Boo arc too repetitive at times?

[Rory]

Recently had the chance to sit down and watch the episodes of Gohan vs Boo (Gotenks+Piccolo absorbed) again recently.
Did anybody else find this fight absolutely agonizing to watch? Not just because of the absolutely (almost unnecessary) degradation of Gohan, but also the feeling of "man, what a waste of time this whole saga is". This fight was when I realized that the Boo arc is entirely composed of:
1.New villain appears (or form of the previous villain), he's strong. Main characters are useless.
2.New power-up. Villain is made to look a fool.
Back to part 1.

I know some scenes are dragged out much longer in the anime, but at least the other arcs had something to them, the hiding strategy of the Freeza arc, and the search for Cell, and the 'trying to overcome in the Super Saiyan wall' in the Cell arc. In the Boo arc it just seems like the constant part 1 and 2 of what mentioned earlier.

I know we dish out a lot of hate to GT (well deserved hate), but we don't speak much of the repetitive nature of the Boo arc, did anybody else feel this way?

[the_abberration]

*Reads Topic*

Z characters fight an entity that has regenerative powers. Only gets defeated by signature move that totally obliterates it. Cell Arc Redux. 'Nuff' Said.

Gohan's saving grace. "Fight you? No. I'm going to kill you." Or in JP "Retard." Both were classic lines spoken by him.

[jjgp1112]

My main problem with the Buu saga was that it didn't really feel like a story arc. It just felt like a bunch of stuff happening from episode to episode. Buu was constantly changing in both appearance and personality so you never really had any interest in him as a villain overall, and the latter half of the saga (which starts when Evil Buu eats Fat Buu and becomes Super Buu) is essentially one really long battle.

[Dayspring]

My main problem with the Buu saga was that it didn't really feel like a story arc. It just felt like a bunch of stuff happening from episode to episode. Buu was constantly changing in both appearance and personality so you never really had any interest in him as a villain overall, and the latter half of the saga (which starts when Evil Buu eats Fat Buu and becomes Super Buu) is essentially one really long battle.

This makes sense to me as a reason to hate it. Calling it bad because it's repetitive, doesn't, though, since that logic would mean all of the Z-era is a knockoff of the Demon Piccolo arc, while the 23rd and 22nd Budokai arcs repeat the concept of the 21st Budokai.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Oddly enough, the Boo arc is my favorite so far as Z goes.

As for the repetitive nature of the plot, I can see where people are coming from. But keep in mind that the nature of Boo is kinda what drives the story at this point. Majin Boo was written to be the end-all in terms of universal threat, and he really was-- the constant ass-pull powerups were really the only way for Goku and the others to keep up. It was complete and utter chaos.


~Da Lemmy

[SylentEcho]

The Boo arc was very poorly done and rushed quite a bit too. I still love it though, but the other sagas were just better. As for Boo arc being repetitive, Dragonball manga in general has been repetitive, lol. It's just new situations here and there that keep us entertained.

[Vegeta Jr]

The reason it was repetetive is not that it was the same as say Freeza powering up, it was that there was too many damn instances of it in the same arc.

Lets see shall we.

Pui Pui
Yakon
Dabura
Majin Vegeta
Fat Buu
Evil Buu
Super Buu
Super Gotenks Buu
Super Gohan Buu
Kid Buu

The only truly 'original' part was Vegetto letting himself be absorbed, it wasn't the same old 'I'm stronger now so I'll make you look weak for the next 10 episodes'. He was actually waiting for Buu to absorb him ever since he chopped his antennae off and the rest was just pushing him to do it.

[Innagadadavida]

The Buu saga was repetitive, but if we had a problem with repetition, we'd have stopped at Namek. By that time we have seen those exact story elements twice over. Dragon Ball repeats itself. Dragon Ball introduces a lot of pointless characters who do nothing. So why should we treat the Buu saga any different? Because not everything has to serve some all mighty purpose. The end of the story isn't the most important part. It's the ride getting there. And the Buu saga was a hell of a ride.

On the whole, the Buu saga had the perfect balance of humor and action. There was no more gung-ho seriousness and the show was all the better for it. The anime really hit its stride in terms of reasonable filler; I don't remember very many boring moments or dreaded cut-aways in the Buu saga, where as Namek and Cell games was riddled with them. There were tons of cool moves and transformations introduced (Fusion, Super Saiyan 3, Super Ghost Kamakaze, Beam Sword). The SciFi stuff is now mostly absent in favor of magic, which is where the series began. It was the best way to wrap it all up.

