Dabra v. SSJ Goku - Interesting match?

[ChaojiShucaiRen]

What if Cell-era Full Power SSJ Goku were to go up against Dabra mono y mono? I guess the deciding factor would be whether or not you percieve Dabra as being stronger or weaker than Perfect Cell. Also we know that Goku has some pretty nice tricks up his sleeve that could have dealt with Cell (IT Kamehameha) if not for his regeneration. On the other hand, we also know that Dabra was at least a handful for SSJ 2 Gohan even though he was clearly not a strong as his teenage self. In the end I think that Goku would find a way to win this match even without his "main character always finds a way" set up. Thoughts?

[Savage68]

Goku initially estimated Dabura's strength to be comparable to that of Perfect Cell's - the guy that was above any SSJ1 and required nothing less than SSJ2 to defeat. Even the suppressed Perfect Cell that Goku fought proved too much for him to handle. This is all before Cell powers up to his max, which, given the looks on everyone's faces, was more than they ever imagined. So yeah, FPSSJ Goku has no chance at all against Perfect Cell.

Goku also says that Dabura could be beaten "at the level we are now, anyway.", implying that he would've lost against the dude 7 years prior.

While fighting Gohan, Goku states that Dabura was even stronger than he thought, which means he was stronger than Perfect Cell. He couldn't have been citing Dabura's magical abilities, because magic doesn't make someone more powerful, and the two comments weren't even a part of the same speech bubble. Dabura is stronger than Perfect Cell, who was much, much stronger than FPSSJ Goku. Goku loses pretty hard.

[hleV]

What Savage68 has posted completely makes sense.

But now another thing to think about.
Yes, Goku instantly estimated Dabura to be around Perfect Cell's power.
But Gohan was weaker than in Cell Games and (if we go by the appearance) he was only SSJ.
How could Goku notice Dabura being stronger than Perfect Cell when Dabura was pretty much even with weak SSJ Gohan? Dabura hadn't had shown anything super awesome to be treated that way. Dabura couldn't have had shown anything like that during the fight part we didn't see because we still saw Gohan fighting evenly with Dabura after that. So how? How is Dabura treated as superior to Perfect Cell?

While it makes sense that Dabura is stronger than Perfect Cell following Goku's words, it doesn't really make sense if we follow the fight.

[Savage68]

That's why I don't think Gohan was SSJ1 against Dabura, or Buu. The art is the strongest piece of evidence going for him only being SSJ1, but virtually everything else in the story tells us that Gohan couldn't possibly be operating on that level of power and that he was instead using SSJ2. If you can get over the artwork and instead choose what the story presents to the reader, it's much more streamlined that way.

Or, some people think Dabura was holding back against Gohan. I don't think that was the case, since I can't imagine too many bad guys that enjoy being completely even with someone weaker than them for shits and giggles, and especially when his only goal was to inflict damage (and he failed). When it was time for Dabura to fight Gohan again, he was confident that he would easily dispatch of him...because he was a villain. Cockiness is what they do. It didn't mean he'd have any easier a time.

Dabura was going all-out against Gohan, and he was stronger than Perfect Cell.

[hleV]

Or we can simply say this:

• Gohan was SSJ because he was drawn that way.
• Gohan vs Dabura plot was pretty much impossible with Gohan being SSJ only.
• It's a plot hole aka damn Toriyama for hurting fans with uncertainty.

OR

• Goku is an idiot.

[Savage68]

The story, as a whole, is more important than the artwork for a single character's form(s). It's not a plothole unless you think otherwise.

It wasn't just Goku's words/actions we have to go by. If he was wrong (twice), you'd think Vegeta would've corrected him.

[Kaboom]

"Goku is bald in this part of the story."
"What? No he's not. He's got lots of hair, you can see it right there on his head."
"Well, it makes more sense for the plot if he's bald, so I'll consider him to be bald despite not being drawn that way."
"..."

How is Gohan's Super Saiyan form any different? There IS no better "presentation to the reader" than what's actually visually drawn and shown. Things like dialogue and inference can be vague. Artwork rarely ever is.

Plus apparently, Dabra was holding back on Gohan to some degree. He later seems confident, after having tangoed with him for some time, that he CAN beat Gohan with little trouble. Obviously some part of this may be typical villain arrogance, but he's still speaking from experience. Plus, Dabra's primary goal was to steal Ki for Boo's resurrection, after all. So even if he did have Gohan outclassed, he could have been purposely prolonging the fight in order to maximize the damage.

So long story short, there isn't anything in the story that goes against Gohan being a Super Saiyan 1 against Dabra. In actuality, everything supports it.


