Gohan vs. Dabura

[Son_Gohan]

When you have enough amount of power, anger is the primary factor to reach SSJ. If you can't control it you can't reach SSJ.

Second of all, his problems with reaching SSJ2 was mainly because of that it normally only requires training.
With Gohan's power bursts, he could only reach that point with anger, but he held back and tried not to let loose of all his anger.
Android 16: "Gohan, let go of your fear and let loose all your anger, for Earth and the animals I love". Well, I think he said that to an extent.
Gohan was afraid of bringing too much destruction and death. That was all it was to it.

There is difference between his anger as a normal emotion, and the anger that draws out his dormant power.

What separates the two is control. It's only when Gohan loses control of himself can he actually gain power from it, not the other way around. It's like when Gohan is facing Buu's ball, he states that he is angry, but it still didn't make any difference. Now back in the tournament, when Videl is facing Spopovich would be an example of anger that is capable of drawing out his power. He lost control of himself there, and I don't believe he transformed because he wanted to, it was a result of his anger.

[Godo]

Where do you put Android 16's comment then? Gohan knew what was coming. He was holding back, the same when he was in the Kamehameha duel. I wish I had my manga here so I could put out some quotes.

Also, against Buu's ball (Buu lost his other in an accident, harr harr harr) he wasn't angry enough. He was basically saying "I'm angry, but it doesn't work". And that was because of him being angry in a wrong way.

I would say that Gohan's anger when Videl was beaten was: Anger + Vengeful
When the Cell Jrs beat his friends up and killed Android 16 : Anger + Vengeful
When Cargo was killed: Anger + Vengeful
When Freeza almost killed Kuririn: Anger + Vengeful
When Buu was about to be released: Anger + Not Vengeful

Thus, there is not enough amount of furiosity to transform for him, since his base power is too low to do it whenever he wants.

[Senzu_Bean]

I honestly believe the reason he didn't went beyond Super Saiyan against Dabura and then Majin Buu was a mental/psychological thing rather than something to do with power. He was behind too much stress at the time which prevented him to ascend beyond Super Saiyan. Goku's comment towards him after give him the Senzu imply this.

[Son_Gohan]

Where do you put Android 16's comment then? Gohan knew what was coming. He was holding back, the same when he was in the Kamehameha duel. I wish I had my manga here so I could put out some quotes.

Also, against Buu's ball (Buu lost his other in an accident, harr harr harr) he wasn't angry enough. He was basically saying "I'm angry, but it doesn't work". And that was because of him being angry in a wrong way.

I would say that Gohan's anger when Videl was beaten was: Anger + Vengeful
When the Cell Jrs beat his friends up and killed Android 16 : Anger + Vengeful
When Cargo was killed: Anger + Vengeful
When Freeza almost killed Kuririn: Anger + Vengeful
When Buu was about to be released: Anger + Not Vengeful

Thus, there is not enough amount of furiosity to transform for him, since his base power is too low to do it whenever he wants.

I didn't say he wasn't holding back, but there is always a trigger needed for him to access his dormant power, it's not something he can willingly access on his own. The fact that he is holding back means that he is still in control over himself, unless he lets go, it's not going to work for him.

That's why I don't believe his ability to transform into SSJ2 in the Buu saga is dependent on his emotions, because when he transforms against Kibito, there is no trigger at all, he's not explicitly burning with rage. That time, he does it seemingly at will, and it doesn't connect in comparison to previous instances. When I look at it that way, I can separate both his SSJ2 form and his dormant power as two different things.

Accessing his dormant power requires anger, while accessing his SSJ2 form does not. Which is why Goku simply tells him to get angry, not to transform into a SSJ2, the two are not synonymous at that point.

[hleV]

To be honest, I am sure that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura (and Fat Buu).

• Gohan shown his ability to transform into SSJ2 in World Tournament.
• Goku said that Dabura is about equal to Cell (not sure Perfect or Super Perfect form), and later he admitted to have underestimated Dabura.
• Gohan had SSJ2-like hair.
• Gohan not having electricity in his aura can be explained in several ways:
  • since Gohan's power wasn't fully restored by Kibito, Gohan's SSJ2 couldn't yet produce electric sparks;
  • Akira Toriyama simply forgot to add them.
• Was stated in Daizenshuu that Gohan was SSJ2.