And Buu was the best villain because he was a legitimate threat. Freeza was small potatoes and Cell had his own obligations before he started being threatening. Majin Buu is more than just a monster, words can not describe what he is. He has no thoughts, no honor, no needs or wants, nothing but the burning desire for the destruction of everything. Also he was PINK and loves candy! It's a perfect unsettling juxtaposition to accentuate his chaotic nature and over-all absurdity. Even still, he posed a threat to all of existence; Heaven, Hell, Living Rhelm the Kaioshin Rhelm... The God of all creation was shitting his boots over Buu. How epic is that? Way more epic than bug man or hermaphrodite.

The Buu saga was the best story arc in Dragon Ball Z.

[B]

My main problem with the Buu saga was that it didn't really feel like a story arc. It just felt like a bunch of stuff happening from episode to episode. Buu was constantly changing in both appearance and personality so you never really had any interest in him as a villain overall, and the latter half of the saga (which starts when Evil Buu eats Fat Buu and becomes Super Buu) is essentially one really long battle.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts, except I don't hold them in a negative fashion. The entire arc is Toriyama dicking around in deadline hell, but he still manages to throw in the things that make Dragon Ball fun, which is why I prefer it to the more convential storytelling of the Freeza and Cell arcs.

Isn't this the point where he got a fan letter stating "Too many triangles!" and he went and double-upped the triangles just because of that one guy?

[jjgp1112]

The Buu saga was repetitive, but if we had a problem with repetition, we'd have stopped at Namek. By that time we have seen those exact story elements twice over. Dragon Ball repeats itself. Dragon Ball introduces a lot of pointless characters who do nothing. So why should we treat the Buu saga any different? Because not everything has to serve some all mighty purpose. The end of the story isn't the most important part. It's the ride getting there. And the Buu saga was a hell of a ride.

On the whole, the Buu saga had the perfect balance of humor and action. There was no more gung-ho seriousness and the show was all the better for it. The anime really hit its stride in terms of reasonable filler; I don't remember very many boring moments or dreaded cut-aways in the Buu saga, where as Namek and Cell games was riddled with them. There were tons of cool moves and transformations introduced (Fusion, Super Saiyan 3, Super Ghost Kamakaze, Beam Sword). The SciFi stuff is now mostly absent in favor of magic, which is where the series began. It was the best way to wrap it all up.

And Buu was the best villain because he was a legitimate threat. Freeza was small potatoes and Cell had his own obligations before he started being threatening. Majin Buu is more than just a monster, words can not describe what he is. He has no thoughts, no honor, no needs or wants, nothing but the burning desire for the destruction of everything. Also he was PINK and loves candy! It's a perfect unsettling juxtaposition to accentuate his chaotic nature and over-all absurdity. Even still, he posed a threat to all of existence; Heaven, Hell, Living Rhelm the Kaioshin Rhelm... The God of all creation was shitting his boots over Buu. How epic is that? Way more epic than bug man or hermaphrodite.

The Buu saga was the best story arc in Dragon Ball Z.

You would have something there if the God of all creation didn't turn out to be a little bitch. Buu was a huge threat, but he wasn't an actual GOOD VILLAIN. He didn't have much personality, he was just some strong guy. He's pretty much Broly without the overexposure and fanboys. Cell and Frieza are actually interesting villains and have actually have interesting personalities. The Buu saga didn't really have much of a storyline. You could tell that Toriyama was constantly writing himself into a corner and thus it doesn't really feel like a fleshed out storyline. It's just a bunch of events and power ups happening from episode to episode and then said power-ups being randomly dwarfed. Even if Majin Buu was a threat to the universe, I never really felt interested in him outside of "He's strong." Buu didn't do anything to make you really want to see him get defeated - the saga was devoid of any sort of emotion. It just felt like they were going through the motions. When you're reading the manga, you can tell that Toriyama was probably thinking, "WHY AM I STILL DOING THIS?!" while drawing the panels.

While the concepts behind it were pretty cool, the storyline itself and the way it was executed fell flat. Kinda like Dragon ball GT.

And not only that, but you're downplaying Cell and Frieza just for the sake of your argument, which makes it weaker as a result.

[Blue]

Freeza was small potatoes

What? Freeza was the strongest being in the entire universe before Goku transformed.

When you're reading the manga, you can tell that Toriyama was probably thinking, "WHY AM I STILL DOING THIS?!" while drawing the panels.

Exactly, you can just feel how absolutely low Toriyama was running on ideas and how he didn't give a fuck at that point. That's why it's so sloppily thrown together.

