Boo arc too repetitive at times?

[gokuhan72]

It is repetitive. It was a ok saga for DBZ, a great saga for anime though. I personally liked the late saiyan-namek saga. Also the Cell was good but Gohan's little 4 episode or whatever struggle with cell just annoyed me.

[Undercooked Sausage]

The second half of the Buu arc was pretty much worthless mainly because of the line "Don't worry! We can use the Dragonballs!" Piccolo reduced to a joke character to make way for the two asshole kids. Not one single attack on Buu inflicting any damage whatsoever until the Spirit bomb(I mean, shit, at least Cell got tired and lost ki), and because it took a great villain like Fat Buu and halfway through made him a deriritive, carbon copy of Cell and Freeza personality-wise, and a much less interesting character design in general.

The first half of the Buu saga is an utter joy. Great Saiyaman, Majin Vegeta wrecking shit, Majin Buu living with Mr. Satan. Honestly, probably the best the anime ever got outside of that part where Dabra sat in that room for a few episodes. Most episodes looked nice, the filler wasn't obtrusive, and the filler that was there actually filled out a lot of shit that the manga mainly skimmed over.

But then it got lazy, Goku came back, the arc became a pissing contest, and Toriyama got carried away with regen, AGAIN. The second half of Buu is a chore to sit through and the worst part of the anime/manga.


Honestly though, the show's villains lost any sort of threatening stature once the Namek dragonballs were introduced since they could revive people multiple times and were pretty much impossible to eliminate from the picture. (what kind of villain is going to fly all the way to new namek to kill the new elder to get rid of them?) and by the time the Buu arc rolled around, I'm pretty sure even the Earth dragonballs didn't have any restrictions on them anymore.

[Majin Buu]

An enemy is someone who just destroys stuff, gets everybody scared, etc.

A villain is someone who's actually, y'know interesting.

He has a reason for his actions

Going by that logic, Piccolo and Freeza weren't actually villains then and Cell ceased to be a villain when he became perfect. Why did Piccolo want to take over the world? No reason, he's just evil. Why did Freeza want to rule the universe? No reason, he's just evil. And what was Cell's motive outside of "I want a good fight" after he became perfect? "I want to spread fear. Why? No reason, I'm just evil like that".

a good backstory

How is Buu's backstory any less interesting than Piccolo's or Cell's? (I'll give you Freeza, but the character himself doesn't really have a backstory) His involves the freaking gods of the entire universe.

does stuff more involved than destroying things, actually has a rivalry or personal connection with one of or several of the characters, etc.

Buu killed off Kaioshin's fellow Kaioshin and left him as the only one. Also, Buu's relationship with Mr. Satan (the effects of which are seen after he becomes Super Buu). Also, Piccolo Daimao only had a connection to Kame Senin when he first appeared.

The internal storylines in the Freeza and Cell sagas actually contribute to the overall storyline while with the Buu saga, a lot of stuff like Vegeta's internal struggle were almost independent of the actual storyline. The other two sagas had internal aspects that further fleshed out the storyline.

I don't see how Vegeta's internal struggle didn't contribute to the story. It fleshed out Vegeta more as a character.

And plus, as Mike mentioned before, the transformations were no longer even special. They were just, "Hey, look what I can do now!" The SSJ3 transformation was completely out the left field and while it was cool, what impact did it really have?

Yes, SSJ3 (to go off topic a bit, I find it ironic that you don't like Japanese DBZ, yet you use the Japanese abbreviation of Super Saiyan) did come out of left field. And it ultimately didn't have much of an impact. But that's actually another reason I like the Buu arc: Toriyama flips things around and doesn't make the new Super Saiyan form the trump card in the villain's defeat like it was in the previous two arcs. Which is another argument for the arc not being repetitive.

[jjgp1112]

What I mean is connection with characters that are actually relevant - y'know, the ones he actually fights. Not just someone who happens to know who he is. None of the main people he was fighting really hated him besides Gotenks. Even when Gohan and Goku and the others found out that he killed everyone, they just thought, "Wow, this guy's crazy!" There was never any real epic battles. Everything just came out of the left field.

Also, why do you constantly insist on bringing up other villains while leaving out other aspects of their character or only going to early points of the story. of course the only person Piccolo had a connection with was Master Roshi. But later on, Tien, Goku and several other characters all develop an interesting rivalry with him. There's actual tension between the villains other than, "This guy's evil. I have to kill him."

And Cell did have a reason for his actions: To prove he was stronger than everyone and to fight strong opponents. He had an actual rivalry with Goku.

Buu just doesn't do anything period. Piccolo wanted to take over the world. Frieza wanted to take over the universe. Cell wanted to assert his dominance. Buu? He was just there doing things because he was evil. He was your typical "villain of the week."

And what the hell does what abbreviation I use have to do with any of this?

Let me ask you: what makes Buu a good villain other than, "he's strong as shit"

[Rocketman]

The Buu arc is a bunch of crappy plot TWEESTS. It's not really more repetitive than the rest of the series, you just notice it more because it's done so badly.