These arguments, in fact, beat the prediction of "no electric sparks - no SSJ2".

[Kaboom]

Gohan shown his ability to transform into SSJ2 in World Tournament.

Which in no way proves that he could still do it later.

Goku said that Dabura is about equal to Cell (not sure Perfect or Super Perfect form), and later he admitted to have underestimated Dabura.

Goku's comparison to Cell was a VERY loose one. He just said something to the effect that Dabra was "probably about as strong" as Cell. Which even if we assume he meant Perfect Cell, could be anywhere in a very wide range of power. Plus, Goku later mentioned that Dabra was better than he thought because Dabra was demonstrating use of magic. Not necessarily that he showed any significantly larger amount of power than before.

Gohan had SSJ2-like hair.

Gohan's hair looks practically identical in both SSj and SSj2 by this point.

Since Gohan's power wasn't fully restored by Kibito, Gohan's SSJ2 couldn't yet produce electric sparks;

If he was THAT weakened, he wouldn't be able to transform at all. The Super Saiyan auras change with the stages, not through the amount of power. For example, look at Super Gotenks here:



Through fusion, he's more than likely at least as strong, or stronger, than Goku and Vegeta at Super Saiyan 2. It's even possible he's almost as strong as a Super Saiyan 3. But he's still got a normal Super Saiyan aura, because he's only at Super Saiyan 1.

Akira Toriyama simply forgot to add them.

Impossible. Toriyama consistently drew lightning bolts for not only SSj2 Gohan before, but SSj2 Goku and Vegeta multiple times over the course of the Boo arc. Heck, Goku and Vegeta's SSj2-level fight was going on while Gohan tried to attack Boo's egg. The visual differences in Gohan were undoubtedly intentional.

Was stated in Daizenshuu that Gohan was SSJ2.

The Daizenshuu made a mistake. The books aren't infallible.

[hleV]

Gohan had SSJ2-like hair (spikier, standing more, single strand on the forehead unlike SSJ1's) and he also fought well against Dabura even though he was a lot weaker than in Cell Games saga. SSJ1 couldn't have done that, unless you can prove me wrong.

Note that Akira Toriyama drawn sparks when Vegetto transformed. He also drawn them in Neko Majin manga for SSJ1.

[rereboy]

Gohan had SSJ2-like hair (spikier, standing more, single strand on the forehead unlike SSJ1's) and he also fought well against Dabura even though he was a lot weaker than in Cell Games saga. SSJ1 couldn't have done that, unless you can prove me wrong.

SSJ1 Gohan was stronger than SSJ1 Goku at the Cell Games. If he had fought seriously agaisnt Cell at the time, even without SSJ 2, he would be able to stand up and put up a good fight agaisnt fully powered Cell (before the zenkai) but he wouldn`t win.

Since I consider Dabura to be around fully powered Cell (before the zenkai) since Goku stated that Dabura was around Cell`s power and fully powered Cell was the strongest Cell he saw in person, and I also consider SSJ1 Gohan to be a litlle weaker than his SSJ1 self at the Cell Games, looking at the Dabura and Gohan fight, its perfectly logical (power wise) that Gohan is at SSJ1 since Dabura always had the upper hand, despite Gohan being fighting seriously.

But if we consider Dabura to be around Cell power after the Zenkai, then the SSJ1 doesn`t make sense. Only the SSJ2 does.

So, power wise, it makes sense to consider that Gohan was at SSJ1 or SSJ2, depending on how strong you consider Dabura. Dabura around fully powered Cell`s power -> SS1 makes sense. Dabura around Cell`s power after the zenkai -> SSJ2 makes sense.

So, we will have to look at the visual evidence of the manga:
- The hair. Since Toriyama drew Gohan´s hair exactly the same way while in SSJ1 and SSJ2 in the tournament where Gohan turned SSJ2, the hair is an inconsistent and unreliable source of evidence for the SSJ2 state.
- The Sparks. Every other known instant where a SSJ2 was present there were sparks drawn, including SSJ2s who were fighting pretty much at the same time as Gohan was fighting Buu and Dabura. So I would call this source reliable.

