"FUNimation thinks its audience is stupid" - Wait, what?

[GizmoKSX]

Now I may be going a little off topic here, but I have a question. Does enjoying The Office (US) mean that one is uncultured? Is the creation of The Office (US) a direct insult to our intelligence?

Enjoying reinterpretations, in and of itself, doesn't make one uncultured. We're discussing an anime that's a remake of a manga (which itself originally drew from Chinese legend); is the creation of the anime an insult to our intelligence by implying we're too uncultured to read the source material? I wouldn't say so; many are able to enjoy both for what they are. On that note, adaptations can be met with all sorts of responses. Take V For Vendetta. When the Wachowski brothers created their movie adaptation, the comic's writer Alan Moore was underwhelmed, feeling that his original themes and characterizations were lost or altered. Yet the comic's artist David Lloyd quite enjoyed the film's imagery. The comic and the film, while having a good deal in common, remain very different things, with different themes and notions expressed, each valid in their own ways.

On British TV in America, our culture certainly has a place for it. Monty Python left a legacy that's fairly well-known to the American mainstream culture. While not exactly prime time, Cartoon Network's late night block has culled a good following and presented us with British hilarity like The Mighty Boosh and Garth Marenghi's Darkplace. On the American take on The Office, as heavily as it may borrow from its source material, it has become its own show, its own product. And with readily available DVDs, the original British show is an easily accessible option for those who wish to pursue it. It's all right as long as there's room for both.

That availability is something we shouldn't take for granted. With Dragon Ball and other foreign shows, many of us grew up unable to find authentic products available for legitimate purchase. It was either a raw import, a bootlegged fansub, or a chopped up dub with music replaced and often sub-par voice acting, at a price tag of $20-30 for 3-4 episodes. You want the British Office? It's been on DVD in its entirety since within two years of the show's first airing. You want the Japanese Dragon Ball Z? We're just now getting a consistent, unbutchered, and affordable release Stateside.

Another part of the issue is using footage from existing source material to make another product. Our beloved DBZ Abridged falls under that banner, but it's a parody, not a replacement for the source material. Yet for years, the aforementioned options were all we had. In the VHS days, the only Dragon Ball we could legitimately buy here was a heavily modified product made to cater to a certain demographic. It wasn't an alternative to the original show; it was a replacement for it on our store shelves. When we look at something like Dragonball Evolution, we can write it off, laugh at it, enjoy it (?), whatever. It's an American product that can be seen for what it is. But when we hear Kaio's irritating dub voice, or blatant censoring (HFIL, the quote in my sig), it's far more irritating because our show's been butchered and sold back to us. We didn't order the anchovies* on our pizza, but we have to pay for them anyway.

Unfortunately, this problem hasn't been entirely contained. There's the matter of films being modified, censored, etc. to meet certain standards before movie studios will distribute and market them. And yet, all is not lost. Tarantino achieved massive success with Inglorious Basterds, a loud but lengthy film (and a remake of sorts) that uses a great deal of subtitled foreign language dialogue (save for the film having been marketed with lots of shots of Brad Pitt). Foreign films like Amélie manage to garner attention here as well. Plus, so much is available at our fingertips on the Internet that TV Nielsen ratings aren't going to be as strong a measure of popularity as they once were. So, is our culture uncultured? I wouldn't say so.

*I actually like anchovies, but this post is catered to an American demographic that stereotypically doesn't.

[the_abberration]

"Seeing their parachutes" and "Empty buildings on Sunday" seemed wierd and strange but not insulting.

I think the insult lies in the fact that someone had to have thought the audience was smart enough to think a building destroyed by aliens could be populated. With that in mind, they then have those same aliens who are: 1) supposedly here to destroy us, 2) just destroyed another planet on the way to ours, 3) and have no clue as to how our work week is scheduled, have enough concern to reassure "the audience" no one was hurt by stating that the building was empty because it's Sunday.

The bottom line is no matter how you slice it, DBZ is a fighting show where violence, destruction, and death was expected. Attempting to gloss over that aspect in any way shape or form defeated any realistic purpose.

As a comparision, it's like having Joker from Batman: TAS blow up a building. Then say "Thank heavens no one was in there!".

