Super Saiyan Goku and Freeza Battle Power Debate

[Thanos6]

Well, he could sense just how insanely strong Freeza was from within the tank. He knew without the Kaioken he wouldn't have a chance, so he "turned it on" before he even got to the battlefield, just in case Freeza tried to go for an instant kill.

[Kaboom]

Which would work as an explanation, except Kaio-Ken doesn't work like that and had never been hinted that it does. It always works in bursts, or forcibly sustained for a short while like against Ginyu.

[jackjack]

Well, he could sense just how insanely strong Freeza was from within the tank.

He could? How? Freeza was only around the 3 million mark at the time.

[Kaboom]

Well, he could sense just how insanely strong Freeza was from within the tank.

He could? How? Freeza was only around the 3 million mark at the time.

Which is why a Goku who's supposedly only at 300,000 would need the Kaio-Ken x10 to be "switched on" to match him.

[jackjack]

Oh, but Goku was holding back, right? Holding back what?

[Rocketman]

People still think Freeza's power wasn't in the hundred millions? Wow.

I refuse to believe that a dude who maxes out at 120,000,000 is worried about a race that putters about around 1,200.

I mean, it doesn't make much sense either way - Prince Vegeta was the most powerful Saiyan who ever lived besides the Legend, and he couldn't even break 200,000, less than half of Freeza's "sitting around with my thumb up mah butt" power - but still, some silliness is better than complete silliness.

[Savage68]

People still think Freeza's power wasn't in the hundred millions? Wow.

I refuse to believe that a dude who maxes out at 120,000,000 is worried about a race that putters about around 1,200.

I mean, it doesn't make much sense either way - Prince Vegeta was the most powerful Saiyan who ever lived besides the Legend, and he couldn't even break 200,000, less than half of Freeza's "sitting around with my thumb up mah butt" power - but still, some silliness is better than complete silliness.

We know. That's why it's the silliest of all to believe base Goku was weaker than form 1 Freeza, and even though everyone (including Goku himself) was surprised at how massively powerful he had become...but he was still way weaker than Vegeta and Piccolo.

That doesn't add up, nor does the idea of using Kaio-ken from the beginning of a fight (or even before the fight began, as some purport), for the entire duration of the fight. And it was invisible on top of that.

[Amigo Ten]

Freeza wasn't bothered about the Saiyans at the time. That is, what they were capable of at the time didn't bother him, but at the time he was still worried, because of what he feared they might grow into. It was noted that as a whole the Saiyans were getting stronger, with more and more exceptional warriors were appearing. And all the while there's the Super Saiyan legend lurking in the background.

That's what he was really worried about. And rightfully so too, given what happens when a Super Saiyan finally does emerge. So he just wiped 'em out before anything could happen.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, what Freeza feared was the Saiyans' potential for growth, which they were already starting to show in people like Vegeta and Bardock. We the readers saw as well as he did the fruits of that potential in Goku and Vegeta, especially when the former actually became a Super Saiyan.

[Dayspring]

Freeza wasn't afraid of the Saiyans for their strength, he was afraid of their growth, because it implied that the possibility of the SSJ, who would be well above 120 million could exist.

Personally I blame Toriyama for not caring how irrealistic it might seem. It would have been amazing if Freeza's 100% was the 530,000 he referenced earlier. Instead, we get Goku > Vegeta > 1,000,000 and that Goku x 50 = SSJ. If you ignore daizenshuu BPs, you still get BPs waaaaaaaayy over 40 million.

[Nazi Cola]

People still think Freeza's power wasn't in the hundred millions? Wow.

I refuse to believe that a dude who maxes out at 120,000,000 is worried about a race that putters about around 1,200.

I mean, it doesn't make much sense either way - Prince Vegeta was the most powerful Saiyan who ever lived besides the Legend, and he couldn't even break 200,000, less than half of Freeza's "sitting around with my thumb up mah butt" power - but still, some silliness is better than complete silliness.

That's why we have Zenkais.

[Rocketman]

People still think Freeza's power wasn't in the hundred millions? Wow.

I refuse to believe that a dude who maxes out at 120,000,000 is worried about a race that putters about around 1,200.

I mean, it doesn't make much sense either way - Prince Vegeta was the most powerful Saiyan who ever lived besides the Legend, and he couldn't even break 200,000, less than half of Freeza's "sitting around with my thumb up mah butt" power - but still, some silliness is better than complete silliness.

That's why we have Zenkais.

Goku abuses the zenkai more than any Saiyan ever had or ever could (thanks to the no-wait-for-healing Senzu). He trains in gravity ten times higher than the Saiyans lived in. He's the most powerful Saiyan to have ever lived when he arrives to fight Freeza, and he's twenty-five times stronger than the #2 strongest being in the universe (Ginyu).

He's less than 3% of Freeza's full power.

[Amigo Ten]

Even with the 12'000'000 and 300'000 figures, all of that is still true (apart form being 25x stronger than Ginyu of course).

[Nazi Cola]

Goku abuses the zenkai more than any Saiyan ever had or ever could (thanks to the no-wait-for-healing Senzu). He trains in gravity ten times higher than the Saiyans lived in. He's the most powerful Saiyan to have ever lived when he arrives to fight Freeza, and he's twenty-five times stronger than the #2 strongest being in the universe (Ginyu).

He's less than 3% of Freeza's full power.

I wouldn't say less entirely. I'd say they're about square even with 3%.

