Why is the "FRIEZA" spelling wrong?

[Amigo Ten]

No, it's a raw kanzenban scan.

[Gaffer Tape]

Okay. Just checking. Still, it shows that Toriyama himself isn't even consistent when writing his characters' names in a "crazy moon language" far removed from his own and isn't necessarily the most reliable source to go to on this subject.

[linkdude20002001]

Well, now I'm all confuzzled. Now I need to figure out which spellings are the most used. If he used "Gokuh" several times, but "Goku" only once, then I'll stick with that. Same for Kulilin/Kuririn. If I end up having to compromise with Kurilin, I can handle that. It brings out the puns better that way anyways.

[Amigo Ten]

When was Gokuh used?

[Gaffer Tape]

Well, now I'm all confuzzled. Now I need to figure out which spellings are the most used. If he used "Gokuh" several times, but "Goku" only once, then I'll stick with that. Same for Kulilin/Kuririn. If I end up having to compromise with Kurilin, I can handle that. It brings out the puns better that way anyways.

Huzzah! That's the way to do it! Look at all the facts and use that information to come to reasonable conclusion based on romanization/word history/pun usage, even if it means having to take a second look at things you're used to.

Oh, to Amigo Ten: Gokuh was used on Goku's spacesuit in an original image used in one of the tankobon, I believe. The anime ended up using this design for the filler episode where Goku has to repair his ship.

[Olivier Hague]

since "bura" is the Japanese way of saying the English word "bra," and the joke is clearly the the undergarment, it's wrong in the sense that it misses the point

If the whole point was about the pun, that would be a problem. But nobody cares about the puns, in the context of the story. So Toriyama could decide that the name is really spelled, say, "Bula" in alphabet, and it wouldn't be a problem. Sure, the pun on "bra" wouldn't be as apparent in alphabet as it was in kana, but those puns are merely inside jokes. Heck, some of them are even downright obscure in the first place.
So when some people make it sound like it's all about the puns, like "oh, my god, if you do that, the pun isn't quite as apparent! the author can't do that, it ruins everything!", I just don't... Ah, well. ^___^;

My name is Josh. It's spelled "Josh." While you could get the same pronunciation out of "Jahsh," "Jawsh," or "Jash," my name is Josh. It comes from "Joshua" which is a Christian biblical name and it was chosen deliberately by my religious parents. To spell my name any other way may be "right" in terms of how it's pronounced, but when you spell it any other way it loses its direct connection to what inspired my name.

What makes the spelling "Josh" correct and the other spellings ("Jahsh", "Jawsh", "Jash") wrong is the fact that you parents meant for your name to be spelled as "Josh", and it was their prerogative, as they're the ones who gave you your name.

Had they decided to spell your name "Jash", it would have been "Jash", and "Josh" would have been wrong.
Let's imagine that were the case, for a while: your parents named you "Jash", pronounced the same as "Josh"...
Now, if I didn't know about that name spelling, chances are I'd assume/guess (from the pronunciation, your nationality, etc?) that your name was spelled "Josh". There would probably be other possibilities, sure, but that would be my best guess.
'Turns out your parents actually named you "Jash". Oh.
Well, even if I were to argue that "Josh" is just a lot more common, would make more sense considering your nationality, or whatever, it wouldn't matter. "Josh", my best guess, would still be wrong.

Now, apply that to Dragon Ball... Who named the characters? You? Me?

it shows that Toriyama himself isn't even consistent when writing his characters' names in a "crazy moon language" far removed from his own and isn't necessarily the most reliable source to go to on this subject.

But who would be more reliable, then? I mean, they're his names. ^__^;
The fact he's not consistent about that name is unfortunate, as that means its spelling is up for debate... But no matter which spelling we decide to use in the end, there's no way we can just state that it's "the correct spelling". That's simply not our call to make. The most sensible/"logical" spelling according to us? Our best guess? Sure. But "the correct spelling"? Nah...

Huzzah! That's the way to do it! Look at all the facts and use that information to come to reasonable conclusion based on romanization/word history/pun usage, even if it means having to take a second look at things you're used to.

