Could Goku have really beaten Fat Buu?

[Savage68]

He accurately gauged Dabra as being in Cell's ballpark of power, proven right by SSj Gohan matching him.

He said later that Dabura was stronger than he thought, though...

[Kaboom]

He accurately gauged Dabra as being in Cell's ballpark of power, proven right by SSj Gohan matching him.

He said later that Dabura was stronger than he thought, though...

Well, only because Dabra started showing off some unexpected magic abilities.

[hleV]

Goku has a good track record for judging power in the Boo arc.

• - He sensed that Kaioshin was something special, which was true of his actual power despite him being an incompetent wuss.
  - He accurately gauged Dabra as being in Cell's ballpark of power, proven right by SSj Gohan matching him.
  - He assured Kaioshin that PuiPui and Yakon were no big deal to them, which they weren't.
  - He could tell that Fat Boo was trouble, whereas Vegeta was dismissive of him.
  - He was correct in assuming that if Vegeta couldn't beat Boo, then neither could he (with just Super Saiyan 2, at least).
  - He more-or-less accurately projected that a Super Saiyan fusion of Goten and Trunks could stand a chance against Fat Boo.
  - He knew simply swinging a sword around for a few hours hadn't made Gohan strong enough to fight Boo.
  - He knew there was no way in Hell that he and Vegeta could beat Super Boo.
  - Lastly, he knew how much power was needed from either himself of the Spirit Bomb to defeat Kid Boo.

• I'm pretty sure there's a few other instances that I'm forgetting.

[*]Probably any special fighter (like Z-fighters) could notice something special in a non-human, powerful being.
[*]If Dabra was around Perfect Cell's power, then SSJ Gohan, who was weaker than the one during Cell Games, would have had no chance.
[*]Goku wasn't bothered by Dabra, who, in his opinion, was around Cell's power, thus he wasn't bothered by beings weaker than him, that includes Pui Pui and Yakon.
[*]Fat Buu shown the ability to quickly increase his powerlevel, that's why Goku was bothered. Vegeta only cared about his fight with Goku.
[*]SSJ Gotenks' power measurement is the same thing as Fat Buu's power measurement, which we are currently arguing about.
[*]Everyone knew that they were no match for Super Buu.[/list]

You didn't prove a thing. Goku's calculations aren't perfecly correct, thus can still be considered as good guesses.

He accurately gauged Dabra as being in Cell's ballpark of power, proven right by SSj Gohan matching him.

He said later that Dabura was stronger than he thought, though...

Well, only because Dabra started showing off some unexpected magic abilities.

What magic abilities exactly? He had had already seen his spitting before.

[Savage68]

I have a feeling this discussion isn't going to go anywhere.

I think you were spot on, Kaboom.

What magic abilities exactly? He had had already seen his spitting before.

It doesn't matter. He said, "He uses magic, huh?".

[Godo]

What magic abilities exactly? He had had already seen his spitting before.

Well, he spat fire and could use magic to create a sword from nowhere. And he could probably do more than he showed in the manga.
When it came to him using ki and magic, the combination was powerful enough to put him above Perfect Cell, in my opinion. But his strength, ki-wise, was the same as Perfect Cell's.

[Xyex]

I think the fact that Goku actually killed Kid Buu with the Spirit Bomb proves he knew how strong Kid Buu was. Look at the only other two times he used the attack. Vs. Vegeta it failed because he lost some of the power to it. Vs. Freeza it failed because he didn't know how much power Freeza was holding back, and so Freeza was able to resist it.

Meanwhile, Vs. Kid Buu it worked, and Buu died.

I think that's because all of the energy that was sent by humans reached Goku at once. Getting all the energy he was able to get and launching Spirit Bomb into Kid Buu is completely different than "I got the energy that is enough to annihilate Kid Buu! Die, fucker!"

The energy didn't reach him anywhere near 'at once'.

But that's not even my point. My point is Goku knew how much power Kid Buu had, knew how much power was needed to beat him, because he knew when he had enough power in the Spirit Bomb to do so. Thus, as he knows what it takes to beat Buu, and he never says he was wrong that he had the power to do so, he was strong enough to beat Buu on his own.

• If Dabra was around Perfect Cell's power, then SSJ Gohan, who was weaker than the one during Cell Games, would have had no chance.

