Why is the "FRIEZA" spelling wrong?

[Gaffer Tape]

Would he necessarily know which vowels to contract, and which are supposed to be in the original English word?

Not necessarily, no. Does he really need to though?

Yes. Again, see the parenthetical part of my post, my "Tornks" example. And going back to my original analogy, I know a bit when it comes to the writing and transcribing of kana, very little when it comes to kanji. Even though I know the characters I've created better than anybody, I'd be much more confident to let someone who was relatively fluent in both languages (like Julian or Simmons, for example) translate for me than do it myself because I admit I'm not an expert. I wouldn't be the go-to guy for that. And, based on the inconsistent English examples present in the series, I don't think Toriyama is either. Of course that's not a dig at him. I wouldn't expect him to be a master of the English language or to grasp the subtleties between two distinctly different sets of phonemes. Likewise, just because he wrote a ten-year long series about characters who utilize martial arts, I wouldn't necessarily go to Toriyama for martial arts instruction.

(And sorry if I incorrectly attributed that t-shirt analogy to you.)

[Silver Sinspawn]

So... Every name is right, and no name is right?
I guess only Toriyama knows.

[Olivier Hague]

Would he necessarily know which vowels to contract, and which are supposed to be in the original English word?

Not necessarily, no. Does he really need to though?

Yes.

Well, I disagree. ^_^;

Again, see the parenthetical part of my post, my "Tornks" example.

Do you really think Japanese people are so clueless about the Latin alphabet that they would think rendering "トラン" as "torn" sounds just fine?
Not saying there couldn't be mistakes, but that's a bit of an extreme example...

based on the inconsistent English examples present in the series

Once again, you're talking about English, a language, when it should really just be about the Latin alphabet, a writing system.
They're names, not English words. They may be based on English words, they may even be spelled the same sometimes, that doesn't mean they are those words. And that means you can't just point at your English dictionary and claim Toriyama got it wrong when differences arise.
For "Red Ribon", yes. For "Well Come", sure. Those were obviously meant to be the actual English words in the context of the story. But character names? Simply because of puns that aren't acknowledged in-story?

(And sorry if I incorrectly attributed that t-shirt analogy to you.)

(No problem. ^^ )

[linkdude20002001]

Well, it's not explicitely stated that he laughs because she's named after undergarment...
And like I said in another topic, would he even know what bloomers are, when he doesn't know what girls are? ;þ

It's a gag manga; what do you expect? Lol. Toriyama wants Gokuh to laugh at a name like "Bloomers", so he does. Just like how Gokuh ends up in Penguin Village!

Do you really think Japanese people are so clueless about the Latin alphabet that they wouldn't realize "torn" is an odd rendering of "トラン"?

Not only that, but they wouldn't write it that way (at least I hope). Tornks would be written トーンクス (Tōnkusu).

[Gaffer Tape]

Again, see the parenthetical part of my post, my "Tornks" example.

Do you really think Japanese people are so clueless about the Latin alphabet that they would think rendering "トラン" as "torn" sounds just fine?
Not saying there couldn't be mistakes, but that's a bit of an extreme example...

Well, going back to the original concept of this thread, FUNimation did render "Furiiza" as "Fr ieza," pronounce "Dabra" as "Duh BOO ruh," render Paikuhan as "P ikkon," etc. Actually, Dabra is probably the perfect example to illustrate what I mean. There's a pun on an English word (an English nonsense part word, mind you, and probably parodying Latin, but still English and still a Latin-based alphabet) that English-speaking natives weren't able to figure out once it had been rendered in Japanese phonemes (again, phonemes, not language, like you keep trying to point out) and then back into English. They didn't know which vowel sounds to keep or drop, so I don't know why suggesting that Japanese people making the same kind of mistake is such an "extreme" idea. Granted, I'll give you that Toriyama probably knows more of what he's going for than FUNimation would, but my point is the craziness that can ensue when you're playing translation telephone with words (and names) being shifted around to accommodate different writing systems and then back again.