[Innagadadavida]

Let me ask you: what makes Buu a good villain other than, "he's strong as shit"

You just refuse to look at things any other way than your own. I posted earlier why Buu is a good villain and gave more reasons than "strong as shit." He's chaotic, unpredictable, child-like, and loves destruction almost as much as tiny pastries. Freeza and Cell both had motivation, yes. That made them interesting, yes. But they were both very calculated. They had a reason for everything and you always knew how they would react to a situation. If we had another villain like that, the series would have been even more repetitive than it is now.

Watch the scene where Super Buu makes his way to the lookout. He is creepy as fuck. His mannerisms are completely random. The first time you watched that, you had no idea what the fuck was going to happen. That is what Dragon Ball needed. And it was done in the most light-hearted fashion possible. Toriyama didn't take it seriously. He had fun, and his readers had fun.

[caejones]

Buu starts out as a legendary mindless source of destruction.
Come to find out, he's just a giant toddler who never learned the moral system that permiates the cast. And then proceeds to learn it very quickly, rendering all the epic battles up to that point silly and ironic.

But then someone wrongs him--by shooting his best friends--and Buu is torn between acting against the villains and remaining strictly good. Literally torn into two separate beings, which personifies the struggle--which is ultimately won by harsh desire.

Super Buu does become generic, killing anything that isn't entertaining to him. But come to find out, there is still a trace of 'humanity' left in this form of Buu, which is again literally ripped out, leaving an opponent that is so insane that even letting something live for entertainment isn't on its agenda--Kid Buu dispenses with the fighting and immediately destroys the Earth.

But there's _still_ that bit of good. It was cut away, but is still in there like a repressed memory. And Mr. Satan forces Buu to confront that--again in a literal battle.

And crap, I got all literary analysis-y. Because now I'm starting to think that the entire story of Buu is an alligory(Metaphor? I don't know. ) for human nature, with the final message being that it requires everyone to overcome the deepest darkest things (Genki Dama / Spirit Bomb), but that the very same energy can be turned to good things (Uub).

... Oopse.

[Majin Buu]

It's unpredictable in all the wrong ways though. It's not a happy "I didn't see that coming!" it's a "You made me wait all that time and THIS is what happens!?" Sure it was unpredictable that Gohan spent a ton of episodes creating an ultimate power and then gets absorbed in 2. That doesn't mean it was a great move plot wise.

I was talking more about the crazy things that happen in the arc. Almost the entire cast being killed, everyone on Earth being killed, the Earth itself being destroyed, two people becoming one, the countless transformations Buu goes through, fighting candy, going inside the main villain's body, etc.

What I mean is connection with characters that are actually relevant - y'know, the ones he actually fights. Not just someone who happens to know who he is. None of the main people he was fighting really hated him besides Gotenks. Even when Gohan and Goku and the others found out that he killed everyone, they just thought, "Wow, this guy's crazy!" There was never any real epic battles. Everything just came out of the left field.

Also, why do you constantly insist on bringing up other villains while leaving out other aspects of their character or only going to early points of the story. of course the only person Piccolo had a connection with was Master Roshi. But later on, Tenshinhan, Goku and several other characters all develop an interesting rivalry with him. There's actual tension between the villains other than, "This guy's evil. I have to kill him."

Because I'm trying to show you that Buu isn't the only villain that's guilty of the things you criticize him for. You seem to have this double standard where you criticize Buu for things that past villains were guilty of but either ignore it or let it slide with those past villains.

And again, Buu later developed an interesting friendship with Mr. Satan, the results of which again, are seen later on in the arc. Not to mention the fact that the series ends with Goku leaving to train Buu's reincarnation as his student.

And as for Piccolo Daimao, only Goku had a rivalry with him, and that was more with his reincarnation. No one really had a rivalry with the original Piccolo, they just had to defeat him because he was causing hell. In other words, because "this guy's evil, I have to kill him" like you said.

And Cell did have a reason for his actions: To prove he was stronger than everyone and to fight strong opponents. He had an actual rivalry with Goku.

So? Every major villain in the series wants to prove that they're the strongest. Again, outside of that, does Cell have any reason for his actions? At one point he even admits himself that he has no goal outside of enjoying himself by spreading fear. And again, why? No reason, he's just evil like that.

Besides, Super Buu had the same desire: To be the strongest and fight strong people. Going by your logic, he had a reason for his actions, which disproves your own argument that Buu had no reason for his actions. All the forms of Buu had some reason for what they did while having the underlying innate desire to kill and destroy. The only one that didn't have a reason for his actions outside of that innate desire was Kid Buu, and that was the whole point of him.

