Stupid things you've ignored.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I think it was stated in one of the Daizenshuu that Kaiohshin is outright stronger than Piccolo.

Yeah, except the Daizenshuu seems to just be taking Piccolo's word for it, as there's no other basis for the idea in the manga itself. Nobody could sense Kaioshin's Ki, and they didn't know who he was (only Piccolo had an inkling, but he still thought he was "just" the Grand Kaio). So there was no way for Pic to actually tell how strong Kaioshin was. Piccolo either backed down based on a "gut feeling" or just by virtue of Kaioshin's status. (But regardless, if I don't have Kaioshin stronger than Piccolo when I make BP lists, the people at "other forums" throw a fit)

The same problem holds true and is applicable for this thread with Androids 17 and 18. Trunks thinks the Androids in his future are inexplicably weaker than the "prime" ones, mentioning that although he could hold his own against his, the ones in the past kicked his ass. But we can tell based on bits from the plot that it's more likely "his" Androids were merely toying with him while these ones didn't hold back. Because they had mostly wiped out humanity and were bored, for fun they had a tendency to fool their opponents into thinking they had a chance, only to beat them down and leave them to lick their wounds until last time. They did it with Gohan, and dialogue from right before their fitting deaths very strongly implied they'd been doing it with Trunks too.

But whatever bum was going through that part and compiling information for the Daizenshuu apparently didn't look past poor, confused, bonked-in-the-head little Trunks' one line, took his word for it, and listed that the future Androids are flat-out weaker than the present ones. Yet if one looks even a little bit farther than that, there's no actual precedence for that. Odds are, there's no difference in power between the alternate Androids; just differences in attitudes and goals.

That's a nice little theory you've got going on there and I hate to beat a dead horse, but if it's said in the Daizenshuu, it's usually taken as fact.

[MCDaveG]

That Gotenks portion, I like humour in Dragon Ball, but after really dark atmosphere from Cell saga into less serious Buu arc, pop out of freaking maggot.

[Rocketman]

That Gotenks portion, I like humour in Dragon Ball, but after really dark atmosphere from Cell saga into less serious Buu arc, pop out of freaking maggot.

Goten: *watches his mom get murdered* ... Let's play around as Gotenks!

[Piccolo Daimao]

Anyhoo, while browsing YouTube for Dragon Ball related videos, I stumbled upon some GT scenes with SSJ4 Goku and I started watching for good old times' sake. And I remembered Goku's new and amazing ability which came with his new transformation - the one to grow pants and shoes on himself. It always seemed weird to me how he tore of his clothes when he turned into an Oozharu and then later when he changed to an adult Saiyan, he suddenly had *NEW* pants and shoes on in his size.
Of course, it would've been weird for him to be naked and fight like that, but that still doesn't explain it. The explanation here is that Toei did it just to cover his bottom part of the body, as they couldn't afford to have a naked man swinging his genitalia against his enemies (well, duh). So yeah, it's just one of those things you learn to simply ignore.

See, I got the idea that Toei would actually prefer Goku to fight naked.

I think it was stated in one of the Daizenshuu that Kaiohshin is outright stronger than Piccolo.

Yeah, except the Daizenshuu seems to just be taking Piccolo's word for it, as there's no other basis for the idea in the manga itself. Nobody could sense Kaioshin's Ki, and they didn't know who he was (only Piccolo had an inkling, but he still thought he was "just" the Grand Kaio). So there was no way for Pic to actually tell how strong Kaioshin was. Piccolo either backed down based on a "gut feeling" or just by virtue of Kaioshin's status. (But regardless, if I don't have Kaioshin stronger than Piccolo when I make BP lists, the people at "other forums" throw a fit)

The same problem holds true and is applicable for this thread with Androids 17 and 18. Trunks thinks the Androids in his future are inexplicably weaker than the "prime" ones, mentioning that although he could hold his own against his, the ones in the past kicked his ass. But we can tell based on bits from the plot that it's more likely "his" Androids were merely toying with him while these ones didn't hold back. Because they had mostly wiped out humanity and were bored, for fun they had a tendency to fool their opponents into thinking they had a chance, only to beat them down and leave them to lick their wounds until last time. They did it with Gohan, and dialogue from right before their fitting deaths very strongly implied they'd been doing it with Trunks too.