[Olivier Hague]

Well, it's not explicitely stated that he laughs because she's named after undergarment...
And like I said in another topic, would he even know what bloomers are, when he doesn't know what girls are? ;þ

It's a gag manga; what do you expect? Lol. Toriyama wants Gokuh to laugh at a name like "Bloomers", so he does. Just like how Gokuh ends up in Penguin Village!

That's an entirely valid retort. ^^

Well, going back to the original concept of this thread, FUNimation did render "Furiiza" as "Fr ieza," pronounce "Dabra" as "Duh BOO ruh," render Paikuhan as "P ikkon," etc.

For "Freeza", they picked an alphabet spelling that fits with the kana, even if it wasn't the one most were accustomed to.
For "Dabra", as it happens, official Japanese merchandise spell the name as "Darbura", and you can't argue that's necessarily wrong.
For "Paikuhan", they just completely changed the name around like they did for some other characters.
And... Well, I'm afraid I don't really see your point, here, sorry. ^^;;;

There's a pun on an English word (an English nonsense part word, mind you, and probably parodying Latin, but still English and still a Latin-based alphabet) that English-speaking natives weren't able to figure out once it had been rendered in Japanese phonemes

Well, it's not specifically English... But yeah, it's used by English-speakers, too.
Still. That name is just a pun on that word. So keeping the "u" sound from "ダーブラ" isn't necessarily wrong.

They didn't know which vowel sounds to keep or drop

Neither do you. Unless you're Toriyama, that is. ^^;

[Gaffer Tape]

And... Well, I'm afraid I don't really see your point, here, sorry. ^^;;;

Again, quite simply, that playing telephone with different languages gets wonky results.

Neither do you. Unless you're Toriyama, that is. ^^;

You're right. I don't. But I don't see any compelling evidence that he did either yet I do see enough to suggest otherwise. Except in his own language (and phoneme system), in which he is the definitive source. But when some of his examples of English seem to contradict his own statements on where his names came from... well, it could just be him being Toriyama and forgetting everything, but then again, it could simply be because he's not fluent in English.

But now we're just going in circles. I'm not sure how I can make my opinion make sense to you. It seems fairly straightforward to me: the Japanese man just might not be an expert on how to translate his own names into a foreign writing system.

[Olivier Hague]

And... Well, I'm afraid I don't really see your point, here, sorry. ^^;;;

Again, quite simply, that playing telephone with different languages gets wonky results.

And I'm not sure why you're talking about that, considering this is about how a Japanese author would spell names of his own creation in alphabet. How is that "playing telephone"?
The author doesn't have to follow the "rules of thumb" you've devised on your own (which (unless I'm mistaken, in which case feel free to correct me) would be something like "when the name is spelled exactly like the word it's based on in kana, keep it the same in alphabet as well... when the kana spelling is partly tweaked, try and tweak accordingly the corresponding parts in alphabet"). He doesn't have to care about the alphabet spellings of the non-Japanese words his names are based on. He can do pretty much whatever he wants: they're his names.

I don't see any compelling evidence that he did either yet I do see enough to suggest otherwise.

Then again, what would you consider evidence that the "U" sound in "ダーブラ" is to be kept in alphabet? And where's the evidence that suggests otherwise?

[Gaffer Tape]

Sigh. Tired. Must go to sleep. So let me just simply say that, yes, Toriyama is free to use whatever rules he wants to use in naming his characters. That's not what I'm arguing against. I just don't know why you would assume he'd be competent in carrying over his own rules to a totally different (and foreign) writing system.

And, yes, when you take a word from one language, adapt it to another language's writing system, modify it into a joke, and then adapt that back into its original writing system, that is essentially "playing telephone," especially considering that the first step wasn't even taken by Toriyama himself.

[Olivier Hague]

I just don't know why you would assume he'd be competent in carrying over his own rules to a totally different (and foreign) writing system.