As for the original question... nah, Cell Games Goku couldn't do it. If he can't beat Cell, then he can't beat Dabra either. They practically go hand-in-hand.

[Bussani]

magic doesn't make someone more powerful

I don't know about that. Maybe not directly, but the attack Dabura used to send Gohan flying into the ocean was some kind of fire spell, and more importantly, the guides describe the main difference between magic and ki as being "magic doesn't use any stamina". If you can fire off powerful attacks like that without even tiring yourself out, I'd say that's quite advantageous in the long run.

[Savage68]

How is Gohan's Super Saiyan form any different? There IS no better "presentation to the reader" than what's actually visually drawn and shown. Things like dialogue and inference can be vague. Artwork rarely ever is.

An overwhelming amount of evidence in the story that isn't vague, and is actually the opposite says that Gohan was fighting someone stronger than Perfect Cell, and that overthrows the art. Gohan's SSJ hair changed. A SSJ1 had lightning in his aura. The art isn't nearly as consistent as some like to believe. Doesn't matter what he looked like if nearly every action and statement in the arc says otherwise, and it only becomes more and more glaringly obvious.

Plus apparently, Dabra was holding back on Gohan to some degree. He later seems confident, after having tangoed with him for some time, that he CAN beat Gohan with little trouble. Obviously some part of this may be typical villain arrogance, but he's still speaking from experience.

Dabura can beat Gohan with little trouble. In fact, he almost did so (twice) in their first encounter. That doesn't mean his power was suppressed, though. He has magic - magic that can end a fight on a whim. He no longer was preoccupied with retrieving energy for Buu, and could throw out his one-shots until the cows came home.

And you still have Dabura being confident in taking on the heavily suppressed Buu, the one Gohan said would take "all of his power" to defeat. I'm pretty sure all of Gohan's power isn't in the realm of SSJ1. So either Dabura is SSJ2-tier, or he's a really cocky bastard. Both are correct, if you ask me. But they both certainly couldn't be incorrect.

Plus, Dabra's primary goal was to steal Ki for Boo's resurrection, after all. So even if he did have Gohan outclassed, he could have been purposely prolonging the fight in order to maximize the damage.

I don't get it. If Dabura were actually stronger than Gohan, and he had direct orders to inflict damage...he would've done so, if possible. Drawing a fight out while producing 0 energy for Buu wouldn't follow any line of reasoning for any of the Majins but Vegeta, and would have no real point. If dude was stronger, he would've started owning right out of the gate. The most effective way to do so would be to simply land some significantly damaging hits (like Pui and Yakon tried to do). But not fooling around while only angering your master by failing horribly at your sole purpose.

I don't know about that. Maybe not directly, but the attack Dabura used to send Gohan flying into the ocean was some kind of fire spell, and more importantly, the guides describe the main difference between magic and ki as being "magic doesn't use any stamina". If you can fire off powerful attacks like that without even tiring yourself out, I'd say that's quite advantageous in the long run.

That isn't what makes DB characters more "powerful", at least not in the context that Goku was using it in. He was watching the on-going battle and was specifically mentioning Dabura's strength. Either way, even the SSJ1 Gohan from the Cell Games would have absolutely no chance against someone Perfect Cell-tier. Let alone a weaker SSJ1 Gohan.

We also have Vegeta getting pissed off that Gohan isn't doing as well as he expects. If Gohan still had another form under his belt, he'd just use it. And/or Vegeta would have no reason to be upset, since he knows Gohan isn't "really" struggling and still has a fairly large chance of winning. Before Goku departs to fight Vegeta, instead of telling Gohan, "Hey! Just use SSJ2!", he instead tells him to remember the battle with Cell, and to be as strong as he was then.

And of course, there's Gohan's fight with Buu. Gohan initially surmised that it would take all of his power to defeat Buu. Again, "all" of Gohan's power is SSJ2. Buu got even stronger than he was at that time, and still didn't outright kill Gohan with his physical attacks or his big meant-to-kill ki blast. There's frankly no way in hell a SSJ1 would survive that, and Kaioshin still tells Kibito (who obviously saw SSJ2 Gohan) that he didn't get to see how powerful Gohan really was.

[Xyex]

You know what I would like to know? Why people automatically assume "Oh, Goku compared Dabura to Cell! That means Super Perfect Cell/Perfect Cell at full power!"

It makes no sense, given the context of the fight.

However, the Perfect Cell that Goku fought at the Cell Games? That's right up Buu era SSJ Gohan's alley. The two of them should be pretty much dead even at this point. Really, the only thing that indicates Gohan as an SSJ2 in that fight is the Daizenshuu, but... well, that doesn't work. Even a slacked off SSJ2 Gohan would totally own Cell.