So going by the only reliable source of visual evidences, we must conclude that there are more arguments in favor of Gohan being SSJ1 and just being unable to turn SSJ2 because of psycological reasons (like the fact that he doesn`t want to be like he was when he fought Cell, cocky, arrogant and putting people`s lives in jeopardy. He even says out loud in the manga that he doesn`t want to be like he was at that time) than arguments in favor of him being SSJ2.

Note that Akira Toriyama drawn sparks when Vegetto transformed. He also drawn them in Neko Majin manga for SSJ1.

Toriyama also drew sparks when Nappa focused his energy. Was he a SSJ2? No. Those are normal signs of focusing energy that the author uses like in the Nappa case. SSJ2 has constant sparks all the time. In Vegetto case, they only appeared when he focused his energy making them normal sparks which have nothing to do with SSJ2 but that show us that Vegetto does focus an impressive amount of power.

Neko majin is a full gag manga. It isn`t to be taken seriously.

[Bussani]

Gohan had SSJ2-like hair (spikier, standing more, single strand on the forehead unlike SSJ1's)

As rereboy said, Gohan's hair at the tournament had the single strand on the forehead for both SSJ1 and SSJ2, just to confuse us. It's pretty much impossible to tell from the hair alone at that point.

[Savage68]

Toriyama also drew sparks when Nappa focused his energy. Was he a SSJ2? No. Those are normal signs of focusing energy that the author uses like in the Nappa case. SSJ2 has constant sparks all the time. In Vegetto case, they only appeared when he focused his energy making them normal sparks which have nothing to do with SSJ2 but that show us that Vegetto does focus an impressive amount of power.

But Nappa was so far ahead of SSj 2 that it'd be ridiculous to use his case as an example. Majin Vegeta having lightning in his aura as a SSj 1(in Babidi's ship) is a good example for why Toriyama isn't as consistent with SSj attributes as people think.

[Kaboom]

Obviously, yes, Toriyama has used them to simply demonstrate power in other cases. Yet that doesn't negate their place within the transformations. The lightning bolts in the aura are not exclusive to Super Saiyan 2, but they are a defining trait of it.

All Super Saiyan 2's have lightning bolts, but not all lightning bolts mean Super Saiyan 2. Just like all Saiyans have black hair, but not all black-haired people are Saiyans.

[rereboy]

Toriyama also drew sparks when Nappa focused his energy. Was he a SSJ2? No. Those are normal signs of focusing energy that the author uses like in the Nappa case. SSJ2 has constant sparks all the time. In Vegetto case, they only appeared when he focused his energy making them normal sparks which have nothing to do with SSJ2 but that show us that Vegetto does focus an impressive amount of power.

But Nappa was so far ahead of SSj 2 that it'd be ridiculous to use his case as an example. Majin Vegeta having lightning in his aura as a SSj 1(in Babidi's ship) is a good example for why Toriyama isn't as consistent with SSj attributes as people think.

In the manga, from the time Vegeta entered the ship, to the time he started fighting Goku, he only showed sparks 2 times.

The first time was shortly before he started fighting Goku, when Vegeta was strongly resisting Babidi command to not let Kaioshin and Gohan go. These sparks can either be from focusing energy (like Vegetto and other fighters) or from Vegeta starting to enter the SSJ2 state to resist the Babidi`s commands and then depowering, because the sparks aren`t constant in his aura.

Here is the panel where this happens (sorry about the quality).



The second time was when he powered to SSJ2 to start the fight with Goku. After that, the sparks remained.

So I really don`t see any inconsistency regarding the sparks. They are, at the very least, much more reliable than the hair.

[Savage68]

The inconsistency came in when a SSj 1 had lightning in their aura(besides Vegetto)...

That alone proves that Toriyama's art style isn't as consistent as some people are purporting.

[rereboy]

The inconsistency came in when a SSj 1 had lightning in their aura(besides Vegetto)...

That alone proves that Toriyama's art style isn't as consistent as some people are purporting.

No, because like I said it needs to have constant sparks in his aura.

As proven by other moments in the series, not only SSJ2s can produce sparks when powering up or using an attack.

But constant sparks in the aura, no matter what they are doing, is a different matter.

[Savage68]

As proven by other moments in the series, not only SSJ2s can produce sparks when powering up or using an attack.

...You substantiated this by using Nappa as an example , and Super Vegetto still had lightning in his aura, regardless of circumstances. It doesn't matter if it was for an entire chapter or 1/4th of a panel.