But whatever bum was going through that part and compiling information for the Daizenshuu apparently didn't look past poor, confused, bonked-in-the-head little Trunks' one line, took his word for it, and listed that the future Androids are flat-out weaker than the present ones. Yet if one looks even a little bit farther than that, there's no actual precedence for that. Odds are, there's no difference in power between the alternate Androids; just differences in attitudes and goals.

That's a nice little theory you've got going on there and I hate to beat a dead horse, but if it's said in the Daizenshuu, it's usually taken as fact.

Most things in the Daizenshuu are usually taken as fact if they don't have any contradictions with the manga or seem outright iffy. However, the Daizenshuu are not to be taken as absolute gospel. They have gotten things wrong before, such as stating that Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra (which is debatable, but visual evidence shows us Gohan was SSJ1) & incorrectly stating Goku's BP as 8,000 (you could make the argument that they were just rounding down, as we actually aren't given an exact number, but still, it's wrong).

That being said, I do actually believe that Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo, as much as it pains me to say it. I can't remember the exact line, but I think it went something like Goku asking "Is he that strong, Piccolo?", and Piccolo replying "Yes. Our dimensions...are too different." To me, that implies that Piccolo believes Kaioshin is stronger than himself, what with Piccolo's response to Goku's questions concerning his strength (Is he that strong?) and the whole "dimensions" thing. It has to be taken as it is, since there is nothing else to hint at Kaioshin's strength.
I remember someone (Herms?) saying that Piccolo's line about Kaioshin is similar to Tenshinhan's line about Super Saiyan Goku, which is clearly relating to SSJ Goku's strength. And that Toriyama once said something in an interview or whatever about a guy he thought was much better than at something, referring to "dimensions".

The argument relating to whether or not Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo will probably continue to be argued about over and over until the end of time, and no-one will ever get any closer to discovering a definitive answer unless Toriyama comes out and gives it himself, so, for now, people will just have to either settle with their own opinions or continue to argue pointlessly about an age-old topic.

[SonEric84]

That being said, I do actually believe that Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo, as much as it pains me to say it. I can't remember the exact line, but I think it went something like Goku asking "Is he that strong, Piccolo?", and Piccolo replying "Yes. Our dimensions...are too different."

I actually just read this chapter earlier today. The viz translation of the line is "he's a different order of being", which I thought just meant someone from another world or of Godly origins.

[Piccolo Daimao]

That being said, I do actually believe that Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo, as much as it pains me to say it. I can't remember the exact line, but I think it went something like Goku asking "Is he that strong, Piccolo?", and Piccolo replying "Yes. Our dimensions...are too different."

I actually just read this chapter earlier today. The viz translation of the line is "he's a different order of being", which I thought just meant someone from another world or of Godly origins.

That, too, was my first impression. However, I ignored that Goku was asking Piccolo a question relating to strength.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

That, too, was my first impression. However, I ignored that Goku was asking Piccolo a question relating to strength.

Exactly, he was referring to him being so strong that he's in another dimension (hehe) strength wise than himself.

[Dayspring]

Kaioshin is stronger than Dai Kaio, Piccolo is convinced the Dai Kaio is stronger than him. I'd rather trust Piccolo's instincts regarding his own strength than fans' opinion of the validity of the daizenshuu.

As for the androids and Trunks, I tend to flip on who I believe. It makes sense for the androids to be weaker; this Dr Gero would have had time to work on them. Meanwhile, Trunks is stated to be at the same level as Gohan, who was killed by #17, yet Trunks was able to 'hold his own' against both of them? Methinks Trunks is a dumbass again here. Even though he didn't know #17 was messing with him, he knows Gohan was equal in strength and higher in skill, yet DIED when Trunks left needing a week's bed rest? I usually go back and forth between 'Daizenshuu's right: Gero weakened them, but they're still messing with Trunks' and 'Daizenshuu's wrong: they're just messing with Trunks.'