Why not? SSJ Kid Gohan at the Cell Games was already as strong as, or stronger than, Perfect Cell. Plus, Gohan was having trouble in the fight, indicating that he was weaker than Dabura. Beyond this, he says he's 'about as strong as' Cell, not that they have exactly equal powers. Which means that Dabura could be slightly weaker than Perfect Cell. It works out just fine.

[smiley]

Which he could have, if not for the unexpected power drain.

Did he even suffer any power drain at all before he tried to revv up...?

If not, is it at least safe to assume a living Goku couldn't beat Fat Buu?

[Savage68]

SSJ Kid Gohan at the Cell Games was already as strong as, or stronger than, Perfect Cell.

That Gohan didn't even have a definitive advantage on the suppressed Perfect Cell he fought. When Cell powers up to his max, it's obvious from everyone's reactions that he was stronger than they ever imagined.

Plus, Gohan was having trouble in the fight, indicating that he was weaker than Dabura.

I think it's the opposite. Dabura had nothing but magic tricks to throw at Gohan, and all of them were for naught. His goal was to inflict damage, yet he couldn't even do that, and went for a OHKO. Dabura even shot a blast that hit Gohan directly, and it didn't even leave scratches. From that, it seems implied (to me, at least) that Gohan was depicted as the stronger one in that fight.

This is one of the reasons I'm leaning more toward the "Gohan was SSj 2" side, despite the fact that he's clearly drawn as a SSj 1.

[hleV]

Well, he spat fire and could use magic to create a sword from nowhere.

You mean spat fire (if you can call it magic) only, because Dabura took the sword after Goku's line. So, all in all, Dabura was better than Goku had thought because he could spit fire? That's ridiculous.

[Godo]

Well, he spat fire and could use magic to create a sword from nowhere.

You mean spat fire (if you can call it magic) only, because Dabura took the sword after Goku's line. So, all in all, Dabura was better than Goku had thought because he could spit fire? That's ridiculous.

Eh, yeah. Included the whole fight that we didn't see (I mean, the part of the fight that wasn't shown in the panels), yeah, Goku could well have made an accurate notion, that included all the abilities we didn't see.
That, and that Dabura's fighting was skilled, more skilled than Gohan's to add. Otherwise Gohan wouldn't have to struggle.

Also, when I try to help out in a discussion, I find it sad that you call my theory "ridiculous". I don't know what kind of problems you have in you private life or whatever, but don't throw that crap at me.

[Savage68]

That, and that Dabura's fighting was skilled, more skilled than Gohan's to add.

You know that Dabura was only using underhanded attacks for the entire fight, right? Gohan brushed all of them off, and only struggled at the end because he was taken by surprise.

Dabura was just garbage. He couldn't even inflict any damage on his opponent, when that was his one and only goal.

[Godo]

He couldn't even inflict any damage on his opponent, when that was his one and only goal.

Neither did Gohan! That's the beautiful part of my theory. In the end of the fight, Gohan was left with damaged clothes, and Dabura without any scratch. Gohan was surprised over Dabura's attacks during the whole fight, whilst Dabura didn't even flinch once. The fight was in Dabura's favor.

[HazelMystic]

Interesting topic. Logically speaking: "could have beaten" translates to me as = having the capacity to. This doesn't equal "would have beaten".

Next, operational definitions...

If we are going to approach this, we need to define powers a bit...


Fat Boo splits into two segments: Evil Boo and Mr. Boo, with Evil Boo receiving a larger portion of the power... Mr. Boo was freed and was able to land some decent attacks on his foe, on the contrary, Evil Boo vs Mr. Boo was COMPLETELY one-sided. Unless, somehow, Mr. Boo's power increased while in captivity (I find this unlikely) I think it's fair to state the following as an operational power level definition...

Ranking:

Super Boo
Original Fat Boo (Full Extent of power released during extreme anger, otherwise it on par with Evil Boo)
Evil Boo
Kid Boo
Mr. Boo

Now... that stated... I think Goku could stand to be a few paces stronger considering the SSJ3 energy drain. They may have been messing around, but the fight was on fairly even terms despite the disparity between their powers. I think the reason Goku said that, was due to him finding the opportunity to increase his Ki like he did when Vegeta took over, but it failed, and to me, so does the accuracy of his quote.

[HazelMystic]

He couldn't even inflict any damage on his opponent, when that was his one and only goal.

Neither did Gohan! That's the beautiful part of my theory. In the end of the fight, Gohan was left with damaged clothes, and Dabura without any scratch. Gohan was surprised over Dabura's attacks during the whole fight, whilst Dabura didn't even flinch once. The fight was in Dabura's favor.

