Dragon Ball Ranking

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
IncredibleGuy
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Re: Dragon Ball Ranking

Post by IncredibleGuy » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:28 am

Innagadadavida wrote: That was the whole point. You're agreeing with the show. The numbers were introduced in DBZ as a way to give a little perspective and to introduce a different league of fighters who believed the use of technology could be used to determine the outcome of a fight (which by the third episode is proven to be a faulty philosophy). As we move along in the story we see that that technology is unreliable and that our heroes use their skill and spirit to win fights without relying on any sort of technical readout. At the beginning of the Freeza arc the reason one fighter could completely dominate another if they had a higher powerlevel is because their philosophy on battle power was that it was a static concept. It simply did not occur to them that there was any tangible way to control their ki in the way Goku or Captain Ginyu was able to. The concept of "Battle Powers" served its purpose and was quickly done away with. It was nonsense. That was the entire purpose of its existence within the story.
I don't want to be the Dragon Ball nerd here, but you don't know what you're talking about. The only time powerlevels were seen as unreliable in the Dragon Ball universe was when characters made a conscious effort to hide, or suppress them. I'm talking about characters being thousands of points weaker than other characters without suppression and not getting completely demolished despite the fact that Goku and Piccolo together were getting the crap knocked out of them by somebody with a powerlevel only a couple hundred points larger than their own. But hey, if you wanna convince me otherwise, I left a whole bunch of examples for Miracles to explain just a few posts earlier.
Yes. Yes it does. Because within the Dragon Ball universe, inner energy, "Ki" is a universal property within all living beings.
Ugh... the only reason Ki is a universal property is because Toriyama made it a universal property. If he wanted to he could have also given the namekians organs and arteries, which would've explained why they bled and had throats which they could use to swallow objects. At any rate, I don't think you understand my complaint. Ki healing is overused in japanese anime, and for no good reason. Any Japanese artist who chooses to ignore this ridiculous concept gets points in my book, regardless of the quality of the rest of their work.
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Re: Dragon Ball Ranking

Post by Xyex » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:41 am

Think of this way: the sheer numerical difference isn't what counts, it's the proportionate difference that counts.
Exactly.
Which is complete nonsense.
How is that nonsense? Why would always needing to be about 33% stronger than your opponent to completely outclass them in power be nonsense? How would it make sense if you only had to have 400 points more power than the other guy, no matter what, to outclass them, make sense? Why is 10,000 smacking around 6,700 and 1,000,000 smacking around 670,000 equally well less realistic than 1,000,000 smacking around 999,600 and 800 smacking around 400 equally well?
As illustrated by Thanos above, Dragonball's power level system is certainly not logical,
It is, actually.
or perhaps you'd like to explain to me the difference between Kai-o-ken and KOKx2.
Author error.
Or why Goku can't use KOK while Super Saiyan.
Too much power to survive it. Kaioken alone is dangerous and runs the risk of blowing you up from the inside out.
Or whether Super Saiyan is a multiplier, or a flat power boost.
Multiplier. Manga shows so, Daizenshuu says so, good enough for me.
Or why Gohan's rage boosts differ in proportion and size everytime they're introduced.
They don't.
Last edited by Xyex on Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Ranking

Post by Innagadadavida » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:43 am

IncredibleGuy wrote:I don't want to be the Dragon Ball nerd here, but you don't know what you're talking about. The only time powerlevels were seen as unreliable in the Dragon Ball universe was when characters made a conscious effort to hide, or suppress them. I'm talking about characters being thousands of points weaker than other characters without suppression and not getting completely demolished despite the fact that Goku and Piccolo together were getting the crap knocked out of them by somebody with a powerlevel only a couple hundred points larger than their own. But hey, if you wanna convince me otherwise, I left a whole bunch of examples for Miracles to explain just a few posts earlier.
Oh no, trust me, I'm being the bigger nerd here because I do know what I'm talking about... For the sake of this argument that is a good thing, but in the grand scheme of things (particularly the "will I get laid tonight" scheme of things) it's a very very bad thing. But let me break this down for you. You're confusing the arbitrary "Power Level" numbering system for the universal concept of latent energy, "Ki." Freeza and co. used scouters to get a readout of a fighters "Power Level." It was just a number for any character's capacity and capability of handling their Ki. Goku and Piccolo didn't have a "power level." Radditz thought they did and that's why he ended up face down in the dirt with a hole in his stomach (or a very nasty bruise depending on which version you're watching). There could be several reasons, besides just raw numbers, that Goku and Piccolo got slapped silly by Hairy McMeatymanleg. One of which may be that they were fighting an unknown style. Another may be that he was actually stronger and faster than them, numbering aside. Goku learned a lot about fighting from that fight, from his training in the afterlife, from his fight with Vegeta, and his fight with Freeza. The numbers didn't matter. What mattered was the skill of the fighter and his ability to control his Ki. That is why he defeated Freeza. That and the golden hair.
IncredibleGuy wrote:
Yes. Yes it does. Because within the Dragon Ball universe, inner energy, "Ki" is a universal property within all living beings.
Ugh... the only reason Ki is a universal property is because Toriyama made it a universal property. If he wanted to he could have also given the namekians organs and arteries, which would've explained why they bled and had throats which they could use to swallow objects. At any rate, I don't think you understand my complaint. Ki healing is overused in japanese anime, and for no good reason. Any Japanese artist who chooses to ignore this ridiculous concept gets points in my book, regardless of the quality of the rest of their work.
Actually the only reason Ki is a universal property is because of the philosophies and beliefs Dragon Ball was built around. Particularly those of Buddhism and cultural norms of the area.