[Majin Buu]

I think another issue that relates to this is the lack of subtlety in the dub. The dub tends to over emphasize certain things as if we can't figure it out for ourselves. For instance, dub #16. In the Japanese version he didn't have a mechanical voice, he had a normal sounding voice, even though he is fully mechanical; but Funimation seems to think that they had to over emphasize his nature as a fully mechanical being by giving him a robotic sounding voice. Why? Another instance is dub Fat Buu. It apparently isn't enough that his behavior indicates that he's childlike, the dub has to over emphasize it by giving him a helium pitched child like voice and making him speak in the third person and in annoying baby talk when Japanese Fat Buu had a fairly deep voice and spoke fairly normally. Why?

And in the scene when everyone at the lookout learns that Gohan has died. In the Japanese version, Videl sheds a tear and says something like "this sucks". The implication is that she clearly loves Gohan even though she hasn't explicitly said it. But again, in the dub they over emphasize it by actually having her say "I love him", as if it wasn't obvious in the Japanese version. The subtlety of the scene is completely gone. Why? Seems to me they didn't think people would understand that she loves him without her actually saying it.

Funimation seems to think that its audience doesn't understand the concept of subtlety.

[jjgp1112]

If you feel like you've been treated like crap or treated as though you were stupid, just leave the situation and don't look back.

Most all marketing has some kind of 'untruth to it'.

Exactly. Every peice of advertising ever made wants you to believe that it's the best thing ever and you need to buy it because nothing else compares to it.

A lot of posters in this topic seem to think that dumbing something downs seems to imply that they think that someone's an idiot. There's plenty of movies, TV shows, books or whatever that has someone say something in a very complex way, then someone says "In english, please" or something like that. With Dragonball Z, it was possibly certain themes or just the way the show is presented that led them to believe that it wouldn't have been as accepted. At the most they underestimated their audience's ability to take in the material and like it. Personally, I am not inclined to accept testimonials from people on a message board as proof that the wide audience that this product was aimed to would have enjoyed a direct translation without any problems. The only thing we know as fact is that the product that FUNi did release became immensely popular.

Any changes that they made were made because some nut would have been offended by what they saw and they didn't want to be bothered by them, or they added something because they thought at would made the product better. Basically, they can only be accused of trying too hard to be cool and awesome (and failing miserably, depending on your personal opinion).

I never felt insulted watching the FUNi dub. I never felt like they thought I was an idiot. "Seeing their parachutes" and "Empty buildings on Sunday" seemed wierd and strange but not insulting.

THANK YOU.

It seems that a lot of people, specifically the previous two posts, are overthinking and only speaking for themselves.

[mystic trunks]

Another instance is dub Fat Buu. It apparently isn't enough that his behavior indicates that he's childlike, the dub has to over emphasize it by giving him a helium pitched child like voice and making him speak in the third person and in annoying baby talk when Japanese Fat Buu had a fairly deep voice and spoke fairly normally. Why?

This is the only thing I absolutely HATE about the dub.

[verto]

Another instance is dub Fat Buu. It apparently isn't enough that his behavior indicates that he's childlike, the dub has to over emphasize it by giving him a helium pitched child like voice and making him speak in the third person and in annoying baby talk when Japanese Fat Buu had a fairly deep voice and spoke fairly normally. Why?

I can't imagine a normal voice coming out of fat Buu's body... it would seem unnatural to me, just like King Kai sounding like he does in the Japanese version. Sure, I'm used to Schemmel's version, but I still think King Kai needs a goofy voice.

[Corporate_Nothing]

Another instance is dub Fat Buu. It apparently isn't enough that his behavior indicates that he's childlike, the dub has to over emphasize it by giving him a helium pitched child like voice and making him speak in the third person and in annoying baby talk when Japanese Fat Buu had a fairly deep voice and spoke fairly normally. Why?

This is the only thing I absolutely HATE about the dub.

Android 19's voice is no better. I can tolerate most aspects of the dub, Fat Buu and Android 19 included, but I cannot stand Stephanie Nadolny's work as Kid Goku and Kid Gohan. Not for a second do I believe that I'm listening to a child, and that weird raspy thing she does for both characters just irks the fuck out of me, especially when they cry.

[mystic trunks]

Some kids do have raspy voices like that though.

[jjgp1112]

Uh...take your dub grievances that don't have to do with the topic at hand to another thread.

[Dr. Casey]

THANK YOU.