[Son_Gohan]

Goku couldn't beat Cell at the time, and I don't see Dabura being any different, considering he was used in comparison to him and would be far more unpredictable. Their tier of power would require at least SSJ2 to defeat.

So long story short, there isn't anything in the story that goes against Gohan being a Super Saiyan 1 against Dabra. In actuality, everything supports it.

The fact that nobody ever states anywhere in the story that he wasn't using SSJ2 doesn't seem to support it at all.

[Kaboom]

I apologize in advance if any of this comes off as brusque; I've had to beat down this stupid argument several times at other internet locales before and, frankly, by this point the ignorance and blindness on the topic has me somewhat disenchanted and weary.

I'd hope DaizEX would be a step above most other DB-centric cesspits, so hopefully a few people will get my points.

An overwhelming amount of evidence in the story that isn't vague,

Like what, exactly? I've yet to actually see anything.

But I do see Goku imploring Gohan, before his impending rematch with Dabra, to get mad and use his true power, "like [he] did against Cell," and that he could definitely win if he did, thus strongly implying that Gohan wasn't able to before. I see Gohan subsequently admitting that he's having trouble using his anger.

I see Gohan VERY CLEARLY being shown and stated to be "beyond Super Saiyan" at the tournament... and then looking VERY different against Dabra. I also see Goku and Vegeta clearly displayed as Super Saiyan 2s against each other, while Gohan was portrayed as just a Super Saiyan 1 at the same time.

The art differences are too consistent. There's a clear, obvious, (supposedly) idiot-proof intention there. We wouldn't assume Goku's a Super Saiyan 3 if he still had his eyebrows but didn't have long hair. So why is it okay to assume Gohan is something that he doesn't look anything like?

and is actually the opposite says that Gohan was fighting someone stronger than Perfect Cell,

And he wasn't winning. At all. If he actually BEAT someone arguably stronger than Cell, then we might have an issue. But he didn't so we don't.

and that overthrows the art.

Nay, it does not.

If Toriyama drew third-form Freeza fighting someone, we wouldn't assume he's actually in his second form just because we want to or we think "it'd make more sense for the plot." The Super Saiyan forms are no different. They have clear, distinct, visual differences. Dragon Ball is not some deep, multi-interpretive manga. What you see is what you get.

So if Gohan doesn't look like a Super Saiyan 2, then he's not a Super Saiyan 2. It's just that simple, really.

Gohan's SSJ hair changed.

What, from the Saiyaman arc? Yes, Toriyama started drawing his Super Saiyan hair with one bang regardless of which stage he was in, if that's what you mean. During the tournament and onward, there's no distinct visual difference in hair whether he's at SSj1 or SSj2. Which is why we go by the aura instead.

A SSJ1 had lightning in his aura.

You mean Vegetto? For one panel AS he was transforming. Lightning's been used for effect in similar cases before.

Heck, I'd bet the lightning-filled aura for SSj2 mostly exists so we CAN tell the difference between the stages with folks like Gohan and Vegeta, whose hair doesn't change.

The art isn't nearly as consistent as some like to believe.

It's never 100%, but it's more than enough in this case.

Doesn't matter what he looked like if nearly every action and statement in the arc says otherwise, and it only becomes more and more glaringly obvious.

And I've yet to actually see any of these actions or statements, while I've recounted plenty for my case.

Certainly, Dabura can beat Gohan with little trouble. In fact, he almost did so (twice) in their first encounter. That doesn't mean his power was suppressed, though. He has magic - magic that can end a fight on a whim. He no longer was preoccupied with retrieving energy for Buu, and could throw out his one-shots until the cows came home.

Regardless whether through magic or raw power, the point is that Super Saiyan Gohan is not a match for Dabra.

Xyex has a good point too. Goku's comparison of Dabra to Cell was a VERY loose one, not in the least bit precise. Dabra proved "stronger than he thought" with his magic, but we don't know exactly what his "starting point" was to begin with. He could actually be dead-even with SSj Gohan in terms of Ki power, but have an edge through his magic.

And you still have Dabura being confident in taking on the heavily suppressed Buu, the one Gohan said would take "all of his power" to defeat. I'm pretty sure all of Gohan's power isn't in the realm of SSJ1. So either Dabura is SSJ2-tier, or he's a really cocky bastard. Both are correct, if you ask me. But they both certainly couldn't be incorrect.

I think we... agree on this part? I did say that part of Dabra's claim could be typical villain overconfidence.

