, and Vegeta for actual instances of SSj2 before and after. That's not an "art inconsistency." That's on purpose. Gohan was purposely and blatantly not portrayed as a Super Saiyan 2. Therefore he was not one. I don't know why anyone even argues that he was.

The Daizenshuu is approved by the man himself, we can't just toss it aside.

So you're saying we should take the word of the accompanying guidebook over what's actually shown in the original material that it's meant to supplement? Wrong-o. I don't f*ckin' think so.

I can guarantee you that Mr. Toriyama did not carefully and meticulously read through all nine or so Daizenshuu, compare each and every little tidbit of information against the manga and his own notes, and personally fix any mistakes he saw.

The Daizenshuu are 'companion' books. They're a collection of some nifty bonus material. Their word is not law.

[Drayenko]

...What?

So, if what you're saying is true, whenever Dende heals someone that's in terrible condition...their health returns, but their ki remains incredibly low?

I can't think of an instant that goes against this at the moment, so yes. The only thing that manages to restore both heath and ki is the senzu bean.

Hmmm, if that were true, in the fight against Kid Buu, why did they want Kibitokai to Teleport with Dende to where Goku was if it doesn't return the ki? And at the same time, if it does return the ki, I don't know why he didn't heal Kibitokai...The manga contradicts itself in that part...

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

That doesn't explain any of the other numerous instances.

Numerous instances of what, powering up? Like I said, it was meant to be a surprise for both viewers and Freeza himself. It's not impossible that he powered up because Freeza can't sense ki and the surprise would still be there however its also works the other way like you said. The problem is it's just speculation. I can tell you Dende has healing abilities. The manga nor the anime never really says anything about Ki restoration.

Kabito works the other way around. Based on observation he focuses on restoring Ki but doesn't have the ability to work on health. That being said, Kabito's Ki restoration is probably only limited to the amount of Ki he possesses, and if Gohan is stronger than Kabito then Kabito can't restore Gohan's ki to 100%.

Kabito's powers would then work differently than Dendes. Kabito's ki would determine how much energy he could restore while Dende's ki would determine how many wounds he could heal. Neither one conflicts with the other so I don't see why my theory can't work.

[VegettoEX]

I can't hold it in anymore. I'm sorry.

There is no such character as "Kabito".

You've got "Kaioshin" and "Kibito". Even if you're using some of the fan-made fusion names like "Kibitoshin" or "Kaiobit", there's still no "Kabito" ever used once anywhere.

[Savage68]

Numerous instances of what, powering up? Like I said, it was meant to be a surprise for both viewers and Freeza himself.

I'm talking about every time Dende has healed someone mid-battle. Was that person's subsequent strike meant to be a surprise every time?

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

Numerous instances of what, powering up? Like I said, it was meant to be a surprise for both viewers and Freeza himself.

I'm talking about every time Dende has healed someone mid-battle. Was that person's subsequent strike meant to be a surprise every time?

No, but I'm also having a hard time figuring out all the instances of Dende's healing. I've done some thinking(and I have limited resources) and I really can't think of all the times Dende used his powers.

I know of Vegeta's because of his goal to be a Super Saiyan.

Krillin's was the first time Dende used his powers so it was a surpise.

After Gohan was healed by Dende he powered up for Freeza.

I can't hold it in anymore. I'm sorry.

There is no such character as "Kabito".

You've got "Kaioshin" and "Kibito". Even if you're using some of the fan-made fusion names like "Kibitoshin" or "Kaiobit", there's still no "Kabito" ever used once anywhere.

eek! I'm sorry.

[Miracles]

Inconsistencies in drawings and plot happen.

The lightning is missing from his aura for two entire chapters, when it was consistent in himself, Goku, and Vegeta for actual instances of SSj2 before and after. That's not an "art inconsistency." That's on purpose. Gohan was purposely and blatantly not portrayed as a Super Saiyan 2. Therefore he was not one. I don't know why anyone even argues that he was.

The Daizenshuu is approved by the man himself, we can't just toss it aside.

So you're saying we should take the word of the accompanying guidebook over what's actually shown in the original material that it's meant to supplement? Wrong-o. I don't f*ckin' think so.

I can guarantee you that Mr. Toriyama did not carefully and meticulously read through all nine or so Daizenshuu, compare each and every little tidbit of information against the manga and his own notes, and personally fix any mistakes he saw.

The Daizenshuu are 'companion' books. They're a collection of some nifty bonus material. Their word is not law.

The Daizenshuu is law over everyone's word here cause it is explaining a situation not confirmed in the series. Vegeta and Goku even comments on the fact how weak Gohan is against Dabura compared to when he fought Cell which is more proof that the Daizenshuu is corect about Gohan using his full power [Super Saiyan 2] against Dabura.

[Kaboom]

The Daizenshuu is law over everyone's word here cause it is explaining a situation not confirmed in the series. Vegeta and Goku even comments on the fact how weak Gohan is against Dabura compared to when he fought Cell which is more proof that the Daizenshuu is corect about Gohan using his full power [Super Saiyan 2] against Dabura.

Wrong.