It seems that a lot of people, specifically the previous two posts, are overthinking and only speaking for themselves.

So uh, why do you think this? I think Majin Buu made a perfectly valid, well-reasoned post that you pretty much brushed aside rather than addressed.

[caejones]

Another instance is dub Fat Buu. It apparently isn't enough that his behavior indicates that he's childlike, the dub has to over emphasize it by giving him a helium pitched child like voice and making him speak in the third person and in annoying baby talk when Japanese Fat Buu had a fairly deep voice and spoke fairly normally. Why?

But Japanese Fat Buu talked kinda child-like as well, and while his voice was "deep", it was an awkward mix of growl and squeak...

As for the covering up of death in the first two seasons: I'd just spent plenty of time with X-Men and Mortal Kombat, and was under the impression that death was perfectly acceptable material to not-hide on television, and thus took the Saban-era censorship at face value. That, and my dad somehow figured out how Zarban died and told me, further leading me to see a distinction between "death" and "another dimention". So when they dropped that whole mess in season 3, it was... mighty confusing, at any rate. -_-.
Insult toward intelligence? Eh, I dunno.

I do agree that the dub's inability to stop adding point-out-the-obvious dialogue that wasn't there to begin with falls into the category of "you're too stupid to get it until it's been stated 50 times".
As for the awkward robot voices and over-abundant crappy accents... well, were we expecting FUNi to have enough voice-actors with a variety in range lying around? .

I dunno, I still get the impression from how this discussion is going from both sides that it's more "what I don't like about the dub" vs "what doesn't bother me about the dub"... making judgment calls on the audience's tastes doesn't seem to be the same as judging the audience's intelligence.

[Sebastian (SB)]

I guess that's where the line of opinion is drawn out. We do know for a fact that FUNimation has taken liberties with their dubs, thus hence it's called a "reversioning" and not an "adaptation". Whether or not they had to go that route for the show to become popular is definitely up for debate. Considering, the popularity of the show across the globe prior, I could argue no. For me, the material stands on its own. Even with Watson, Falcouner, and the script writers long gone, there's definitely something endearing about the material.

[caejones]

I think another issue that relates to this is the lack of subtlety in the dub. The dub tends to over emphasize certain things as if we can't figure it out for ourselves.

Funimation seems to think that its audience doesn't understand the concept of subtlety.

This. Except I'd go so far as to say that the Japanese version isn't immensely subtle, either, and the FUNi dub is far less than that.
(Too bad they couldn't have pulled that card on scouters. )

[jjgp1112]

Fat Buu's Japanese voice was definitely not even close to normal. He sounded like a creepy child molester in a tan-colored overcoat.

[caejones]

Fat Buu's Japanese voice was definitely not even close to normal. He sounded like a creepy child molester in a tan-colored overcoat.

The word I always use to describe Japanese Fat Buu is "crackhead", but sure?

[Majin Buu]

I can't imagine a normal voice coming out of fat Buu's body... it would seem unnatural to me, just like King Kai sounding like he does in the Japanese version. Sure, I'm used to Schemmel's version, but I still think King Kai needs a goofy voice.

I disagree. And I'm going to paraphrase something Chris Psaros wrote on DBZ uncensored to get my point across:

"Just because he looks like a blue catfish, doesn't mean he has to sound like one".

Just because a character looks goofy doesn't necessarily mean that they have to sound goofy. It goes back to the issue of subtlety and how the dub lacks it.

And the way Japanese Fat Buu's voice sounds isn't really normal (I certainly can't imagine a normal person sounding like that), it's the way he speaks that's fairly normal.

[Blue]

He sounded like a creepy child molester in a tan-colored overcoat.

W-what? Just...what!?

[jjgp1112]

I dunno...every time I hear Fat Buu in the Japanese version, I just think of this skit from X-Play from a review of some weird DS hentai game with 12 year old girls and Adam Sessler was wearing a tan overcoat and suspiciously playing the game while sitting on the toilet

[VegettoEX]

I don't understand what's with the dub supporters asking others to not get into dub-criticize-mode, and then they turn right back around again to jump to its defense and simultaneously go on the offensive about the Japanese voice cast...

Unless you can somehow tie it into the subject at hand, this thread is not about voice casts.

[jjgp1112]

Hey, I wasn't bashing his voice at all, I was just saying what he sounds like. I actually think his Japanese voice fits.