SSj 1s had lightning in their aura, for no apparent reason, other than magical properties. So unless you want to explain how Nappa's focused energy is somehow equitable to Majin Vegeta's, which is somehow equitable to Vegetto's, it proves that SSj auras aren't so set in stone.

[hleV]

The Daizenshuu made a mistake. The books aren't infallible.

Why would anyone believe in everything else that is written in Daizenshuu or SEG?

SEG stated that SSJ2 is a 2x multiplier of SSJ and SSJ3 is a 4x multiplier of SSJ2. Maybe that was a mistake too?
Toriyama approved it, didn't he? He approved that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura. Except the sparks, it completely makes sense.

[rereboy]

As proven by other moments in the series, not only SSJ2s can produce sparks when powering up or using an attack.

...You substantiated this by using Nappa as an example , and Super Vegetto still had lightning in his aura, regardless of circumstances. It doesn't matter if it was for an entire chapter or 1/4th of a panel.

SSj 1s had lightning in their aura, for no apparent reason, other than magical properties. So unless you want to explain how Nappa's focused energy is somehow equitable to Majin Vegeta's, which is somehow equitable to Vegetto's, it proves that SSj auras aren't so set in stone.

Nappa was the example I could think up at the top of my head .

But even if you don`t consider those sparks as normal powering up or focusing sparks, there is a simple answer still which I already provided but you didn`t comment:

These sparks can either be from focusing energy (like Vegetto and other fighters) or from Vegeta starting to enter the SSJ2 state to resist the Babidi`s commands and then depowering, because the sparks aren`t constant in his aura.

Vegeta by that time can go in and out of SSJ2 as he pleases, so it would be normal to enter the beginning of the SSJ2 form when he was resisting furiously to Babidi`s commands and he got angry but without maintaining the form.
Only when Goku used his SSJ2 did he completly enter the SSJ2 with all the power that he could maintain.

The Daizenshuu made a mistake. The books aren't infallible.

Why would anyone believe in everything else that is written in Daizenshuu or SEG?

SEG stated that SSJ2 is a 2x multiplier of SSJ and SSJ3 is a 4x multiplier of SSJ2. Maybe that was a mistake too?
Toriyama approved it, didn't he? He approved that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura. Except the sparks, it completely makes sense.

As far as we can tell, despite his so called approval, we can not be sure that everything in there is completely his opinion. Signing off something is very different from writing it yourself, and since Toriyama is known for not caring much about these things, we simply can not be sure.

I would only believe it if I heard straight from him (in a real interview) that it was his intention to make him SSJ2 in the story because I simply can not be sure that what is in the Daizenshuu is completly his opinion.

[Savage68]

Vegeta by that time can go in and out of SSJ2 as he pleases, so it would be normal to enter the beginning of the SSJ2 form when he was resisting furiously to Babidi`s commands and he got angry but without maintaining the form.

He could go SSj 2 before that. Though, it makes no sense for someone to be flickering in-between transformations like that. I've never seen such a thing in the series. And I did comment on it before.

Only when Goku used his SSJ2 did he completly enter the SSJ2 with all the power that he could maintain.

The problem with this is that Goku wouldn't have been so damn shocked because SSj 2 Vegeta is simply using more power than the SSj 2 Vegeta that was in Babidi's ship. I thought the premise to this was that SSj 1 Vegeta had lightning in his aura; I didn't even realize you thought he actually was SSj 2 there.

SEG stated that SSJ2 is a 2x multiplier of SSJ and SSJ3 is a 4x multiplier of SSJ2. Maybe that was a mistake too?

If it said somewhere that they're universally applicable(which I'm pretty sure it didn't), then...yes. Unless you believe SSj 3 Goku is 400x stronger than base Goku, or that SSj 2 kid Gohan only got a 2x increase in power.

[rereboy]

If those sparks are due to entering a SSJ2 stage, I think that at that moment, even if that is true, Vegeta wasn`t going all out. That`s why he didn`t fully turn SSJ2 and maintained the form.
And thats also why Goku was shocked later on, because at that time Vegeta really was going all out and Goku hadn`t realized how strong he really was until that moment.

[Savage68]

That still begs the question as to why the lightning looks different than normal, as well.