Super Saiyan Goku and Freeza Battle Power Debate

[Dayspring]

By the way you guys. I would just like to point out that Kaioken is not only used in bursts. In DragonBall Online, the ability works like a on/off switch. You can even make it last forever if you have enough EP, it's just annoying to see your EP drain constantly.

Video game mechanics do not constitute a manga retcon.

My problem with the 300,000 and 12 million argument is that people always take the mistranslations as fact instead of providing numbers that make sense. They then try and convince people that Kaioken works differently ONLY in this section in order to ratify how 300,000 is so problematic. The only reason the hundred millions BPs are so ridiculous is because of how kaioken works.

Freeza is astounded by the fact that Goku deflected the finger beams while not at all by the fact that Vegeta was dodging them. This tells us Goku is stronger than Vegeta prior to using kaioken. Piccolo could go toe-to-toe with second form Freeza, but couldn't even see the finger beams. This tells us Vegeta is significantly stronger than second form Freeza. Second form Freeza had a BP over 1,000,000. Therefore Vegeta and Goku did as well.

From there, we know kaioken x20 puts Goku over 20 million. Freeza's 50% is on par with that. Gohan is dumbstruck by how powerful SSJ is, so we know it's greater than kaioken x20. Since Goku flat out says the kaioken x20 completely drained him, and since Freeza got whacked by a genkidama prior to going 100%, feel free to say 100% Freeza and SSJ Goku are whatever the hell you want them to be, just keep in mind that Freeza's 100% at this point is still greater than his 50% and that SSJ is stronger than that AND Goku's previous kaioken x20.

So here's the bare minimums we can get:
Second Form Freeza: 1,000,001
Vegeta: 1,000,002
Goku: 1,000,003
Goku (Kaioken x10): 10,000,030
Goku (Kaioken x20): 20,000,060
50% Freeza: Unknown, but on par with Kaioken x20
100% Freeza: Unknown, but greater than whatever figure was on par with Kaioken x20
SSJ Goku: 20,000,061 (providing 100% Freeza is at most equal to Kaioken x20)

So yeah, come up with whatever figures you want, but please be significantly stronger than those I just listed.

EDIT: So to be fair to Rocketman, the SSJ of 150,000,000 is wrong, because it says it's a straight multiplyer of his base 3,000,000. However, assuming SSJ is nothing but a multiplyer and that his base actually was 3,000,000, it would be 50x something less than 3,000,000 at this point.

[Nazi Cola]

Vegeta
18,000 -> 24,000 = 1.3x
24,000 -> 30,000 = 1.25x
*30,000 -> ~450,000 = ~15x
*~450,000 -> ~2,500,000 = ~5.5x

Those are just Vegeta's Zenkais. Like Gamma said, Goku sustained far worse injuries than Vegeta did, plus he was at a much lower power level when he received his final Zenkai (at least for the saga) compared to Vegeta's ~450,000.

*I made a general guesstimate for the last two. Vegeta would need to be close to 1st Form Freeza after his third Zenkai, but he tired out pretty quickly which would mean he wasn't exactly on Freeza's level altogether. For his fourth Zenkai, he needs to be above 3rd Form Freeza, who he regarded as trash with his new power-up.

Freeza
530,000 -> 1,060,000
(powers up again to get about equal with Piccolo w/weights) 1,060,000 -> 1,150,000
(powers up again to beat Piccolo w/weights) 1,150,000 -> 1,320,000
(transforms and is enough to castrate full-power Piccolo) 1,320,000 -> 2,100,000
(transforms to defeat fourth-Zenkai Vegeta) 2,100,000 -> ~3,600,000**

Goku
~8,000 -> ~12,000* = ~1.5x
~12,000 -> 90,000 = ~7.5x
90,000 -> 3,000,000 = 33.3x

*Another guesstimate. He should get a bigger Zenkai than Vegeta IMO, so yeah.
**I still feel this is too high because we didn't see Freeza gain that much of an advantage till a little later IIRC. That's a 1.2x difference, so yeah...