I don't follow. If Dabura were actually stronger than Gohan, and he had direct orders to inflict damage...he would've done so, if possible. Drawing a fight out while producing 0 energy for Buu wouldn't follow any line of reasoning for any of the Majins but Vegeta, and would have no real point. If dude was stronger, he would've started owning right out of the gate. The most effective way to do so would be to simply land some significantly damaging hits (like Pui and Yakon tried to do). But not fooling around while only angering your master by failing horribly at your sole purpose.

I mean that a one-hit kill might not produce as much energy as a long, bloody beat down. So prolonging a battle in order to do more damage might be more effective.

[Xyex]

So long story short, there isn't anything in the story that goes against Gohan being a Super Saiyan 1 against Dabra. In actuality, everything supports it.

The fact that nobody ever states anywhere in the story that he wasn't using SSJ2 doesn't seem to support it at all.

It's never stated that he is using SSJ2 against Dabura/Buu, either.

And Goku and Gohan both imply he isn't.

[Fin]

It seems to me the whole point of Toriyama having Goku compare Dabra to Cell was to demonstrate how much weaker Gohan had become. I guess he just left out the Super Saiyan 2 sparklies because he's lazy.

Besides, why would Gohan not be in Super Saiyan 2 for that fight?

[Son_Gohan]

It's never stated that he is using SSJ2 against Dabura/Buu, either.

And Goku and Gohan both imply he isn't.

But if he was using SSJ1, than it would've been indicated somewhere that he wasn't using his strongest form, which he had previously shown was capable of using no problem. When Vegeta gets impatient while Dabura is fighting Gohan, would've been the appropriate time to make such a statement, but neither he or Goku seem to suggest that he was holding back or wasn't trying his best.

[Savage68]

You know what I would like to know? Why people automatically assume "Oh, Goku compared Dabura to Cell! That means Super Perfect Cell/Perfect Cell at full power!"

It makes no sense, given the context of the fight.

A citation of Super Perfect would make no sense, full-power Perfect would. "The Cell that Goku fought" isn't Perfect Cell. It's a percentage of Perfect Cell, and that's not how power comparisons work. That'd be like Goku saying he could beat 60% of Fat Buu or something. He had a completely solid idea of what Cell's full-power was, so there's no reason for him to cite a power output that was proven to be unrepresentative of how strong Cell was.

It doesn't really matter though, since Goku was wrong, and Dabura was stronger than what he first had in mind.

But I do see Goku imploring Gohan, before his impending rematch with Dabra, to get mad and use his true power, "like [he] did against Cell," and that he could definitely win if he did, thus strongly implying that Gohan wasn't able to before. I see Gohan subsequently admitting that he's having trouble using his anger.

You're right, Goku did implore Gohan to get angry, so that he could be as powerful as he was back against Cell. And in response to that, Gohan said that he was already angry, but couldn't be the way he was before - as strong as he was 7 years ago. Gohan being weaker in the Buu arc is common knowledge. The only way this comment is relevant is if you think he needs to use anger as a catalyst for SSJ2.

The art differences are too consistent. There's a clear, obvious, (supposedly) idiot-proof intention there. We wouldn't assume Goku's a Super Saiyan 3 if he still had his eyebrows but didn't have long hair. So why is it okay to assume Gohan is something that he doesn't look anything like?

Because numerous statements and actions say otherwise, like I said before. The whole "Gohan's aura is SSJ while another fight has clear SSJ2 auras' doesn't prove anything, except that Gohan had a SSJ1 aura. I don't know who ever argued against this. That doesn't change the fact that he fought decently against people that were well above any SSJ1's capabilities, and had absolutely no reason to not use SSJ2 against either of them.

And he wasn't winning. He was mostly losing, in fact. If he actually BEAT someone arguably stronger than Cell, then we might have an issue. But he didn't so we don't. And it doesn't.

...What? Gohan took a blast head-on by this person, knocked him away, and broke his damn sword (when taken by surprise). They were both panting in the end. They were fighting evenly, and even if they weren't, no SSJ1 could accomplish any of those things. No SSJ1 was ever even winning definitively against a suppressed version of Perfect Cell, so how could a weak one fight so well against someone that was placed in the same power bracket as him to begin with?

If Toriyama drew third-form Freeza fighting someone, we wouldn't assume he's actually in his second form just because we want to or we think "it'd make more sense for the plot." The Super Saiyan forms are no different.

Of course they are. Frieza's transformations would be mistaken as entirely different people if we didn't already know it was him; He has more than just an aura change between power-ups. Gohan always looks like Gohan, no matter what. No matter what hypothetical you use, it doesn't change what's already been said and done, and that goes for both arguments.