Unfortunately, Toriyama spelled very few character names in alphabet, really (and as we've seen, when he does, he's not necessarily consistent either)...
I personally extend the scope to all official Japanese merchandise (the argument being that since it's official merchandise, Toriyama might have something to do with it... hey, you never know! ^^; ), but I realize that's not quite the same as "the Word of God"...

Outside of that, we're pretty much left to our own devices and "best guesses"...

[Amigo Ten]

Is there a compilation of all the alphabet spellings used in the manga anywhere? I was thinking of going through and picking them all out just to fill up some of my spare time.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Let's see, there was Son Goku/Gokuh, Bulma, Yamcha, Lunch, Kuririn/Kulilin, Yajirove, Son Gohan, Trunks (TRUNKS THE STORY was written out in English on the title page), Mr. Satan, Jewel (a fighter at the 25th Tenkaichi-Budokai; his name was written on a sign in the crowd), Son Goten (his shirt that he wore for the last couple of chapters said GOTEN SON on it).

There might be a few others I haven't thought of. Toriyama likes to draw his characters in vehicles/clothing/etc. with their names on it, so I'm sure he's written names like Kame-Sennin or Piccolo somewhere, too. I'd have to take a look through Daizenshuu 1.

[Dayspring]

Well, now I'm all confuzzled. Now I need to figure out which spellings are the most used. If he used "Gokuh" several times, but "Goku" only once, then I'll stick with that. Same for Kulilin/Kuririn. If I end up having to compromise with Kurilin, I can handle that. It brings out the puns better that way anyways.

Huzzah! That's the way to do it! Look at all the facts and use that information to come to reasonable conclusion based on romanization/word history/pun usage, even if it means having to take a second look at things you're used to.

Actually, doesn't 'Krillin' work perfectly, too? 'Kurilin' JUST doesn't quite work in English, because the U is silent in the original but not the transliteration. So you'd drop it for 'Krilin', but end up with a mispronunciation of his name (as 'kri' is pronounced 'cry'), so you either backtrack to 'Kurilin' or tack on an additional L. Did I do that right?

[linkdude20002001]

Well, the first "u" in クリリン (Kuririn) is kinda there. It's just very faint. And when I pronounce Kurilin, it sounds like I'm saying "Krillin" anyways. Why must Toriyama makes things so difficult? Lol.

[Gaffer Tape]

Because there's too much to quote:

To Olivier: You're right. It's not always all about the pun. But they do count for something, and, in this case, since the name is the word, it seems to me it shouldn't be obfuscated like some of the others.

And as for how reliable Toriyama should be considered? Well, he should definitely be the primary source for all the kana and kanji representations of his characters' names. Think about it this way. If you were to write a book, obviously you'd know better than most people how to spell your characters' names... in English. But assuming someone suddenly told you to translate those characters' names into Pinyin or... say, Klingon, or any other language with a different writing system you're not fluent in, would you necessarily get it right? Would you necessarily know how to translate inside jokes while keeping things like pronounciation and spelling equivalent?

To Dayspring: Kuririn to Krillin is another one of those, like Bulma, that this thread has made me think about. And while "Krillin" is a decent translation of the romanization itself, it removes the pun in the process, so I think that Kuririn is more accurate. linkdude's positing of Kurilin might be even more accurate, if Herms is correct in his assumption that his name is a pun on both kuri (chestnut) and Shaolin.

[Olivier Hague]

as for how reliable Toriyama should be considered? Well, he should definitely be the primary source for all the kana and kanji representations of his characters' names. Think about it this way. If you were to write a book, obviously you'd know better than most people how to spell your characters' names... in English. But assuming someone suddenly told you to translate those characters' names into Pinyin or... say, Klingon, or any other language with a different writing system you're not fluent in, would you necessarily get it right?