Still, it'd be asinine for Goku to only be 300k. After all the training he'd done and all the Zenkais he'd abused, to be under Freeza's first form power is, quite frankly, downright idiotic to me. Goku's stronger than Vegeta and Vegeta was tangoing dangerously close to First Form Freeza until he tired out.

300k just doesn't line up with what we're shown in the manga,

[Rocketman]

I wouldn't say less entirely. I'd say they're about square even with 3%.

3% of 120,000,000 is 3,600,000.

Still, it'd be asinine for Goku to only be 300k.

I want to point out here that I don't argue for the mistranslated numbers. I argue against the Daizenshuu numbers because they make no sense.

After all the training he'd done and all the Zenkais he'd abused, to be under Freeza's first form power is, quite frankly, downright idiotic to me.

All Goku's training and abused zenkais put him at 90,000. It's only that one bullshit magical is-it-beer-thirty-already? zenkai after the Ginyu fight that springs him from 90,000 to (supposedly) 3,000,000.

[Savage68]

All Goku's training and abused zenkais put him at 90,000. It's only that one bullshit magical is-it-beer-thirty-already? zenkai after the Ginyu fight that springs him from 90,000 to (supposedly) 3,000,000.

Wait a minute...

A DB character got a highly unlikely and just downright ridiculous power boost as a plot device?

That's how the story works. It doesn't matter if you like it or not; Goku's power was higher than Piccolo's and Vegeta upon leaving the healing tank. Zenkais were never supposed to be easy to guess, either. They were random, and the largest one was for the guy that was closest to becoming a Super Saiyan. Not a big surprise there.

If you think base Goku = a mere 300,000, what is your explanation for everyone's astonishment at his base power? Or how he could possibly sustain an invisible Kaio-ken for the length of a whole fight? Is there anything for your argument, and not against the alternative?

[Kid Buu]

I'm going a bit off topic here but here is something that I want to bring up.

Second Form Freeza was over a million, who powered up twice in this form, was inferior to Piccolo, and Piccolo couldn't even see Fourth Form Freeza's attacks but Vegeta could. So we all agree Vegeta far exceeds a million right?

If we go by the Super Saiyan = 50X, then even if Base Vegeta during the Android arc was only at 2 million his Super Saiyan form would be at 100 million. Android 18 would exceed this because she defeated Super Saiyan Vegeta. Putting Freeza at only 12 million would mean the Androids could be potentially over eight times the strength of Freeza.

Oh and I'm really bad at debating, I except this to be post to be completely dissected but this is just something I thought upon.

[Rocketman]

If we go by the Super Saiyan = 50X, then even if Base Vegeta during the Android arc was only at 2 million his Super Saiyan form would be at 100 million. Android 18 would exceed this because she defeated Super Saiyan Vegeta. Putting Freeza at only 12 million would mean the Androids could be potentially over eight times the strength of Freeza.

Android 18 has a power level of 5 or less. Her strength comes from her cyborg enhancements, which don't have ki and wouldn't show up on a scouter.

I also don't buy into Super Saiyan being a flat, constant x50 multiplier, but that's another topic.

Zenkais were never supposed to be easy to guess, either. They were random, and the largest one was for the guy that was closest to becoming a Super Saiyan. Not a big surprise there.

Vegeta was closer to becoming Super than Goku was.

If you think base Goku = a mere 300,000, what is your explanation for everyone's astonishment at his base power? Or how he could possibly sustain an invisible Kaio-ken for the length of a whole fight? Is there anything for your argument, and not against the alternative?

As I've said, I don't think Goku was only 300,000.

And to be honest with myself, there isn't a whole lot of evidence for what I argue (ok, maybe that Freeza pulls some surprise hits that should've hurt Goku far worse than they did if he's suddenly ten times weaker than he was a bit ago). I just HATE that entire section, for two reasons.

One, it's been done about four times previously (everybody's beat down, then ~GOKU~ arrives, supporting characters hero worship, bad guy goes "bwah? who's this chump" then gets surprised as Goku smacks him hard).

Two, it's not even trying to hide that it's fucking over Vegeta. Heart blasted out your back? WHO CARES FUCK YOU VEGETA oh noes goku stubbed his toe lets give him wots and wots of power and food and power and hugs and candies and blowjobs

So I refuse, sirs. I reject your reality and substitute my own.

[Gamma]

By the way you guys. I would just like to point out that Kaioken is not only used in bursts. In DragonBall Online, the ability works like a on/off switch. You can even make it last forever if you have enough EP, it's just annoying to see your EP drain constantly.

Though I do believe Goku had a base battle power of 3 million. It would be absurd to think that he has a battle power of 300,000. Goku had a much more severe injury than Vegeta anyway. Vegeta had a hole blasted through his body, but he could still function, slowly losing consciousness, probably due to bleeding. Goku on the other hand had his soul ripped out of it's body twice, and the body itself was so beaten up that Goku couldn't even walk anymore. So I think it's appropriate that Goku would get a much higher boost than Vegeta from a zenkai.

[Savage68]

Vegeta was closer to becoming Super than Goku was.

Goku was obviously the one being built up to be the Super Saiyan there. No one would even consider Vegeta, because he was wrong about being SSJ about 3 different times. The last person being hailed as the SSJ before the actual transformation took place was Goku.

Who cares about Vegeta getting the shaft in favor of Goku? Doesn't that always happen? Goku became waaay stronger then Vegeta with less than half the time using the same training method in the Android arc, and I don't see anyone complaining.