[Innagadadavida]

You would have something there if the God of all creation didn't turn out to be a little bitch. Buu was a huge threat, but he wasn't an actual GOOD VILLAIN. He didn't have much personality, he was just some strong guy. He's pretty much Broly without the overexposure and fanboys. Cell and Freeza are actually interesting villains and have actually have interesting personalities. The Buu saga didn't really have much of a storyline. You could tell that Toriyama was constantly writing himself into a corner and thus it doesn't really feel like a fleshed out storyline. It's just a bunch of events and power ups happening from episode to episode and then said power-ups being randomly dwarfed. Even if Majin Buu was a threat to the universe, I never really felt interested in him outside of "He's strong." Buu didn't do anything to make you really want to see him get defeated - the saga was devoid of any sort of emotion. It just felt like they were going through the motions. When you're reading the manga, you can tell that Toriyama was probably thinking, "WHY AM I STILL DOING THIS?!" while drawing the panels.

While the concepts behind it were pretty cool, the storyline itself and the way it was executed fell flat. Kinda like Dragon ball GT.

And not only that, but you're downplaying Cell and Freeza just for the sake of your argument, which makes it weaker as a result.

The God of creation seemed to be a little bitch because of the overwhelming powers around him. He dwarfs even Freeza's power. It's just that by the time he was introduced he had already been outclassed by our protagonists.

And I still think Buu is a good villain for the reasons listed. He's a huge threat, but he loves candy and games. It's an unsettling pairing that highlights just how chaotic, unpredictable, and child-like he really is. What's scarier than a child with a magnifying glass to an ant? Those are some interesting dynamics. Waaay more interesting than the pissing contests that were the Freeza and Cell arcs.

Yes, Toriyama "wrote himself into corners" he was "dicking around in deadline hell" but he has been doing this for YEARS before Buu. The Cell Saga was just an uninspired mish-mash of various editors telling him his shit is weak. Also Trunks is a huge Kyle Reese rip-off. Any part of the original story can be broken down and scrutinized on the meta-level.

The concepts were cool and they hardly fell flat. They were awesome and kept me on the edge of my seat the whole time. It was still Dragon Ball, and it brought back to the table the humor and adventure that had long since been abandoned by the Namek arc. GT has nothing on Buu. GT was actually shit.

Also, the whole downplay of Freeza and Cell were just attempts at humor on my part. I do like every single part of the story, I just like the Buu saga more.

[Nils_McCloud]

I liked the boo arc, although from the moment Super Boo came into the picture it was, as pointed out in previous post, one big drawn-out battle (although if you really hate that stuff, you're not reading this anyway). After Cell, Buu was definitely a refreshing villain. Especially Kid Buu. He was just fubar, and I loved every single bit of it.

I also thought Fusion was a brilliant concept (read: excuse to make the fighters even more powerful).

Oh, and Super Saiya-jin 3. People seem to hate that SSJ-state, but I liked it.

[Blue]

some stuff

The difference is he went in one direction with the Cell arc and stayed there (for the most part.) He didn't constantly introduce and abandon concepts like he did in the Boo arc. Of course the whole time traveling thing was a cluster fuck but I've always said you needed to be an extremely competent writer to pull time traveling off well. Really though the Cell arc was the beginning of "everyone needs to be a Super Saiyan" so I dislike it somewhat too. At least it gives us a solid, pretty awesome ending so we can disregard the Boo saga if we wish.

I think all of his introduced concepts did fall flat just because of how abruptly and randomly they happened and ended. I did nothing but face palm when those earrings came into play. It's like Toriyama was literally out of ideas period so he had to pull one from the middle of the saga, and then they defused because of "stinky air"?

Coincidentally it is one of my favorite anime arcs just because it was handled well and wasn't full of BS boring filler. Then again that's not saying much because I don't like the anime in general.

[jjgp1112]

Yeah, that's what I was talking about with how there was a lack of a real storyline. There was so many things that would be intorduced and then immediately pushed aside in favor of something else. With the Androids at least the newly introduced villains built off of the previous one and at least had some foreshadowing rather than coming out of the left field. And new heroes weren't brought in and hyped up like shit and then thrown to the side. When Vegeta came in to defeat Cell, you already knew that Cell wasn't Perfect yet, so of course Vegeta wasn't going to kill him, so they didn't hype it up like, "OMFG this is truly the end, Vegeta will kill him!" and the same thing happened with Trunks, as you knew the story was building towards Goku vs Cell so that was also downplayed. Meanwhile, in the Buu saga, Gotenks was brought in like he was seriously going to be the one to kill Buu. And then it was Mystic Gohan. And then it was Vegetto. And then it was GOKU~!.

[Majin Buu]

You would have something there if the God of all creation didn't turn out to be a little bitch. Buu was a huge threat, but he wasn't an actual GOOD VILLAIN. He didn't have much personality, he was just some strong guy. He's pretty much Broly without the overexposure and fanboys. Cell and Freeza are actually interesting villains and have actually have interesting personalities.

