Super Saiyan Goku and Freeza Battle Power Debate

[otakutrevan]

I remember there was a original thread about this that was pretty lengthy. If someone could link it it'd be cool.

[Kaboom]

I don't remember anything recent, which probably means it was a LONG time ago. A quick look on my part didn't reveal anything, but maybe someone else can find the one you're talking about.

But if there's a particular question or issue you wanted to bring up, then feel free to just ask here. Starting a new discussion is preferable to bumping a really old thread, and there might be some new insight since it happened anyway.

[Li'l Lemmy]

There were several threads devoted to this topic, albeit while serving different functions. Notable highlights include the following:

A. The most in-depth analysis/debate pertaining to Goku and Freeza's battle powers can be found here. Excellent for reference.

B. A lesser discussion that highlights the opinion of (mis)translations of the Daizenshuu's battle powers for Goku and Freeza can be found here.

C. Duo's single-handed explanation of Freeza's power as explained from a manga-exclusive perspective can be found here

Under no circumstances should any of these threads be bumped.


~Da Lemmy

[Kaboom]

Thanks for the assist, Lemmy. Just remember, kids: necro-posting is a no-no!

[Thanos6]

So basically, it all comes down to when you think Goku started using the Kaioken.

[Savage68]

Obviously, Goku was using K-Ken for his ENTIRE battle with Frieza.

It just wouldn't add up, otherwise.

[Rocketman]

So basically, it all comes down to when you think Goku started using the Kaioken.

And if you think Goku should get more of a powerup from minor scuffs than Vegeta gets from having a gigantic hole blasted through him.

[Godo]

So basically, it all comes down to when you think Goku started using the Kaioken.

And if you think Goku should get more of a powerup from minor scuffs than Vegeta gets from having a gigantic hole blasted through him.

Of course. He is ~GOKU~.

[Amigo Ten]

So basically, it all comes down to when you think Goku started using the Kaioken.

And if you think Goku should get more of a powerup from minor scuffs than Vegeta gets from having a gigantic hole blasted through him.

Of course. He is ~GOKU~.

This. You may not like it, or think it doesn't make sense, but I see no reason to actually doubt it. Goku got a ridiculously massive power boost because that's just how it goes.

[Kaboom]

Also, two other things that would explain Goku's bigger boost.

1) He was being set up as THE Super Saiyan at this point. Not just A Super Saiyan, but the ONLY one. Think about it; he was one his way to becoming the single, legendary warrior who was the strongest in the universe. His boosts were bigger because, uh... destiny?

2) Consider the circumstances of what happened to him for that last boost. I'm not just talking about him getting beaten up, I mean what happened right BEFORE he was beaten up, thanks to Ginyu. Goku's soul was literally torn from his body and plunked into someone else's. For all intents and purposes, that could have been treated by his Saiyan brain or body as something of a near-death experience. That little incident alone could, theoretically, have been precedence for a MASSIVE zenkai once Goku was returned to his body and healed.

[Dayspring]

On the pro-crazy zenkai side:

1) We're talking multiple zenkais in a short span of time under extreme gravity. In other words, he trained his zenaki ability as he had any other skill. Vegeta's zenkai would therefore be based entirely on the closeness to death, whereas Goku's no longer is.

2) Ginyu in Goku's body: Damage = that of someone with a BP of 23,000, zenkai = someone with a BP of 90,000. It's possible Goku's BP returning to normal (ie: stronger) resulted in a stronger zenkai gain.

EDIT:
3) Goku's mastered Kaioken by this point. It's possible the zenkai was affected by it.

4) Goku's surpassed his own potential by this point. This could have messed with how powerful zenkais become.

4b) Some or all of the above combined.

[Fin]

Of course, Vegeta got some ridiculous boosts too. His rating goes up about 6,000 each time the two times in the healing tanks, which seems okay (18,000 to 30,000). But another two boosts later (Reacoom and Freeza) he surpasses Freeza's third form, which should put him well over 1,000,000.

It seems that potential Super Saiyans just get the cheapest power-ups. Maybe they should have kept exploiting that gimmick, instead of actually going Super.

[Kaboom]

It also might have something to do with the frequency of the boosts that ultimately makes them bigger. Like whatever part of the brain that controls them has been giving boost after boost, each a little bigger than the last, but is realizing, "oh damn, this isn't working, he's STILL getting beaten down again and again... it's time for a HUMUNGO-ZENKAI!" So suddenly BAM, you're soaring into ranges of over a million.

[Dayspring]

Also, we don't know the extent of Goku's wounds. Let's say a rib broke and got lodged INSIDE an internal organ. Healing is not the same as expelling and then healing, so it's possible he got closer to death than Vegeta.

[jjgp1112]

Also, two other things that would explain Goku's bigger boost.

1) He was being set up as THE Super Saiyan at this point. Not just A Super Saiyan, but the ONLY one. Think about it; he was one his way to becoming the single, legendary warrior who was the strongest in the universe. His boosts were bigger because, uh... destiny?

Wow, now that I think about it, that's pretty much the most logical explanation. And if Vegeta wants to bitch about, then as Piccolo once said, "If you're gonna blame anything, blame your own fate."

Also, reading the first thread, I don't understand why people are arguing as if Goku never got the ridiculously huge boost in the first place. This post in particular struck me as odd:

That deserves a pretty high ZPU

And that's exactly what it got. 90k to 300k, a 3.3 fold increase, he's greatest boost in power, ever.

The fact is, Goku DID get a ridiculous boost. The problem that most people are trying to figure out is HOW, he got such a big boost. Let's not pretend that it didn't even happen and try to downplay it.

"It's not whether you believe in unbelievably lower or higher numbers, it's going by gumption and what the Manga has to say."

[Rocketman]

Also, we don't know the extent of Goku's wounds. Let's say a rib broke and got lodged INSIDE an internal organ. Healing is not the same as expelling and then healing, so it's possible he got closer to death than Vegeta.

Vegeta's heart got punched out his back.

[Godo]

Also, we don't know the extent of Goku's wounds. Let's say a rib broke and got lodged INSIDE an internal organ. Healing is not the same as expelling and then healing, so it's possible he got closer to death than Vegeta.

Vegeta's heart got punched out his back.

And his spine shattered, yet he can walk fine!

[Nazi Cola]

People still think Freeza's power wasn't in the hundred millions? Wow.

[Savage68]

People still think Freeza's power wasn't in the hundred millions? Wow.

They think that Goku was using Kaio-ken x10 from the beginning of his fight with Freeza, as absurd as it may sound.

[Nazi Cola]

People still think Freeza's power wasn't in the hundred millions? Wow.

They think that Goku was using Kaio-ken x10 from the beginning of his fight with Freeza, as absurd as it may sound.

Yeah. I don't get it really. Goku at only 300,000 when everything in the manga says otherwise? Please. Vegeta was able to tango with 1st Form Freeza before going down, and even after a Zenkai where he stated he was strong enough to whoop on 3rd Form Freeza, he still practically shat his pants at Goku's newfound power before any fighting with 4th Form Freeza even took place. Unless they believe Goku just uses the Kaioken x10 nonchalantly while he's not even fighting, I just don't know.