And I've yet to actually see any of these actions or statements, while I've recounted plenty for my case.

I could say this exact same thing. All I see is "he looks like, therefore he is". I'm of the belief that the story Toriyama writes supersedes the art Toriyama draws.

I think we... agree on this part? I did say that part of Dabra's claim could be typical villain overconfidence.

My point was that his confidence when faced with the prospect of a rematch didn't mean he held back the first time around.

I mean that a one-hit kill might not produce as much energy as a long, bloody beat down. So prolonging a battle in order to do more damage might be more effective.

But that wasn't what was happening, and it didn't look like it ever would. Dabura tried to hurt Gohan, and it didn't work. If he planned to damage his foe little-by-little, he didn't need to prolong the fight to do that. The best he could manage was to fight evenly with Gohan, much to Babidi's dismay.

[Xyex]

It seems to me the whole point of Toriyama having Goku compare Dabra to Cell was to demonstrate how much weaker Gohan had become. I guess he just left out the Super Saiyan 2 sparklies because he's lazy.

Too lazy to draw lightning around Gohan but around Vegeta and Goku one panel later?

Besides, why would Gohan not be in Super Saiyan 2 for that fight?

Because he was unable to be? Goku keeps telling him to 'get angry like before [at the Cell Games]' and he says he can't. We know that Super Saiya-jin requires training to be able to access it at will, Goku tells us this. We also know that Gohan did not train after the Cell Games. Which means his SSJ2 transformation against Kibito was, quite likely, the first time he'd done it in seven years. This happened shortly after being pissed off at Spoppovitch over what happened to Videl. What's more, Gohan was given plenty of time to just stand there, channel his ki, and power-up to transform. He had neither residual anger, nor time to just stand around, during his fight with Dabura.

But if he was using SSJ1, than it would've been indicated somewhere that he wasn't using his strongest form, which he had previously shown was capable of using no problem. When Vegeta gets impatient while Dabura is fighting Gohan, would've been the appropriate time to make such a statement, but neither he or Goku seem to suggest that he was holding back or wasn't trying his best.

It was indicated he wasn't using his strongest form, with Goku's 'get angry' and so forth. No one thought he was holding back, because he wasn't. He simply wasn't able to transform.

You know what I would like to know? Why people automatically assume "Oh, Goku compared Dabura to Cell! That means Super Perfect Cell/Perfect Cell at full power!"

It makes no sense, given the context of the fight.

A citation of Super Perfect would make no sense, full-power Perfect would. "The Cell that Goku fought" isn't Perfect Cell. It's a percentage of Perfect Cell, and that's not how power comparisons work. That'd be like Goku saying he could beat 60% of Fat Buu or something. He had a completely solid idea of what Cell's full-power was, so there's no reason for him to cite a power output that was proven to be unrepresentative of how strong Cell was.

It doesn't really matter though, since Goku was wrong, and Dabura was stronger than what he first had in mind.

Except that characters don't go "Oh, well, this person is as strong as this person was at this specific point at this specific time while using this specific amount of their power" nor do they go "Oh, well, he's as strong as someone I never fought against, nor really got a feeling for their power, so I'm not sure how strong they were, but he's as strong as him!" Goku never really got to see very much of Perfect Cell's full power but he did see quite a bit of the same Perfect Cell that we all saw quite a bit of. The one that he fought. Which is more logical to you? "He's about as strong as someone who's power I only vaguely know, so I'm just guessing here, and it could be more of a problem than I think, but who cares?" or "He's about as strong as someone I fought for a while, and who's power I know really well, so I'm not really concerned."

IIRC, Goku also doesn't claim Dabura is stronger than he thought, just that he's better than he thought.

Goku comparing Dabura to any version of Cell other than the one he fought makes no logical sense. Neither through common sense or the context of the story and art.

But I do see Goku imploring Gohan, before his impending rematch with Dabra, to get mad and use his true power, "like [he] did against Cell," and that he could definitely win if he did, thus strongly implying that Gohan wasn't able to before. I see Gohan subsequently admitting that he's having trouble using his anger.

You're right, Goku did implore Gohan to get angry, so that he could be as powerful as he was back against Cell. And in response to that, Gohan said that he was already angry, but couldn't be the way he was before - as strong as he was 7 years ago. Gohan being weaker in the Buu arc is common knowledge. The only way this comment is relevant is if you think he needs to use anger as a catalyst for SSJ2.

Well, he kind of does, considering he's not trained to be able to transform into SSJ2 at will and all.