First, what was Cell other than a lesser rehash of Freeza in terms of personality? Does he have anything that makes his personality unique outside of being arrogant, cocky, and evil? And don't cop out and say "well he has Freeza's cells so it's ok" because it's still unoriginal. In fact, I'd argue that Cell (as cool as he is) has less of an original personality than Buu.

Second, Buu at least has just as much of a personality as Cell and Freeza did. Maybe even slightly more. In addition to being arrogant, cocky, and evil like all Dragon Ball villains, he's also goofy, funny, and carefree to an extent. He's a guy that wants to have fun and enjoy himself, but for him that means killing and destroying. I've never gotten the sense from Broly that he kills and destroys because it's fun to him, for him it's just because he's evil.

how is any of that indicative of Buu not having much personality?

The Buu saga didn't really have much of a storyline. You could tell that Toriyama was constantly writing himself into a corner and thus it doesn't really feel like a fleshed out storyline.

The Goku/Vegeta rivalry being revisited and settled, Vegeta officially becoming a good person with his sacrifice, Buu deciding to stop killing but then relapsing into evil due to the actions of two evil humans. How did the Buu arc have any less of a storyline than the previous arcs? It's different than the Freeza and Cell arcs, but it doesn't have any less of a story.

Besides, Dragon Ball in general isn't something that's very heavy on plot so why single out the Buu arc for this?

It's just a bunch of events and power ups happening from episode to episode and then said power-ups being randomly dwarfed.

How is the Cell arc anything more than that? For that matter, how is the Freeza arc anything more than that? For that matter, a non-fan could say that the entire series is like that (my best friend for example derisively refers to the show as "who's stronger?"). What's your point?

Even if Majin Buu was a threat to the universe, I never really felt interested in him outside of "He's strong." Buu didn't do anything to make you really want to see him get defeated - the saga was devoid of any sort of emotion. It just felt like they were going through the motions.

The only Dragon Ball villains I particularly wanted to see beaten were Freeza and the two gunmen that shot the dog and Satan. Guess that means Piccolo Daimao, Cell, and every other Dragon Ball villain were bad villains as well since I didn't feel that way about them. Oh wait........

Also, doesn't killing more or less every person on the Earth and then completely obliterating it count for anything?

When you're reading the manga, you can tell that Toriyama was probably thinking, "WHY AM I STILL DOING THIS?!" while drawing the panels.

Maybe, but I would argue that he seems to be having more fun with this than the Cell arc because he seems to be going all out and doing whatever he wants (and like someone earlier said, still managing to make it a fun and engaging story).

While the concepts behind it were pretty cool, the storyline itself and the way it was executed fell flat. Kinda like Dragon ball GT.

Don't compare the Buu arc to GT. The Buu arc was fun and engaging. GT wasn't (for the most part).

And not only that, but you're downplaying Cell and Freeza just for the sake of your argument, which makes it weaker as a result.

He said he was only doing it for comedic effect, but how is that any different than you downplaying Buu for the sake of your argument?

[Blue]

Don't compare the Buu arc to GT. The Buu arc was fun and engaging. GT wasn't (for the most part).

Just about the same amount of random ass pulls though. At least the powers were consistent I suppose.

[Majin Buu]

They are random yes, but the fact that it still manages fun and enjoyable in spite of it I guess is a testament to Toriyama's talent as a writer. Also, Toriyama pulled the entire series out of his ass. Nothing was ever planned beforehand. It's just more abundant here.

That's kind of another reason why I like the Buu arc, it has an "anything goes" feel to it. Now, more than in the previous arcs, you truly get the sense that anything can happen here.

[Vegeta Jr]

And Buu was the best villain because he was a legitimate threat

The Buu saga was the best story arc in Dragon Ball Z.

Except being 1 dimensional makes him a BAD villain, just because he's super strong and blows up planets without a warning doesn't make him any better of a villain than say Freeza or Cell, they were cold, calculating and just as threatening as Buu.

[jjgp1112]

I never said that Buu was weak. I said he wasn't an interesting villain. He just felt like Broly. Yes, he was a huge threat, but what else was he outside of that? He was merely an "enemy," whereas King Piccolo, Frieza, and Cell felt like actual villains. Buu just felt like the big guy that did a bunch of stuff, and nothing more. He was just one-dimensional, and didn't really do anything to make the viewers feel any sort of personal connection to the story. Just because he was stronger than all of the other villains doesn't mean that he was actually better as a villain. Again, Broly was made to look like God, but I'm sure everyone would agree he's a bad villain.

Sure, the Buu saga had a lot of internal storylines, but the overall storyline was virtually nonexistant.