Piccolo vs. 17

[Savage68]

Frieza hurt Goku the same way Perfect Cell hurt SSj 2 Gohan.

[HazelMystic]

Freeza hurt Goku the same way Perfect Cell hurt SSj 2 Gohan.

LoLz. Nah... Haha. Perfect Cell was only a few paces above his Cell Jrs, and Gohan killed those with single blows. Goku and Frieza fought on much more even terms. Frieza was able to evade Goku's Kamehameha after it had made contact...he actually matched it.

[Savage68]

Perfect Cell was only a few paces above his Cell Jrs

The Cell Jrs were equivalent to the heavily suppressed Perfect Cell that fought Vegeta and Trunks. The Cell that fought Gohan was not only powered-up, but he was using 100% of his power. A few paces? I think not.

Goku and Freeza fought on much more even terms. Freeza was able to evade Goku's Kamehameha after it had made contact...he actually matched it.

They fought "evenly" in the beginning of their match because Goku was stalling.

And you do realize that Frieza used a barrier against the Kamehameha, right? Had nothing at all to do with matching or overpowering it.

[HazelMystic]

Perfect Cell was only a few paces above his Cell Jrs

The Cell Jrs were equivalent to the heavily suppressed Perfect Cell that fought Vegeta and Trunks. The Cell that fought Gohan was not only powered-up, but he was using 100% of his power. A few paces? I think not.

Goku and Freeza fought on much more even terms. Freeza was able to evade Goku's Kamehameha after it had made contact...he actually matched it.

They fought "evenly" in the beginning of their match because Goku was stalling.

And you do realize that Freeza used a barrier against the Kamehameha, right? Had nothing at all to do with matching or overpowering it.

It's debatable since there are no power level listings after the Frieza saga. Many fan-made power level estimations state that Cell is stronger than his Cell Jr's...

Secondly, I still fail to see how taking hits (strong enough to cause the level of observable of damage) is somehow just something Goku just would allow to happen. Unless Goku has a BDSM fetish, (perhaps someone should write a fanfic about that), there is no reason to mime that sort of "dude, my stomach just got pwned" keeling. 120 vs. 150 is not a HUGE difference. If Goku and Frieza were comparable to SSJ2 Gohan vs. Cell in terms of damage, and damage is reflected by your strength/power level... and you state that the Cell Jr's are even with Perfect Cell, yet Gohan killed them with one blow... that would mean that Goku could kill Frieza with one hit. Goku would have more reason to end the fight in such a way to escape his own death...yet the manga fight reflects this differently. It shows Goku having to grit teeth, to an extent to fight his foe...and this becomes easier to do when Frieza's BP drops, but not before.

[mAcChaos]

Gohan VS Cell: Gohan, after Cell powered up completely, dealt devastating damage to Cell with only two blows... Cell was in disbelief.

Goku VS Freeza: they were tearing each other apart until the last second.

[HazelMystic]

Yeah... Frieza definitely closed the power gap with his skills in the beginning: he was able to turn the tables every time. Pretty even fight overall I'd say. Cell was a lost cause after SSJ2 Gohan made his debut, that is, until he came back powered up.

[Savage68]

Many fan-made power level estimations state that Cell is stronger than his Cell Jr's...

Many of those listings are also completely ass-backwards(even ignoring the fact that sentou-ryoku doesn't even exist after Goku's 150,000,000). There are many different levels to Cell's strength, so that's a competley ambiguous statement.

Secondly, I still fail to see how taking hits (strong enough to cause the level of observable of damage) is somehow just something Goku just would allow to happen.

Do you not know what a plot device is? How stupid would it be for Frieza to power-up right into 100% just to do no damage? It's stated that Frieza isn't a challenge for Goku(before his power started to drop), and Goku only humored him for the sake of leaving his pride shattered.

120 vs. 150 is not a HUGE difference.

...What? It's a difference of 30,000,000. Even a small advantage in this series allows for godstomping.

If Goku and Freeza were comparable to SSJ2 Gohan vs. Cell

No, just...no.

Goku VS Freeza: they were tearing each other apart until the last second.

You must've been watching the wrong fight, br0.

[HazelMystic]

Many fan-made power level estimations state that Cell is stronger than his Cell Jr's...

Many of those listings are also completely ass-backwards(even ignoring the fact that sentou-ryoku doesn't even exist after Goku's 150,000,000). There are many different levels to Cell's strength, so that's a competley ambiguous statement.

Secondly, I still fail to see how taking hits (strong enough to cause the level of observable of damage) is somehow just something Goku just would allow to happen.

Do you not know what a plot device is? How stupid would it be for Freeza to power-up right into 100% just to do know damage? It's stated that Freeza isn't a challenge for Goku(before his power started to drop), and Goku only humored him for the sake of leaving his pride shattered.

120 vs. 150 is not a HUGE difference.

...What? It's a difference of 30,000,000. Even a small advantage in this series allows for godstomping.

If Goku and Freeza were comparable to SSJ2 Gohan vs. Cell

No, just...no.

Goku VS Freeza: they were tearing each other apart until the last second.

You must've been watching the wrong fight, br0.