The art differences are too consistent. There's a clear, obvious, (supposedly) idiot-proof intention there. We wouldn't assume Goku's a Super Saiyan 3 if he still had his eyebrows but didn't have long hair. So why is it okay to assume Gohan is something that he doesn't look anything like?

Because numerous statements and actions say otherwise, like I said before. The whole "Gohan's aura is SSJ while another fight has clear SSJ2 auras' doesn't prove anything, except that Gohan had a SSJ1 aura. I don't know who ever argued against this. That doesn't change the fact that he fought decently against people that were well above any SSJ1's capabilities, and had absolutely no reason to not use SSJ2 against either of them.

Gohan's aura being an SSJ1 aura proves that he's SSJ1. It's really just as simple as that.

As for why he didn't use SSJ2, I've already covered that.

Also, what the hell is this nonsense about Dabura (and be extention, Cell) being "well above any SSJ1's capabilities"? Cell proved he was stronger than Goku, yes. But Gohan was also stronger than Goku and no one ever compared SSJ Gohan and Cell's powers for us to know where they stand compared to each other. They couldn't, we never saw Gohan's full SSJ1 power. But, based on how easily SSJ2 Gohan smacked around Cell, I think it's pretty safe to assume that even SSJ1 Gohan would have been decently stronger than Cell's full power. The way I see it:

SSJ Goku - 60
Cell (100%) - 80
SSJ Gohan (Unseen Max) - 138

If Toriyama drew third-form Freeza fighting someone, we wouldn't assume he's actually in his second form just because we want to or we think "it'd make more sense for the plot." The Super Saiyan forms are no different.

Of course they are. Freeza's transformations would be mistaken as entirely different people if we didn't already know it was him; He has more than just an aura change between power-ups. Gohan always looks like Gohan, no matter what. No matter what hypothetical you use, it doesn't change what's already been said and done, and that goes for both arguments.

Gohan doesn't look exactly the same between forms. SSJ has no lightning, SSJ2 does. No matter what. No matter what hypothetical you use, it doesn't chane what's already been said and done, shown and established. Period. No persistant lightning = SSJ1. It's only if you try to assume that:
A) Cell's full power must be a quadrillion times stronger than any SSJ1.
And
B) Dabura must be the same level of power as Perfect Cell's full power.
That you run into any issues with SSJ Gohan vs. Dabura.

And I've yet to actually see any of these actions or statements, while I've recounted plenty for my case.

I could say this exact same thing. All I see is "he looks like, therefore he is". I'm of the belief that the story Toriyama writes supersedes the art Toriyama draws.

Except that Dragonball is the whole package. Neither one 'supersedes' the other. Gohan = SSJ1. Dabura = Cell. Therefore, either because Goku was comparing Dabura to the Cell he fought, or becuase Gohan was just that much stronger than Cell as an SSJ1 seven years ago SSJ1 Gohan is about the same strength as Dabura. It's really just that simple.

[hleV]

Goku can compare Dabura's strength to whoever's strength he wants to. He didn't fight full-powered Perfect Cell nor he fought Dabura. He sensed full-powered Perfect Cell's power and he sensed Dabura's power the same way. Then claimed that Dabura was about Cell's power.

[Savage68]

Goku can compare Dabura's strength to whoever's strength he wants to. He didn't fight full-powered Perfect Cell nor he fought Dabura. He sensed full-powered Perfect Cell's power and he sensed Dabura's power the same way. Then claimed that Dabura was about Cell's power.

Good point. He sensed both Dabura and Cell through the same method and made a direct comparison from there. He doesn't need to trade blows with someone to have a solid feel on their ki, since that's what ki-sensing is for already.

And at the time of the initial comparison to Cell, Dabura hadn't even used his full power yet.

Goku never really got to see very much of Perfect Cell's full power but he did see quite a bit of the same Perfect Cell that we all saw quite a bit of.

This, quite frankly, sounds ridiculous. He knew exactly how strong both percentages were, and the attribute of fighting against one didn't mean whenever he referenced Cell from that point on, he had to be talking about that particular version of Cell, even though he knows that wasn't how strong Cell was. It wasn't who Cell was.

What more does Goku know from fighting Cell, anway? You need to battle someone to have a good grasp on their power now? This argument could work if we were talking about technique/skill. But strength? No. You don't even need to be near someone to feel how strong they are.

There is no "vagueness" about it - if he can sense ki, he can sense ki. And he knew that Cell's power was not genuine in his match against him, and that the maximum power was "Cell", when all was said and done. It was his natural strength, and it was what he ultimately turned out to be.