And again, so are transformations and super powers. You're just picking one irrelevant and arbitrary "problem" and latching onto it like it actually holds up to any sort of scrutiny.
Last edited by Innagadadavida on Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Ranking

Post by Godo » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:52 am

IncredibleGuy wrote: I don't want to be the Dragon Ball nerd here, but you don't know what you're talking about. The only time powerlevels were seen as unreliable in the Dragon Ball universe was when characters made a conscious effort to hide, or suppress them. I'm talking about characters being thousands of points weaker than other characters without suppression and not getting completely demolished despite the fact that Goku and Piccolo together were getting the crap knocked out of them by somebody with a powerlevel only a couple hundred points larger than their own. But hey, if you wanna convince me otherwise, I left a whole bunch of examples for Miracles to explain just a few posts earlier.
I think that you are forgetting about Radditz's comment on Goku's Kamehameha and Piccolo's Makankosappo. That's what it was all about, underestimating the fighter.
Ordinary fighters in the universe who had 1500 in powerlevel, didn't shoot blasts over 1500. But those who controlled their powerlevel, could shoot blasts up to three times their strength.
Also, scouters don't show the reserves fighters have (Radditz: "Do you still have those powers left?").
Aaaaaaaaaaand thus it explains why it varies between different characters how long they stand against an opponent.
This is even shown in the 23rd Budokai, when everyone are astonished over that Goku fired a Super Kamehameha and wasn't even tired. Their natural power sensing didn't show that Goku had much more power within him.
Kuririn is shown to be able to feel those reserves much later, in the Cell arc.
Thus, your question now has a great explanation.

IncredibleGuy wrote: Ugh... the only reason Ki is a universal property is because Toriyama made it a universal property. If he wanted to he could have also given the namekians organs and arteries, which would've explained why they bled and had throats which they could use to swallow objects. At any rate, I don't think you understand my complaint. Ki healing is overused in japanese anime, and for no good reason. Any Japanese artist who chooses to ignore this ridiculous concept gets points in my book, regardless of the quality of the rest of their work.
It's because of that Ki is a part of the Asian culture. The Chinese and Japanese especially. That's why it's used so often, because of that it's a normal and spiritual thing for them. That's your good reason there.
So for you to disregard a manga artist for using ki is just...thickheaded and not thought through.


So, my advice to you is: Before telling people that they don't know what they are talking about, make sure you know what you are talking about.

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Re: Dragon Ball Ranking

Post by Sebastian (SB) » Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:17 am

I just love the One Piece vs. Dragon Ball debates. It's hilarious. I've never felt that OP, in particular, dragged on for too long because I was having too much fun reading it. Even if an arc went on for a long while (Water 7/ Enies Lobby and Skypiea), I just loved the attention to characters, backstory, detail, and world structure that Oda gave to each of the islands the Straw Hats went on. It's like going into a different world each time and it never gets boring for me. Despite all of that, I do agree that the action really lacks the style of Dragon Ball and even its competitor/rival title, Naruto. I adore both titles and would never place one over the other. Heck, even the authors agree. Can't we all be friends?
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Re: Dragon Ball Ranking

Post by Big Momma » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:31 pm

Thanos6 wrote:Castle of Cagliostro (yes, I know that's Lupin III, but I like it a lot more than most of the rest of the Lupin stuff)...
Agreed. That's one of my all-time favorites, too.
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Re: Dragon Ball Ranking

Post by IncredibleGuy » Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:56 pm

I started a new topic for this
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Re: Dragon Ball Ranking

Post by Cowboy Dev » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:22 am

Dragon Ball is my number one when I really think about it. Never have I dedicated as much time and research to one series as this one.
Now let's see... I think my rank go:

1. Dragon Ball
2. Cowboy Bebop
3. Urusei Yatsura
4. FullMetal Alchemist
5. Neon Genesis Evangelion
6. Lupin the 3rd
7. Studio Ghibli films
8. Tenchi Muyo
(Some others I can't think of at the moment...)
A Dragon Ball/Urusei Yatsura crossover would be awesome.
Having Toshio Furukawa balance between Piccolo and Ataru would be hilarious.