I think Dabra had that fight in the bag; he was simply a powerhouse, and quite a mysterious power too.

[Savage68]

He couldn't even inflict any damage on his opponent, when that was his one and only goal.

Neither did Gohan! That's the beautiful part of my theory. In the end of the fight, Gohan was left with damaged clothes, and Dabura without any scratch. Gohan was surprised over Dabura's attacks during the whole fight, whilst Dabura didn't even flinch once. The fight was in Dabura's favor.

Gohan was surprised because while he was actually trying to fight; Dabura was trying to use magic to gain himself an insta-win, although his drive to inflict at least some damage should've been much higher than Gohan's. But he inflicted none, and all of his attempts at winning were all shot down.

Moreover, it still doesn't prove that he was skilled, especially more skilled than Gohan. Toriyama having Dabura throw out black magik after black magik throughout the entire length of his debut fight didn't paint the picture of a skilled warrior at all. That goes against every piece of semblance being "skilled" carries with it in this series. I mean, is Babidi more skilled than Gohan? Surely his magical abilities are much more refined than Dabura's...

[HazelMystic]

He couldn't even inflict any damage on his opponent, when that was his one and only goal.

Neither did Gohan! That's the beautiful part of my theory. In the end of the fight, Gohan was left with damaged clothes, and Dabura without any scratch. Gohan was surprised over Dabura's attacks during the whole fight, whilst Dabura didn't even flinch once. The fight was in Dabura's favor.

Gohan was surprised because while he was actually trying to fight; Dabura was trying to use magic to gain himself an insta-win, although his drive to inflict at least some damage should've been much higher than Gohan's. But he inflicted none, and all of his attempts at winning were all shot down.

Moreover, it still doesn't prove that he was skilled, especially more skilled than Gohan. Toriyama having Dabura throw out black magik after black magik throughout the entire length of his debut fight didn't paint the picture of a skilled warrior at all. That goes against every piece of semblance being "skilled" carries with it in this series. I mean, is Babidi more skilled than Gohan? Surely his magical abilities are much more refined than Dabura's...

Well, to be fair... I don't think that was really the case. Dabra's spit is being black magick isn't entirely clear; it certainly could be physiological (I tend to think so). Skill is defined as the capacity to do something well, and if Dabra is able to keep his opponent at bay with his particular skill set, far better for him, as Vegeta would say "Nothing's fair in battle". I am not sure about Babidi... I mean he may be really skilled at a particular type of magick (mind control namely), and if the other Z Senshi aren't weak for this, then Dabra would have a definite edge... the kind of sorcery that Piccolo possessed.

[Savage68]

I was actually joking about the 'black magik' thing.

But being a skillful warrior in DB is always relegated to how skillful you are in the realm of fighting. Dabura's display of martial arts expertise was extremely underwhelming in that fight.

[Kaboom]

Gohan hardly even tried against Cell before he went Super Saiyan 2, and Cell didn't display his own full power until after that happened either. So Gohan's actual potential against Cell is mostly a mystery, but I suspect his battle with Dabra is pretty much how it'd turn out.

Did he even suffer any power drain at all before he tried to revv up...?

It may have started, but he definitely didn't start feeling the effects of it until he tried to rev up.

If not, is it at least safe to assume a living Goku couldn't beat Fat Buu?

Maybe. Goku had actually been trying to kill Kid Boo, but eventually came to the conclusion that he'd have to rev up his power to do so. Fat Boo is weaker, probably significantly so, so I doubt he'd need that extra effort, dead or alive.

[Savage68]

Gohan hardly even tried against Cell before he went Super Saiyan 2, and Cell likewise didn't display his own full power until that happened either.

He still wasn't winning, or even making Cell worried at all. This is when Gohan was at his full-power. Cell had yet to reach his full-power, which was apparently a massive increase from what he had been, up until then.

[Kaboom]

He still wasn't winning, or even making Cell worried at all. This is when Gohan was at his full-power. Cell had yet to reach his full-power, which was apparently a massive increase from what he had been, up until then.

Oh, I know. What I meant was even though he was operating at full power, he barely did anything to fight back. I don't remember him doing anything other than that one kick that knocked Cell on his ass. But in addition, he was still bouncing back from Cell's attacks relatively unharmed. So Gohan was probably nestled somewhere between Cell's current power and his full power.