Goku's Zenkai from the Ginyu battle is 2.22x more than the one Vegeta got from the Ginyu battle, but again, Goku did suffer way more injuries, so I think that may as well justify it.

Anyway, you don't have to follow any of this guesswork, I just felt like doing it because I love working out power levels and whatnot.

[Savage68]

EDIT: So to be fair to Rocketman, the SSJ of 150,000,000 is wrong, because it says it's a straight multiplyer of his base 3,000,000. However, assuming SSJ is nothing but a multiplyer and that his base actually was 3,000,000, it would be 50x something less than 3,000,000 at this point.

SSJ replenished his base energy. This is seen when he reverts to his base form, and appears to be in good health. Unlike before, when he could barely stand.

[Dayspring]

EDIT: So to be fair to Rocketman, the SSJ of 150,000,000 is wrong, because it says it's a straight multiplyer of his base 3,000,000. However, assuming SSJ is nothing but a multiplyer and that his base actually was 3,000,000, it would be 50x something less than 3,000,000 at this point.

SSJ replenished his base energy. This is seen when he reverts to his base form, and appears to be in good health. Unlike before, when he could barely stand.

Um... so?

[Savage68]

...So, it multiplied his power by 3,000,000. I directly quoted your line that it didn't multiply his full base power, so where was the confusion?

[Dayspring]

...So, it multiplied his power by 3,000,000. I directly quoted your line that it didn't multiply his full base power, so where was the confusion?

I'm assuming what I bolded was you meaning to put his base 3,000,000 was multiplied by 50. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

The daizenshuu says that it multiplied his base of 3,000,000 by 50. His base was not at 3,000,000 when it got multiplied by 50. If you feel he retained some SSJ energy when powered down, that doesn't change this fact. Meanwhile, I disagree that he kept any to begin with.

[Savage68]

I'm assuming what I bolded was you meaning to put his base 3,000,000 was multiplied by 50.

Yes.

His base was not at 3,000,000 when it got multiplied by 50. If you feel he retained some SSJ energy when powered down, that doesn't change this fact. Meanwhile, I disagree that he kept any to begin with.

Then you would be wrong on two counts. You haven't refuted anything I said before. He barely had any power left in his base form before SSJ, and after he transformed, his base was operating at a perfectly normal level and even had energy to boot. It's energy was replenished, and his SSJ was a multiplier of his full base battle power.

[Dayspring]

His base was not at 3,000,000 when it got multiplied by 50. If you feel he retained some SSJ energy when powered down, that doesn't change this fact. Meanwhile, I disagree that he kept any to begin with.

Then you would be wrong on two counts. You haven't refuted anything I said before. He barely had any power left in his base form before SSJ, and after he transformed, his base was operating at a perfectly normal level and even had energy to boot. It's energy was replenished, and his SSJ was a multiplier of his full base battle power.

My thinking is that his body was no longer using anywhere near 2,000% of its strength, so it just relaxed on its own to the point where he's not as drained as he was prior to using it.

But that's another argument: you're implying that the x50 power prior was used prior to and during the multiplication process. That would mean more than all of the SSJ power was used. Since this isn't the same as Kaioken, I don't see that as possible.

[Savage68]

First of all, if you're going to ignore the 150,000,000 or 3,000,000 in these circumstances, I don't know why you're still sticking with the 50x. Because all of these figures were originally in the Daiz, and if you believe one is wrong, you shouldn't be so adamant to cite the other listings. If we're throwing out the fact that his 3 mil was what was increased, SSJ could easily be at 130,000,000 or 140,000,000 for all we know. They're either all correct, or they're all wrong.

SSJ's power is a multiple of a base battle power, it's not as though someone takes 3,000,000 and puts it into a calculator to get 150,000,000. SSJ's power was 150,000,000, and it was a 50x multiple of Goku's full base battle power. Goku's power increases from one point to the other; Nothing is skipped. For his power to reach a point so much higher than it had been even using the Kaio-ken x20, it would've had to be at least 3,000,000 before going past it. It's the same deal with Kaio-ken x2 and Kaio-ken x3.