But Japanese people know the Latin alphabet. They use it in their everyday life.
(and we're not talking about a specific language, here: just the Latin alphabet, a writing system)

[Gaffer Tape]

Yeah, but like you said earlier in this thread (it was you, wasn't it?) that doesn't necessarily mean they know how to use it properly in every instance... look at their t-shirts! And it's especially sticky in these situations, since these are (often) English loan words translated and altered to fit the Japanese writing system through katakana, sometimes altered again to create a new name for the character, and then translated back into English letters! For names like "Trunks," "Cell," and "Bra," whose names are the words they're named for, it's a no-brainer... for us, at least (who knows if it would necessarily be so in every case for Toriyama since he'd surely be used to the loan word alterations, like "torankusu," the closest approximation his language can make to the English word "trunks." Would he necessarily know which vowels to contract, and which are supposed to be in the original English word? He could just as easily have accidentally ended up writing his name in English as "Tornks". And some might argue that that's technically a correct way of translating that group of sounds... but it's not the English word it was originally based on, and it's probably not what Toriyama would have intended had he known better. Granted, this is all speculation on my part, and of course the above was just a hypothetical example.)

[RoarkVegeta]

Well, simply, that's not his name.

フリーザ = Freeza

Viz has always gone with Freeza, but I will NEVER understand why FUNimation decided to go with Freeza. Same with Ti en. Or Chaozu, or the Ginyu Tokusentai.

Do you even know Japanese? フリーザ is "Furiiza" which can be transliterated to "Freeza" or "Frieza".

The key thing here is that the English word 'freezer' when transliterated into Japanese would be written as フリーザー(furiizaa) but the character's name is written with a short 'a' sound instead: フリーザ(furiiza). So, how should this name be romanized? It's 'freezer' with a short 'a' sound instead of a long 'a' sound. Freezer becomes 'Freeza'.

That's it. To suggest that there should be any other change to the name is baseless. There's no reason to try to shoehorn an 'i' into the name.

Okay yes, "Freeza" is more correct. I know it and everyone else knows it, but your arguement as to why ""Frieza" is incorrect is weak.

You're assuming that the "ii" in his Japanese name can only be adapted as "ee". Well yes, it would fit the pun better if you adapted it like that, but it isn't necessary. So there's nothing wrong with adapting "ii" as "ie" or even just leaving as "ii" because they all make the same sound.

No, I don't. Neither do you, apparently.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

No, I don't. Neither do you, apparently.

Uh, I do. I've been learning it for about a year and a half and can speak it pretty well.

[RoarkVegeta]

No, I don't. Neither do you, apparently.

Uh, I do. I've been learning it for about a year and a half and can speak it pretty well.

Then why are people who know the language saying that your Japanese is kind of, awful?

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Then why are people who know the language saying that your Japanese is kind of, awful?

Yeah, I'll admit that I have screwed up a few times when it comes to romanization/transliteration, but that has nothing to do with my fluency in the actual spoken language. Plus, I was never actually taught that stuff so I had to learn it myself, which is probably why I keep screwing up in it.

[Olivier Hague]

Yeah, but like you said earlier in this thread (it was you, wasn't it?)

(maybe not ^^; )

that doesn't necessarily mean they know how to use it properly in every instance... look at their t-shirts!

We're talking about a Japanese author spelling names of his own creation in alphabet.
What does that author need to know?
English? Why? Is that really necessary?
Does it matter if the names aren't always spelled exactly like the words they're based on, in alphabet? Would that necessarily be "a mistake"? Considering Toriyama isn't above tweaking the kana spellings, I wouldn't think so. Considering the characters never seem to acknowledge the puns, I wouldn't think so.

Would he necessarily know which vowels to contract, and which are supposed to be in the original English word?

Not necessarily, no. Does he really need to though?

[linkdude20002001]

Considering the characters never seem to acknowledge the puns, I wouldn't think so.

Well, there is that one time where Bulma tells Gokuh her name. In the Japanese version, she says her name is "Buruma", so basically she's saying "my name is Bloomers". Thus, Gokuh laughs at her name. That's really the only time that happens, though (as far as I know).

[Olivier Hague]

there is that one time where Bulma tells Gokuh her name. In the Japanese version, she says her name is "Buruma", so basically she's saying "my name is Bloomers". Thus, Gokuh laughs at her name.

Well, it's not explicitely stated that he laughs because she's named after undergarment...
And like I said in another topic, would he even know what bloomers are, when he doesn't know what girls are? ;þ