Well you stated that Cell Jr's were equal to Cell... I am assuming you mean Perfect Cell. It may or may not be reasonable that they are stronger are weaker, since those battle powers are not noted after the Frieza saga. Regarding power levels, DBZ seems to operate more from PROPORTIONAL system, not a differential one. Meaning that 18,000 vs. 24,000 is similar to 180 vs. 240. I probably should have chosen my words more carefully. A small power advantage can definitely mean a lot, but it does not mean the stronger is invincible...DBZ warriors are very skilled, and thus it follows that they should be able to take advantage of this small advantage to the fullest extent. Heck, if Goku had Frieza by the ropes as much as you say, he could have restrained him...but that's not what actually happened. Goku is shown at one point to be out of breath by Frieza's attack, so I think it follows that he's not following too far behind Goku. As far as the whole plot device thing goes, that's WHY Frieza was made to be so close to Goku's strength...so as to logically make the fight more even. This is what's demonstrated in the manga additionally.

[Savage68]

Well you stated that Cell Jr's were equal to Cell... I am assuming you mean Perfect Cell.

I was referring to Perfect Cell:

The Cell Jrs were equivalent to the heavily suppressed Perfect Cell that fought Vegeta and Trunks.

A small power advantage can definitely mean a lot, but it does not mean the stronger is invincible

I've never argued against this idea.

if Goku had Freeza by the ropes as much as you say, he could have restrained him...but that's not what actually happened.

...What?

Goku is shown at one point to be out of breath by Freeza's attack, so I think it follows that he's not following too far behind Goku.

Frieza is shown to be utterly inferior to Goku, after Goku lost a portion of his power.

As far as the whole plot device thing goes, that's WHY Freeza was made to be so close to Goku's strength

No, that's why it looked like Frieza was close to Goku's strength. Later, we see(and I posted already) that Goku was humoring the poor bastard.

[mAcChaos]

The gap still wasn't THAT large, as it was between Gohan and Cell. Cell could've hit Gohan with his most powerful attack and it would've done nothing (before he came back). Freeza definitely could hurt Goku.

[Savage68]

Why do you keep stating the obvious?

[Onikage725]

Wouldn't it be more fair to compare Goku and Freeza to Cell and Trunks? In Freeza's case, his flaw was unstable and draining ki (similar to the drawbacks of SSJ3) rather than a speed decrease, but otherwise the fights are sort of comparable. Trunks powers up into an unstable and untested form and appears to have an advantage until his opponent points out that he's too slow. Freeza powers up into an unstable and unfair form and appears to have an advantage until his opponent points out that he's running out of power.

In Freeza's case, the phrase "the candle that burns the brightest also burns out the quickest" may apply. Freeza knowledge of his higher forms, and had probably used them at least to spar with his father (and brother if one acknowledges him). Goku likely didn't know the depths of his new powers yet, and was pacing himself. So, while Goku had a deeper reservoir, he wasn't using as much power actively. He had to manage a fight against an unpredictible foe and still somehow escape a dying planet. So, he had to play it safe. Freeza was desperate to kill Goku, and felt he could weather the planet's destruction. So he went all out from the word go. Hence his early succes against the more measured Goku.

[mAcChaos]

Why do you keep stating the obvious?

That's what it seems like you're arguing against... unless your mountains of quotes have obscured your point.

[Savage68]

^A useful bit of info for you, my sir:

wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

[Hero 004]

Not really, but it gets called "Gekiretsu-Kodan" (Violent Light Bullet) in the video games.

edit: Wait, seems Daizenshuu 2 calls it "Chou-Bakuretsu-Maha" (Super Explosive Demon Wave)...though Daizenshuu 7 and several video games use this name for the attack Piccolo uses to blow the city away during his match with Goku at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai.

Thanks, that's a bit strange but at least making reference to a previous attack tells that it's the same style. Yeah the "Makosen" thing always threw me off a bit too, but I suppose I like that name for similar reasons.

[Dayspring]

Well you stated that Cell Jr's were equal to Cell... I am assuming you mean Perfect Cell.

I was referring to Perfect Cell:

The Cell Jrs were equivalent to the heavily suppressed Perfect Cell that fought Vegeta and Trunks.

But that's not the case. The Cell Juniors were equal to Cell Games SSJ Vegeta and Trunks.

[Savage68]

...Yeah. I said that already. Heavily Suppressed Perfect Cell, the Cell Jrs and (Cell Games)SSj Vegeta and Trunks are all evidenced to be equals.

[Onikage725]

Wait, supressed Perfect Cell whupped Vegeta's ass. The Cell Jr's had to be weaker, unless Vegeta's extra day of training brought on a significant power up.

[Savage68]

You got it. Just like Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks got a lot stronger with their 2nd year of training, and also apparently became strong enough to not need the "shortcut" to power that USSj gives and became stronger than that.

[Xyex]

...Yeah. I said that already. Heavily Suppressed Perfect Cell, the Cell Jrs and (Cell Games)SSj Vegeta and Trunks are all evidenced to be equals.

Dayspring's point was that SSJ Vegeta and Trunks at the Cell Games would be stronger than Suppressed Perfect Cell. Obviously they knew how much power that Cell had put out and would have trained to surpass it.