It has nothing to do with the word of figures of any fan. The manga itself clearly shows Gohan as a Super Saiyan 1. The Daizenshuu claims he's a Super Saiyan 2. The manga takes precedence. Thus the Daizenshuu is wrong. It's not up for debate.

[Miracles]

The Daizenshuu is law over everyone's word here cause it is explaining a situation not confirmed in the series. Vegeta and Goku even comments on the fact how weak Gohan is against Dabura compared to when he fought Cell which is more proof that the Daizenshuu is corect about Gohan using his full power [Super Saiyan 2] against Dabura.

Wrong.

It has nothing to do with the word of figures of any fan. The manga itself clearly shows Gohan as a Super Saiyan 1. The Daizenshuu claims he's a Super Saiyan 2. The manga takes precedence. Thus the Daizenshuu is wrong. It's not up for debate.

Yet you ignore the fact Vegeta and Goku say how weak Gohan is fighting Dabura comapred to when he fought Cell [manga], which means he was at full power. Confirming Daizenshuu's official statement about Gohan using Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura.

[Metalwario64]

Yet you ignore the fact Vegeta and Goku say how weak Gohan is fighting Dabura comapred to when he fought Cell [manga]

If Gohan was at Super Saiyan 1, then of course he would be weaker...

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

Yet you ignore the fact Vegeta and Goku say how weak Gohan is fighting Dabura comapred to when he fought Cell [manga], which means he was at full power. Confirming Daizenshuu's official statement about Gohan using Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura.

That doesn't mean he was at full power, it just means that he has been slacking off during the 7 year gap. You could also argue my theory into this where Kibito's(see I learn) energy restoration powers didn't refill Gohan's Ki 100%. The fact of the matter is the Manga, you know the official work done by the actual author illustrates Gohan as a normal Super Saiyan. Why, well that's what this threads about.

Listen the Daizenshuu's are great pieces of work but they weren't written by Akira Toriyama himself. Just because its official doesn't mean it doesn't have mistakes. Sure Akira Toriyama approved the books but he also approved Evolution so there you go. Its an easy question to answer but who are you going to believe, the work from the man himself or a guide book written by someone else?

[Kaboom]

Yet you ignore the fact Vegeta and Goku say how weak Gohan is fighting Dabura compared to when he fought Cell [manga], which means he was at full power. Confirming Daizenshuu's official statement about Gohan using Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura.

No, it doesn't. It just means he's weaker. It has nothing to do with which form he's using.

You're trying to warp around the meanings of vague statements to support a TYPO. One which flies in the face of what's shown plainly.

If your glorified, almighty Daizenshuu claimed that Goku used Super Saiyan 3 against Majin Vegeta, would you believe it? Would you defend it? Even though it's obviously wrong?

[rereboy]

SSJ 1 Gohan in the Cell games was able to have a somewhat even match against Cell without even trying because he didn`t want to fight. If he had fought he would do better than SSJ 1 Goku did and he would possibly make Cell use his full power on him while in SSJ 1.

But when Gohan transformed into SSJ 2, he took down full powered Cell with 2 or 3 blows, without even trying. He could have killed him anytime he wanted to.

So to me it goes like this:

unwilling to fight seriously SSJ 1 young Gohan < Cell (power restrained) < willing to fight seriously SSJ 1 young Gohan < Cell (full powered) << SSJ 2 young Gohan

But when Cell came back from the dead he was suddenly much stronger. But as proven by their fight, Gohan was stronger still, and had enough energy to repel him and kill him. So:

unwilling to fight seriously SSJ 1 young Gohan < Cell (power restrained) < willing to fight seriously SSJ 1 young Gohan < Cell (full powered) << Zenkai Cell < SSJ 2 young Gohan

So, going with the visual evidence of the Dabura/Gohan fight what can we say? It looks like he was SSJ 1. Very well, but does that make sense in terms of what was previously demonstrated in regards to power?

Well, we know that Dabura was somewhere around the power of Cell, most likely around the power of Cell (full powered) because that was the most powerful Cell that Goku saw alive and it was him who stated he was around Cell`s power.

And we know that Dabura also always had the upper hand in their fight. So that places Dabura higher than Gohan in their fight. And Gohan should be a little weaker than willing to fight seriously SSJ 1 young Gohan if he was SSJ 1.
Looking at their fight, I would say that is about right. That also goes well with Vegeta`s question of why isn`t he stronger and Gohan`s answer. The last time he had fought seriously with the SSJ 2 he got his father killed. And he doesn`t want to repeat that mistake, doesn`t want to become that person who got his father killed. Its a lot different fighting a deathmatch with SSJ 2 than in a tournament match where he can`t get anybody killed because there aren`t any lives at stake.

So yes, it makes sense in terms of what was previously demonstrated in regards to power that Gohan was SSJ 1.

But does it also make sense that he would be SSJ 2? Only if we consider Dabura to be close or equal to Zenkai Cell in power. SSJ 2 was stronger than that but since he got a little weaker, it makes sense.

So, out of these two which one makes more sense?

The two make sense in regards of power, but only one makes sense in regards of visual evidence. The first one, the SSJ 1 theory.

So, in conclusion, the SSJ 1 theory has more going for it in the manga. And thats why I believe he was SSJ 1.