Gohan vs. Dabura

[Savage68]

Thats doesn`t make him irrational or does he stop having a pure heart because of that because as we saw in DB being angry doesn`t have anything to do with being pure of heart.

Honestly, I don`t know why I bother talking to some users...

I already explained why this is more unlikely than anything. No one's asking what you would do if you were him.

[Godo]

Thats doesn`t make him irrational or does he stop having a pure heart because of that because as we saw in DB being angry doesn`t have anything to do with being pure of heart.

Honestly, I don`t know why I bother talking to some users...

I already explained why this is more unlikely than anything. No one's asking what you would do if you were him.

And he shows how rationality can affect his theory. You are just repeating yourself instead of reading other people's posts.

[Savage68]

Pretty sure I wouldn't be able to respond to them if I didn't read them...

You didn't contribute anything to the topic, once again. Among two distinctly reasonable possiblities, it makes the most sense go with the one that's more likely. Not to project your own tendencies onto the character. There was nothing to be angry about anymore.

Since when has a character in this series still been p.o.'d about something that has long since been a non-factor?

[Cold Skin]

So I think that the evidence points toward him actually having trouble to transform. He did transform, but I think that his power was just about at the lower limit to be able to transform.

Yeah, I agree with that. That's what I tried to say with my last paragraph, but I didn't express it as well as you did here. He just barely reach the level I think when he transforms for Kibito. So I guess even when wanting to go full power, he wouldn't play the Super Saiyan 2 unless absolute emergency, and probably absolute anger (which he has trouble finding given the circumstances, far from being the "all my friends are tortured at the same time and an somebody dies with final words of encouragement" tragic situation he knew).

I consider he can transform easily, but to a level when he can barely sustain the form and can - well it's a bit exagerated - just stand and talk basically. But there's no evidence of that part, it's my own interpretation which was the only one I could find to justify the events of "Super Saiyan 2 or not" in Boo's arc.

[Savage68]

I consider he can transform easily, but to a level when he can barely sustain the form and can - well it's a bit exagerated - just stand and talk basically. But there's no evidence of that part, it's my own interpretation which was the only one I could find to justify the events of "Super Saiyan 2 or not" in Boo's arc.

This is actually one of the most sound notions I've heard regarding his teen SSj 2.

[MasterVampire]

You know I was just watching this fight on youtube and the perfect part for Gohan to take it up to ssj2 is when Dabura says:

"Is that all the power your transformation yeilds?"

[Savage68]

That was either filler or a dub line, though.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I consider he can transform easily, but to a level when he can barely sustain the form and can - well it's a bit exagerated - just stand and talk basically. But there's no evidence of that part, it's my own interpretation which was the only one I could find to justify the events of "Super Saiyan 2 or not" in Boo's arc.

This is actually one of the most sound notions I've heard regarding his teen SSj 2.

Really?

[Godo]

Pretty sure I wouldn't be able to respond to them if I didn't read them...

You didn't contribute anything to the topic, once again. Among two distinctly reasonable possiblities, it makes the most sense go with the one that's more likely. Not to project your own tendencies onto the character. There was nothing to be angry about anymore.

Since when has a character in this series still been p.o.'d about something that has long since been a non-factor?

Well, let me contribute, then!

He had enough reason to be angry:



And also, Kibito's abrupt death.

Is that a valid contribution for you? Or are these frames something that by the time of the Dabura fight are a non-factor.

[Drayenko]

If he forgot about Piccolo! Being stoned, how would he remember "some people"...

[Cold Skin]

Pretty sure I wouldn't be able to respond to them if I didn't read them...

You didn't contribute anything to the topic, once again. Among two distinctly reasonable possiblities, it makes the most sense go with the one that's more likely. Not to project your own tendencies onto the character. There was nothing to be angry about anymore.

Since when has a character in this series still been p.o.'d about something that has long since been a non-factor?

Well, let me contribute, then!

He had enough reason to be angry:

http://i49.tinypic.com/2u73asx.jpg

And also, Kibito's abrupt death.

Is that a valid contribution for you? Or are these frames something that by the time of the Dabura fight are a non-factor.

No, actually it's well thought. It's true that it's horrible and that he looks a bit pissed off, but he needs more than just pissed off by unknown people being killed. Even as a kid, seeing Nameks getting killed (including a kid) pissed him off to the "losing my mind" point (needed to access his true Super Saiyan 2 state), and yet he didn't even transform into a Super Saiyan at that point. He needs to "lose his conscious state of mind" to turn into the next transformation I think, and be EXTREMELY angry, be so eager to kill the enemy that he doesn't care to restrain for the sake of people and nature around.