What power listings do you have for Goku, directly before the SSJ transformation, then? And how exactly did that affect his power after he turned SSJ?

[Godo]

By the point where Goku went Super Saiya-jin, he was meant to be the SSJ of Legend. Except for the multiplier, the effects on Goku's power could be said to be magical, such as his wounds being healed and his power in his base form replenished.

Hell, even if Goku was only at 5 in powerlevel when he transformed, the power of the SSJ transformation would probably transfer to make his maximum base power as high as possible, still giving him a base of 3,000,000. Then his SSJ power would still be like 147 millions...
It probably works as a defense mechanism, and it seems like it lets loose in desperate anger to protect the Saiya-jin, like an advanced, instant zenkai.

[Dayspring]

First of all, if you're going to ignore the 150,000,000 or 3,000,000 in these circumstances, I don't know why you're still sticking with the 50x. Because all of these figures were originally in the Daiz, and if you believe one is wrong, you shouldn't be so adamant to cite the other listings. If we're throwing out the fact that his 3 mil was what was increased, SSJ could easily be at 130,000,000 or 140,000,000 for all we know. They're either all correct, or they're all wrong.

Not at all. They got Goku's over 8,000 wrong yet were right about his 90,000. Meanwhile the x50 comment is taken from the SEGs, not the daizenshuu BP chart. I just think the BP chart as of Goku vs Freeza has room to be wrong, meaning I'm open to the idea of people claiming they're all weaker than what the daizenshuu guesses. How much weaker, is another matter. If people claim he's 300,000 just because they want a number lower than 3,000,000 and are used to 300,000 from a while back, then I don't support that because it doesn't even go as low as 1,000,000 based off what we see in the manga.

SSJ's power is a multiple of a base battle power, it's not as though someone takes 3,000,000 and puts it into a calculator to get 150,000,000. SSJ's power was 150,000,000, and it was a 50x multiple of Goku's full base battle power.

Oh, my bad. I mixed up the BP chart's def of SSJ with the SEG. So I thought you were claiming SSJ was literally a x50 power up and nothing else, and that the daizenshuu saying SSJ was 150,000,000 was because 150 mil / 50 = 3 mil (and thus Goku was at 3 mil when he went SSJ).

What power listings do you have for Goku, directly before the SSJ transformation, then? And how exactly did that affect his power after he turned SSJ?

I don't mind the daizenshuu claiming Goku as being 3,000,000, because it's a number that represents how he's stronger than Vegeta, who in turn dwarfed Freeza's second form, which was over 1,000,000. From there, I don't altogether mind Freeza being 60 mil, because 60 mil could rival 3 mil x20. Since it isn't stated if Freeza's BP dropped after getting hit by the genkidama, I therefore don't mind the 120 mil for his 100%. Same with the SSJ listing of 150 mil, as that's another arbitrary number greater than 120 mil.

However, I can easily see people claiming that all of them are weaker, as we simply don't know for sure with what's only expressed in the manga. We do have an idea of how low is impossible though, so I hate it when people say he's in the hundreds of thousands and then try to convince us that kaioken randomly works differently just because. We're making up our own BPs anyway, people! Make up ones that make sense!

[Savage68]

Not at all. They got Goku's over 8,000 wrong yet were right about his 90,000. Meanwhile the x50 comment is taken from the SEGs, not the daizenshuu BP chart.

Well, the Daiz says base Goku is 3 mil and SSJ Goku was 150 mil, so isn't that still 50x...?

Anyway, I was only talking about the battle power listings for the Frieza battle. Obviously some of the other listings are wrong, but it's either hit or miss when it comes to the late Namek arc. For everything to be correct, no battle power can be out of place there, so if you disagree with one listing, there's not much reason to still stick by another. Coherence is incredibly key, if you're using any of the figures provided in the Daiz. So I don't have any problems with Goku being 3,000,000 when transforming into a SSJ, because he would have to reach his full base power on the way to something higher.

[Dayspring]

Not at all. They got Goku's over 8,000 wrong yet were right about his 90,000. Meanwhile the x50 comment is taken from the SEGs, not the daizenshuu BP chart.