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Re: Dragon Ball Ranking

Post by Goku100xKamehameha » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:37 am

1.Dragon Ball Z 8)
2.Naruto (including Shippuden!)
3.Dragon Ball
4.Yu-Gi-Oh!
5.Yu Yu Hakusho
6.Slam Dunk
7.Dragon Ball GT
8.Ikki Tousen :P
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Did you like the plot? I don't even sure there is a plot? I also watched that show but only for special purpose :P

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Re: Dragon Ball Ranking

Post by SuperSaiyan3Goku » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:43 am

I like to have a variety in my Anime. If it was nothing but Dragonball, I think I'd go insane. Since Dragonball is an older Anime, I've slowly been getting into other Anime, Soul Eater, Bleach, Keroro Gunso (Sgt Frog) and Fullmetal Alchemist to name a few.
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Re: Dragon Ball Ranking

Post by Piccolo Daimaoh » Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:33 am

Goku100xKamehameha wrote: Did you like the plot? I don't even sure there is a plot? I also watched that show but only for special purpose :P
Yes, the Anime is really fanservice-y. So if you're a girl or someone who's not in to that stuff, you'll definately find it annoying. That is why I recommend the Manga, which is called "Battle Vixens" in English. It is less focused on fanservice and more on the actual plot. I don't normally like the Manga of a series better than its Anime counterpart, but here I'll have to make an exception.



In regards to One Piece vs. Dragon Ball, they both dragged on too much and I also felt that both series' authors were making up shit as they went along.

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Re: Dragon Ball Ranking

Post by Kendamu » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:10 pm

IncredibleGuy wrote:
Innagadadavida wrote: That was the whole point. You're agreeing with the show. The numbers were introduced in DBZ as a way to give a little perspective and to introduce a different league of fighters who believed the use of technology could be used to determine the outcome of a fight (which by the third episode is proven to be a faulty philosophy). As we move along in the story we see that that technology is unreliable and that our heroes use their skill and spirit to win fights without relying on any sort of technical readout. At the beginning of the Freeza arc the reason one fighter could completely dominate another if they had a higher powerlevel is because their philosophy on battle power was that it was a static concept. It simply did not occur to them that there was any tangible way to control their ki in the way Goku or Captain Ginyu was able to. The concept of "Battle Powers" served its purpose and was quickly done away with. It was nonsense. That was the entire purpose of its existence within the story.
Raditz died because he relied on Battle Powers.

Vegeta and Nappa tossed their Scouters away, learning from Raditz's failure.

The Freeza Scouts that came across Krillin and Gohan died because they relied on Battle Powers.

Kui died because he relied on Battle Powers.

Vegeta and the Earthlings (that should be the name of a band) got the upper hand collecting Dragonballs, staying out of sight, and ambushing bad guys because Muuri and Vegeta broke all of the Scouters available at the time.

Jees, Baata, and Reacoom all were defeated and killed because of their reliance on Scouters.

Ginyu made a bad decision in switching bodies with Goku because he relied on a Battle Power instead of seeing the technique behind that power and it lead to his defeat.

Freeza, who relied on Battle Powers, didn't have a Scouter when fighting Goku (it would've broke, anyway). At certain points, Goku had the upper-hand because Freeza had to rely on sight.

In the Jinzouningen arc, Vegeta stated that you can't reduce Saiyans to mere numbers.

In the Jump Special, Vegeta corrected Tarble by telling him not to rely on his Scouter.

Battle Powers served two purposes in telling the story:

1) To show how much the characters had grown by comparing enemy BPs, which were static, over time.

2) To show that the backwater holistic methods that the Earthlings used were, by some miracle, superior to the technological methods that had become standard throughout the galaxy.

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Re: Dragon Ball Ranking

Post by SonEric84 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:58 pm

Dragon Ball is definitely my number one, but it's not really just my number one, but favorite series in general. I'm actually not a huge anime fan, but the ones I enjoy I really like a lot. Others incude: Yu Yu Hakusho, Iria Zeiram: The Animation, Bamboo Blade, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Tenchi Muyo, and Bamboo Blade.
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