IIRC, Goku also doesn't claim Dabura is stronger than he thought, just that he's better than he thought.

Nope, Herms translated the original. He said Dabura was stronger, and the "he's 'tougher' than I thought" line was all Viz.

Well, he kind of does, considering he's not trained to be able to transform into SSJ2 at will and all.

He uses it effortlessly and confidently at the Budokai. He was sure that he could achieve SSJ2 after 7 years of not having done so.

He had no reason to be angry at that point, either. Videl was in no danger and was actually fully healed, and he wasn't even facing the guy that hurt her. If people think he can use some sort of residual anger to go SSJ2 there, in a much more easygoing match, I don't know why they can't assume that he'd use anger from his friends being in immediate life-or-death danger to go SSJ2 after ward. You can't have your pie and devour it too. Unless you're of the mind that he could've gone SSJ2 if he wanted, but just opted against it?

And moreover, Gohan says that he was angry, but couldn't be the way he was before. He's not talking about SSJ2, because he obviously could become SSJ2. He was sure of his ability to do so in the previous volume, and he didnt lose his ability to do so over the years. It wasn't out of his reach, is what I'm saying.

He was talking about the huge loss of power that came along with slacking off, since that's the only thing he lost and was incapable of tapping into. The transformation he had against Cell was still there, and he had recently used it. He wasn't talking about that. The power he had against Cell just wasn't there to begin with, which is what the whole line is centered around.

As for why he didn't use SSJ2, I've already covered that.

I don't see it. Can you reiterate?

They couldn't, we never saw Gohan's full SSJ1 power

This again.

Yes, we did. Why in the world would he not be at full-power against Cell? The guy that he just saw prove too powerful for his father, who was supposedly the strongest? Characters are always at full-power in fights, unless there's a reason to assume that they aren't.

And even if we throw all logic out the window and say Gohan was consciously suppressing himself, Cell still had a hell of a lot of power left in him, as well. I'd rather not play a baseless guessing game and go with what we know for certain.

Except that Dragonball is the whole package. Neither one 'supersedes' the other.

The story and the art don't agree with each other. No matter how you try to sugarcoat it, or respond with generic snide comments, that will never change.

Really now, so many statements don't need to be so skewed. It isn't worth it, after a certain point. The only reason I can think of as to why the meaning of direct statements need to be twisted around is because you've (not specifically Xyex) already decided Gohan to be SSJ1 no matter what, and just went back to look for things to support it.

- Goku said Dabura was as strong as Cell. But he was only talking about a weak version of Cell.
- Dabura was pulling his punches against Gohan. Even though, from all standpoints, he had no reason to do anything of the sort.
- When Goku said Dabura was stronger than he thought, he was only talking about magic. Though he was specifically making a reference to Dabura's power.
- Gohan needs anger to use SSJ2, although he used it with no such provocation at the Budokai, and even stated that he was already angry.
- When Gohan said he "couldn't be the way he was then", he was citing the SSJ2 transformation. Regardless of the fact that Gohan didn't show any such worry and used it for kicks one volume earlier, and proved that he could be SSJ2 if he wanted.
- Gohan and Dabura were only SSJ1-tier (and fairly low ones, at that), but when they fought the Fat Buu, they didn't get outright slaughtered for whatever reason.
-Kaioshin told Kibito that he didn't get to see how powerful Gohan really was. But Kaioshin's word holds 0 meaning, for he's a complete dunderhead.

The art is a huge factor. That, I would never try to deny. I was dead-set against the idea of Gohan being SSJ2 against Dabura/Buu for a long time, because it frankly made no sense whatsoever to me because Toriyama clearly drew him with a SSJ1 aura (one that SSJ2 Majin Vegeta briefly had, mind you), regardless of what the story seemed to say. But when that was the only solid reason I had for defending that argument, it was time to make a change.

I really don't think either option makes an overwhelming amount of sense, or should be taken as fact, for anyone. It's either the story or the art, and I think going with the statements makes the most sense. It does for me, anyway.

*goes back to listening to UVERworld's new album*

[Xyex]

This, quite frankly, sounds ridiculous.

It's far less ridiculous than the idea that Gohan lost nearly half of his power over the last seven years, and that as an SSJ2 now he's barely stronger than he was an SSJ1 at the Cell Games. If that were the case then SSJ1 Goku and SSJ1 Vegeta would both be stronger than SSJ2 Gohan at this point.

He knew exactly how strong both percentages were, and the attribute of fighting against one didn't mean whenever he referenced Cell from that point on, he had to be talking about that particular version of Cell, even though he knows that wasn't how strong Cell was. It wasn't who Cell was.