It's not that foreign, really...
And I wouldn't assume he has his own rules either... Again, he can do pretty much whatever he wants: he's the author and they're his names.

when you take a word from one language, adapt it to another language's writing system, modify it into a joke, and then adapt that back into its original writing system, that is essentially "playing telephone," especially considering that the first step wasn't even taken by Toriyama himself.

But who took that first step (converting the alphabet word into kana), in your opinion? Unreliable people?

As for the fact the names are adapted "back" to Latin alphabet when they were based on words from languages that use that alphabet... I'm not sure how that's relevant. Toriyama doesn't have to care about the original spellings of the words he based his names on.

[Gaffer Tape]

And I wouldn't assume he has his own rules either... Again, he can do pretty much whatever he wants: he's the author and they're his names.

So by that logic you mean he could call the character "Buruma" in kana but then write her name as "Steve" in the alphabet? After all, he doesn't have to have rules, and he can do what he wants. They're his own names, right? And before you think I'm being ridiculous, well, I am being ridiculous but to show a point: there has to be some set of rules followed in translating names from one language to another... well, actually or we wouldn't even be talking about this right now, and we could all just call her "Steve" and Goku "DeeDee".

But who took that first step (converting the alphabet word into kana), in your opinion? Unreliable people?

I have no idea. I don't assume they're unreliable people. They don't have to be unreliable people. But it does mean that intent can be lost along the way when one person in the chain fails to recognize the full sequence of events, be it Toriyama, be it FUNimation, be it the fans. And let me clarify by saying I'm not stating that FUNimation or the fans are any kind of official source on par with Toriyama. I'm simply using them as an example that even native English speakers and writers can miss the point with words based in their own language and mistranslate something. And since we're talking about Toriyama doing the exact same thing (translating words into English), I feel it's a fair comparison to make in order to fully clarify what I'm trying to say.

And again, I agree with you that Toriyama doesn't have to have full knowledge of the English word to make a character name of it. He could be incorrect, and we still have a name. And I'm not suggesting we change any of his characters' names to make them more accurate to the word they're based on than he himself deigned (not taking the word back to Freezer, for example). But since he may or may not be well-versed in the English alphabet, he might not be as successful at bringing his OWN intentions over in that way.

At any rate, I'm done with this thread. I've had a good time debating with you, but, like I said a few posts ago, we're just going around in circles now. I've said my piece. Whether you choose to accept my opinion is up to you (although I feel you've been playing devil's advocate with me for a while, which is okay because I have been too to an extent), but I've laid it out in as pure and simple terms many, many times as much as I care to. Let me just sum up with this:

When Toriyama decided it would be cool to write his characters' names on their clothes in that "cool-looking moon language," he probably put in far less time deliberating how to do it than we have in this thread.

fin.

[Olivier Hague]

So by that logic you mean he could call the character "Buruma" in kana but then write her name as "Steve" in the alphabet?

Technically, yes. What are the chances of that happening though? ^^

there has to be some set of rules followed in translating names from one language to another...

"Transliterating names from one writing system to another". :þ
And no, you don't really need precise rules for that. Just some very basic knowledge of the Latin alphabet would be enough for a Japanese author to come up with alphabet spellings of his character names.

I agree with you that Toriyama doesn't have to have full knowledge of the English word to make a character name of it. He could be incorrect, and we still have a name.

Then again, who's to say he'd be incorrect? You'd need to know what his intentions are...

since he may or may not be well-versed in the English alphabet, he might not be as successful at bringing his OWN intentions over in that way.

Well, I guess I just don't think Japanese people are that unfamiliar with the Latin alphabet... ^^;

I feel you've been playing devil's advocate with me for a while

Oh, I've been playing devil's advocate with pretty much everybody since the beginning, in this topic. ^__^
But I see so many people claiming "such spelling is correct, and such other spelling is wrong" when most of them are really just guesses anyway... It kinda bothers me.

Let me just sum up with this:
When Toriyama decided it would be cool to write his characters' names on their clothes in that "cool-looking moon language," he probably put in far less time deliberating how to do it than we have in this thread.