Well, the Daiz says base Goku is 3 mil and SSJ Goku was 150 mil, so isn't that still 50x...?

Anyway, I was only talking about the battle power listings for the Freeza battle. Obviously some of the other listings are wrong, but it's either hit or miss when it comes to the late Namek arc. For everything to be correct, no battle power can be out of place there, so if you disagree with one listing, there's not much reason to still stick by another. Coherence is incredibly key, if you're using any of the figures provided in the Daiz. So I don't have any problems with Goku being 3,000,000 when transforming into a SSJ, because he would have to reach his full base power on the way to something higher.

It just says he's at 150,000,000 during SSJ. The blurb beneath explains that's the equivalent of 50x his base, not that his base was multiplied by 50. So there's no multiplication involved at all (at least, not in the BP chart). At this point in the SSJ game, it could have been a straight addition of 147 to 150 mil.

[Savage68]

That makes sense; it's the point I was trying to convey earlier.

[Dayspring]

That makes sense; it's the point I was trying to convey earlier.

Yeah, going by memory alone, I misremembered the blurb as being the SEG's ''SSJ = BP x50'' comment. Like I said, my bad.

What doesn't help, though, is that in the daizenshuu, the BP definition claims Goku surpasses 150 million, while the technique bio for SSJ says SSJs are 50x stronger than normal Saiyans.

[Kaboom]

What doesn't help, though, is that in the daizenshuu, the BP definition claims Goku surpasses 150 million, while the technique bio for SSJ says SSJs are 50x stronger than normal Saiyans.

That's not necessarily a contradiction, because I sincerely doubt Goku was actually at exactly three million. He could have been 3,002,576, and then been about 150,128,800 as a Super Saiyan. Just like the "8000" figure isn't "wrong" for just rounding down.

[Rocketman]

I don't like the 3,000,000-base number because I hate the huge number inflation that kicks in when the Freeza fight begins (granted, part of it is Toriyama's fault).

Everything of Z beforehand had been contained between 1,200 and 120,000, with the only large jump being from Recoome and co to Ginyu. And then Freeza shows up and we start nearly five times higher. And then a few minutes later, we're at a million. A few more minutes and it's two mil, then three, then 30, then 60, then we've broken a hundred million, then a hundred and fifty million.

[coola]

Rocketman: Think of it,as leveling-up in bad RPG game,for 20 levels your stats barely grow,suddenly,at level 21,you recieve huge boost up

[hleV]

The daizenshuu says that it multiplied his base of 3,000,000 by 50. His base was not at 3,000,000 when it got multiplied by 50. If you feel he retained some SSJ energy when powered down, that doesn't change this fact. Meanwhile, I disagree that he kept any to begin with.

It may work like this:

1. Goku's base powerlevel is 3,000,000.
2. He gets beaten and now is only capable of using like one third of his power - 1,000,000.
3. Then he goes SSJ.
4. SSJ looks for Goku's original base powerlevel, which is 3,000,000, and makes his current powerlevel 50 times higher than his original base one.
5. Goku's injuries don't disappear, it's just Goku is too powerful (his body is) to feel these injuries, thus allowing him to use all of his power.
6. When he descends, his injuries should have the same effect as before ascending.

[Kaboom]

I don't like the 3,000,000-base number because I hate the huge number inflation that kicks in when the Freeza fight begins (granted, part of it is Toriyama's fault).

Everything of Z beforehand had been contained between 1,200 and 120,000, with the only large jump being from Recoome and co to Ginyu. And then Freeza shows up and we start nearly five times higher. And then a few minutes later, we're at a million. A few more minutes and it's two mil, then three, then 30, then 60, then we've broken a hundred million, then a hundred and fifty million.

I concur, it's a crazy-huge jump. But the Freeza arc seems to have been, for all intents and purposes, planned as the actual end of the series. You don't need some official statement to tell you so; it's easy to see from the trends the story was pulling off. So naturally Goku and Freeza would be set up as these infinitely-powerful, insurmountable god-like beings who completely trump everyone else in the universe.