It's not even so much about the fact that he fought Cell at that power but that one someone references something/someone they refrence what they are most familiar with. Assuming that Goku must have been comparing Dabura to Perfect Cell at full power just because he mentioned Cell would be like assuming Goku must have been comparing Rildo to Super Buu 3 when he mentioned Buu, as opposed to the fat Mr. Buu who's been hanging around for the last 15 years.

If Goku had meant Cell's full power, why didn't he say "He's about as strong as this game named Cell was when he revealed his full power" instead of "He's about as strong as this guy named Cell that we fought seven years ago"?

There is no "vagueness" about it

Yeah, there's no vagueness about the fact Gohan was an SSJ1 against Dabura, but we still have people saying he was SSJ2. Go figure. :p

He uses it effortlessly and confidently at the Budokai. He was sure that he could achieve SSJ2 after 7 years of not having done so.

He had no reason to be angry at that point, either. Videl was in no danger and was actually fully healed, and he wasn't even facing the guy that hurt her. If people think he can use some sort of residual anger to go SSJ2 there, I don't know why they can't assume that he'd use anger from his friends being in immediate life-or-death danger to go SSJ2 after ward.

I definitely wouldn't call that 'effortlessly'. Plus, Gohan was given time to just stand around and transform with Kibito, so of course he could get there. He was not given such time with Dabura. Also, the Spoppovitch beat down of Videl was far more recent to his fight with Kibito than what had happened to Piccolo and Krillin was to his fight with Dabura. Plus, there was no immediate 'life or death danger' to... well, anyone at this point. Kaioshin was the only one even remotely concerned. The Saiya-jins were just treating it like a fun day at the beach. Amount of time since Piccolo was turned to stone + lack of true concern + lack of solid motivation + lack of time to stand around and power-up to get to SSJ2 = no SSJ2. It's really quite simple and pretty obviously outlined in series.

And moreover, Gohan says that he was angry, but couldn't be the way he was before. He's not talking about SSJ2, because he obviously could become SSJ2. He was sure of his ability to do so in the previous volume, and he didnt lose his ability to do so over the years. It wasn't out of his reach, is what I'm saying.

Except that it clearly was out of reach for him at that time, which is what the manga clearly demonstrates to us. Yeah, he was worked up, he was angry, but he wasn't angry enough to draw out his power and go SSJ2. He may have been sure of himself earlier, but he was clearly doubting himself later.

He was talking about the huge loss of power that came along with slacking off,

Nearly half of what he used to have? I'm sorry, but he doesn't indicate he's lost nearly that much power.

And the only thing that supports SSJ2 Gohan vs. Dabura is the Daizenshuu, and the Daizenshuu claims that Gohan's power hasn't changed at all since the Cell Games.

As for why he didn't use SSJ2, I've already covered that.

I don't see it. Can you reiterate?

Did so earlier in this post, but I'll do it again. Amount of time since Piccolo was turned to stone + lack of true concern + lack of solid motivation + lack of time to stand around and power-up to get to SSJ2 = no SSJ2.

Yes, we did.

No, we didn't.

Why in the world would he not be at full-power against Cell? The guy that he just saw prove too powerful for his father, who was supposedly the strongest? Characters are always at full-power, unless there's a reason to assume that they aren't.

Why? Oh, maybe because he can't use his full power at will? Hell, IIRC, Gohan was never even said to have powered-up from his 'resting' level during his 'fight' with Cell. And he never actually fought Cell seriously, either. Not until going SSJ2.

And even if we throw all logic out the window and say Gohan was consciously suppressing himself, Cell still had a hell of power left in him, as well. I'd rather not play a baseless guessing game and go with what we know for certain.

Gohan subconciously suppresses himself. He's been doing it since he was 4. It's a running theme with him. There's no guessing involved in that, unlike your stance that Gohan has to be SSJ2, and Toriyama simply "forgot" to draw him that way, despite doing so with Goku and Vegeta at the same time as not doing so with Gohan.

The story and the art don't agree with each other. No matter how you try to sugarcoat it, or respond with your typical snide comments, that will never change.

They do, actually, if you bother to put a few minutes of logical thought into it.

Really now, so many statements don't need to be so skewed. It isn't worth it, after a certain point. The only reason I can think of as to why the meaning of direct statements need to be twisted around is because you've (not specifically Xyex) already decided Gohan to be SSJ1 no matter what, and just went back to look for things to support it.

Amusingly enough, I was about to make the same statement for those who think Gohan has to be SSJ2 at this point.

Anyway, I'm not going to bother debating this any further, it's not going to go anywhere.