That sounds quite likely, indeed. ^^

[Dayspring]

I feel you've been playing devil's advocate with me for a while

Oh, I've been playing devil's advocate with pretty much everybody since the beginning, in this topic. ^__^
But I see so many people claiming "such spelling is correct, and such other spelling is wrong" when most of them are really just guesses anyway... It kinda bothers me.

Same here. The thread's provided great proof for why Furiiza is obtained and how it's a pun on ''Freezer'', but no proof why it should be exactly ''Freeza'' when said in English, as any accurate spelling that preserves the pronunciation of Furiiza should be viable. ''Frieza'' isn't wrong because it isn't closer to ''Freezer'', it's wrong because it makes you say ''Fry-zuh'', which is incorrect. That's the real answer to the initial question. As for why ''Freeza'' is correct, well that's because we all agree it should be. ''Fureeza'', ''Friiza'' and even ''Furiiza'' are all viable, too. General concensus is what makes ''Freeza'' the 'most' correct of the four, while a different reason altogether is what makes ''Frieza'' completely incorrect.

[linkdude20002001]

F rieza is pronounced fry-zuh? I know fries is pronounced that way, but most English words pronounce ie with a long E sound. Now, Freiza would be pronounced fry-zuh, but that isn't how FUNi spells it.

[Amigo Ten]

Freeza would most likely be pronounced Fray-za. "ie" and "ei" have various pronunciations any loads of words.

[linkdude20002001]

Lol. You got filtered.

I believe you meant Freiza..., right? If so, well, I'm pretty sure most English words would pronounce that fry-zuh (thanks to German).

[Amigo Ten]

Well, it's pronounced that way height. But then we have weight as well, where it's an "ay" sound.

[VegettoEX]

You'll notice I held off on posting anything for so many pages... it really wasn't worth it for me to contribute .

I'm growing to really appreciate some of Olivier's intentionally-only-playing-devil's-advocate posts, since it's really keeping everyone on their toes. At the end of the day, though, I like that you can still tell where his views fall...!

Tossing it all the way back to what Hujio was talking about earlier, it's less about "correct" and more about "logical" and "god dammit, this is such an awful tossback to a time when ONE COMPANY did this and there's almost no way they'd do something like it today and it sucks that it's so prevalent".

Is "FRIEZA"... "correct"...? Sure. So is "Phreeza" and, lord help me, "Phrieza". Don't forget about "Woorong" (Oolong) and "Gulud" (Ghurd), too! I don't think any of us are so crazy that we wouldn't admit that. Should you write them like that? Well, "should" is pretty subjective (though you can probably guess where the official Daizenshuu EX subjectivity-stance falls). This also heavily ties in with pronunciation, something I was just writing about in another post... but that's already been discussed to death in this thread, too.

It's about "logic" and "most obvious", more than "correct". That's the stuff I focused on in my blog post, and what I feel takes precedence over all the other stuffage. I could go on, but I'd just be regurgitating things *I* already talked about, and things *everyone else* has already talked about.

[Olivier Hague]

Is "FRIEZA"... "correct"...? Sure. So is "Phreeza" and, lord help me, "Phrieza".

Why stop there? "Hlixa"! And his father "Chorrudot"! ^__^

[Adamant]

So by that logic you mean he could call the character "Buruma" in kana but then write her name as "Steve" in the alphabet? After all, he doesn't have to have rules, and he can do what he wants. They're his own names, right? And before you think I'm being ridiculous, well, I am being ridiculous but to show a point: there has to be some set of rules followed in translating names from one language to another... well, actually or we wouldn't even be talking about this right now, and we could all just call her "Steve" and Goku "DeeDee".

Well, over in Pokemon land, we got a character named レックウザ, whose official romanized name is Rayquaza. Make sense of that, if you can. It makes "Pik-kon" look sensible.

(and on a lesser note, the official romanization for シェイミ is Shaymin. Where did that n come from?)