On those pictures, you can see clearly that he's not in that state of mind. You got the drops on his face indicating that he feels uneasy or maybe holds back his anger to stay hidden (not like he did as a kid on Namek), which is not the right state of mind for his true Super Saiyan 2 self I think. Just my opinion though, let's see what other people think about this page.

As for Piccolo and Krilin after that, they're not suffering, just paralyzed cause there's a way to get them back.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Pretty sure I wouldn't be able to respond to them if I didn't read them...

You didn't contribute anything to the topic, once again. Among two distinctly reasonable possiblities, it makes the most sense go with the one that's more likely. Not to project your own tendencies onto the character. There was nothing to be angry about anymore.

Since when has a character in this series still been p.o.'d about something that has long since been a non-factor?

Well, let me contribute, then!

He had enough reason to be angry:

http://i49.tinypic.com/2u73asx.jpg

And also, Kibito's abrupt death.

Is that a valid contribution for you? Or are these frames something that by the time of the Dabura fight are a non-factor.

No, actually it's well thought. It's true that it's horrible and that he looks a bit pissed off, but he needs more than just pissed off by unknown people being killed. Even as a kid, seeing Nameks getting killed (including a kid) pissed him off to the "losing my mind" point (needed to access his true Super Saiyan 2 state), and yet he didn't even transform into a Super Saiyan at that point. He needs to "lose his conscious state of mind" to turn into the next transformation I think, and be EXTREMELY angry, be so eager to kill the enemy that he doesn't care to restrain for the sake of people and nature around.

On those pictures, you can see clearly that he's not in that state of mind. You got the drops on his face indicating that he feels uneasy or maybe holds back his anger to stay hidden (not like he did as a kid on Namek), which is not the right state of mind for his true Super Saiyan 2 self I think. Just my opinion though, let's see what other people think about this page.

As for Piccolo and Krilin after that, they're not suffering, just paralyzed cause there's a way to get them back.

I agree with that.

[Son_Gohan]

No, actually it's well thought. It's true that it's horrible and that he looks a bit pissed off, but he needs more than just pissed off by unknown people being killed. Even as a kid, seeing Nameks getting killed (including a kid) pissed him off to the "losing my mind" point (needed to access his true Super Saiyan 2 state), and yet he didn't even transform into a Super Saiyan at that point. He needs to "lose his conscious state of mind" to turn into the next transformation I think, and be EXTREMELY angry, be so eager to kill the enemy that he doesn't care to restrain for the sake of people and nature around.

On those pictures, you can see clearly that he's not in that state of mind. You got the drops on his face indicating that he feels uneasy or maybe holds back his anger to stay hidden (not like he did as a kid on Namek), which is not the right state of mind for his true Super Saiyan 2 self I think. Just my opinion though, let's see what other people think about this page.

As for Piccolo and Krilin after that, they're not suffering, just paralyzed cause there's a way to get them back.

I don't quite agree with that...

Anger isn't the only prerequisite needed to transform into a Super Saiyan. So regardless if he was in that state of mind at that time, Gohan could've still lacked the capability to transform into it.

Though, I do agree that he wasn't as angry there as he was during Videl's match with Spopovich, but not because of the beads of sweat (which are usually always added whenever someone gets angry).

As for what I think about the general subject, I'm more inclined to believe that he was using Super Saiyan 2.

Lightning is a big indicator for the SSJ2 state but I wouldn't say it outweighs all else. I mean we saw him transform freely in the tournament, where he didn't need to be in a state of anger in order to do that. There's not much reason for him not to use the form again, and it was never stated that he didn't either. Vegeta's statements and attitude also appear to make more sense if Gohan was already using his full power. Since if he was using SSJ1, Vegeta or Goku would've at least alluded that Gohan had a SSJ form in reserve against Dabura and that he should stop playing around, but neither did.

[Rocketman]

Lightning is a big indicator for the SSJ2 state but I wouldn't say it outweighs all else.

Lightning is the only indicator we have to go on with Buu Saga Gohan and Vegeta.

Since if he was using SSJ1, Vegeta or Goku would've at least alluded that Gohan had a SSJ form in reserve against Dabura and that he should stop playing around, but neither did.

Nobody thinks of SS1 and SS2 as seperate forms until Goku's exposition about SS3.

[Savage68]

They knew the difference way before that.

Gohan says that Goku and Vegeta are fighting at ' a level beyond Super Saiyan' and Vegeta makes a comment regarding Goku having surpassed the Super Saiyan wall, as well. They know that SSj and what we refer to as SSj 2 are two distinct forms.

[Son_Gohan]

Lightning is the only indicator we have to go on with Buu Saga Gohan and Vegeta.

I wouldn't say the "only" one.

Vegeta's is harder to distinguish without lightning, but for Gohan, I can usually tell the difference.

Nobody thinks of SS1 and SS2 as seperate forms until Goku's exposition about SS3.

They knew before then.

Even Bulma knew, and she never even saw Gohan transform the first time.

[Cold Skin]

A quote you may reflect on, it might help with the different hypothesis:

TANKOBON 38: SHOWDOWN OF FATE, SON GOKU VERSUS VEGETA
CHAPTER 459: COUNTDOWN

GOHAN: "I'm angry! I'm burning with rage, but somehow I can't manage to retrieve... the state I was in at the time..." [seems to turn into a simple Super Saiyan, possibly unable to reach more]

By "the state", he could refer to:
- The SUPER SAIYAN 2 STATE.
- The STATE OF MIND he needs to reveal his real power (real Super Saiyan 2, stronger than anybody according to what Goku said, which is obviously never the case in the Boo saga, until he has his potential extended by the Ancestral Kaio Shin).

So, what do you think of that line he says (or rather, thinks)?

[Son_Gohan]

He had no problems transforming into the 2nd state at the tournament, so for him to be struggling later on, doesn't make much sense to me.

Especially when at the tournament, he did not need to be in a state of anger to transform in the first place. That statement makes me think that he was already using his full power but needed to acquire more through anger in order to make a difference, just like back in the Kamehameha struggle against Cell.

[Bussani]

Especially when at the tournament, he did not need to be in a state of anger to transform in the first place.

There's not really any way of knowing this. Gohan learned to transform into a Super Saiyan for the first time just by thinking about Freeza, something that happened ages ago and he should have been over, by people's logic. That doesn't mean he can't use the memory and/or his imagination as a catalyst.

I can't remember if I already wrote this somewhere in this thread, but Goku told Trunks that he couldn't go Super Saiyan 'at will' at first, but trained to be able to do so. Yet he was still able to transform back into one when Freeza threw a Kienzan-ish thing at him, and likewise Gohan was able to transform back to SSJ2 when Cell re-appeared. However, they doesn't necessarily mean they can do it 'at will', as in, whenever they want, in any situation, no matter what they're feeling. I guess it's about having really good control over your emotions, and thus your ki.

Super Saiyan itself is second nature to Gohan by the Buu saga. It's almost too easy, which might be why he transformed only to that stage in anger over Videl's beating. He may have gone further if he hadn't been holding himself back, which I definitely think he was, or he would have been in that ring faster than when he blew his cover to kick Dodoria.

So what does all this mean to me? I think Gohan can choose to go SSJ2, but only if he's in the right emotional state. What he lacks is the ability to get into that state at will. Being angry may make becoming SSJ2 easier, with more anger making it more easy. But even if he was over what happened to Videl, he may have been able to draw on the experience to make the transformation easier. Or heck, it could have been leftover adrenalin that made it easier (though that doesn't make sense by itself, since he should have had plenty of adrenalin fighting Dabura).

Point is, for some reason he couldn't get into that state of mind while fighting Dabura. Your mind's funny like that when you're put on the spot sometimes.

[Son_Gohan]

Super Saiyan 1 isn't really a similar comparison with the later forms though, since it's the original, and a state the Saiyan had never been accustomed to beforehand. So understandably, they'd have more trouble controlling the transformation initially.

I think once the Saiyan has mastered SSJ1, the forms which succeed it wouldn't be as hard to control after they are unlocked. We've seen Vegeta and Gohan go from their base state straight to Super Saiyan 2 before and Goku even went from base to Super Saiyan 3 instantly.

By the way Gohan was acting at the tournament, it appeared like he was more worried about concealing his identity, rather than the actual transformation. The actual transformation seemed to come easy for him, as he even offers to take it beyond Super Saiyan. There's no doubt in his mind that he was capable of it at the time, and no internal conflict was present in order for him to achieve it. When Buu's ball is about to hatch, Gohan admits that he is angry but not like he was when he fought Cell. The hidden powers he would release through anger were never something he could tap into willingly, only when he lost control of himself. At the tournament, he was in complete control and it was never a problem for him then.

So I believe he was already using the SSJ2 state and just needed more power, anger was always something that granted him that, even before he was able to transform into SSJ.