As for Goku and Cell, I think you've been confusing "rivalry" with "desire/reason to fight". Cell didn't actually have a rivalry with Goku, he just expected a good fight from him. And Goku never actually expressed any desire to fight Cell, he had to fight him because he posed a threat to the world. He may have enjoyed fighting Cell in the process, but there's nothing that would define the dynamic between them as a rivalry. You could argue that they were trying to outdo each other in battle, but with that logic, most of the fights in the series could be considered rivalries. Gotenks had about as much of a rivalry with Buu as Cell did with Goku (and maybe more so since Gotenks actually fought Buu more than once).

Buu just doesn't do anything period. Piccolo wanted to take over the world. Freeza wanted to take over the universe. Cell wanted to assert his dominance. Buu? He was just there doing things because he was evil. He was your typical "villain of the week."

Dude, Piccolo and Freeza essentially did things just because they were evil too. And going off of my statement earlier, Cell too. Are they your "typical villains of the week" too?

And what the hell does what abbreviation I use have to do with any of this?

I admitted it was off topic, I just thought it was an interesting irony given that you hate Japanese DBZ.

Let me ask you: what makes Buu a good villain other than, "he's strong as shit"

I said it earlier. He's goofy and funny in addition to being an evil being. He can make you laugh at one point and then turn around and commit acts of genocide. And when he becomes smarter by absorbing Piccolo and Gotenks he starts to exhibit more of the typical villain traits. He becomes more calculating and "toys with his enemies" to quote Julian. He's really a different kind of villain than Freeza and Cell.

Also, it's the ways that he changes throughout the arc that makes him interesting. Echoing what Caejones said, when we first see him he's childlike and kills and destroys because it's fun, not knowing that it's wrong. Then because of two evil humans he transforms and becomes evil. He knows that killing and destroying is wrong now, but he does it anyway because he likes inflicting death and destruction on people. He also desires to be the strongest being alive now. While his behavior isn't childlike anymore, he's still a goofy and fairly simple minded being. Then he absorbs Piccolo and Gotenks. With this change he becomes smarter, more wordy, boastful, and calculating; and loses most of the goofy behavior that defined the two previous Buus (though it still comes out at times). He now toys with his opponents and belittles them as opposed to straight trying to kill them like before. Then he turns into Kid Buu and goes through a complete regression. Gone is the reason and emotion the previous Buus displayed, all this Buu is is his innate desire to kill and destroy, making him the most dangerous. The other Buu's expressed joy in killing and destroying, but there was either some kind of reason behind it (Fat Buu doing it because it was fun, Super Buu because he liked being evil) or they had other desires (Super Buu wanting to be the strongest). With this Buu however, there's nothing outside of death and destruction and no reason behind it. He's a mindless blank slate of sorts (he's so mindless he can't even speak intelligibly) that ended up gaining a mind and emotions though absorbing others.

It's all of these changes he goes through that make him an interesting villain. The character himself isn't complex (then again, the only villains that you could call complex for Dragon Ball are Vegeta and Freeza), but it's the things that happen to him that change him and such that make him interesting.

[Vegeta Jr]

No, those changes are forced upon him by already established characters. Those traits are what make the absorbed characters great, not Buu.

[Blue]

It's unpredictable in all the wrong ways though. It's not a happy "I didn't see that coming!" it's a "You made me wait all that time and THIS is what happens!?" Sure it was unpredictable that Gohan spent a ton of episodes creating an ultimate power and then gets absorbed in 2. That doesn't mean it was a great move plot wise.

I was talking more about the crazy things that happen in the arc. Almost the entire cast being killed, everyone on Earth being killed, the Earth itself being destroyed, two people becoming one, the countless transformations Buu goes through, fighting candy, going inside the main villain's body, etc.

Right I know, but most of these were all executed really badly for reasons I've already mentioned. It was just constant random plot shifts because Toriyama couldn't focus on a single thing. When these things happen the plot gets more and more sloppy. If they were set up well they would be cool circumstances but most of these aren't. They just happen in the middle of another random plot thread.

For the record I do like Fat Boo and Kid Boo as characters. Super Boo with his absorptions we've kind of seen before in Freeza/Cell.

[Vegeta Jr]

Another thing the Buu saga keeps doing, having Goku wimp out even though he could finish it right there and then to let someone else have a go -_-

[Blue]

Another thing the Buu saga keeps doing, having Goku wimp out even though he could finish it right there and then to let someone else have a go -_-

That I don't have an issue with. Goku wants to make sure the world can defend itself when he's gone, perfectly plausible. What makes it even cooler is Muten Roshi wanted to make sure of the same thing which is why he tried to persuade Tenshinhan to the good side. It kind of shows how Goku has grown old and is deciding to pass the torch onto the next generation because he realizes he won't always be around. This was touched upon in the end of the Cell arc too which sets this portion up nicely.

[Vegeta Jr]

I can agree about Gotenks, but again with Vegeta. Sorry I don't buy it, especially as Vegeta is already dead.

[Blue]

I can agree about Gotenks, but again with Vegeta. Sorry I don't buy it, especially as Vegeta is already dead.

Yeah, that's classic Goku dicking around when he should be serious though. Still a Saiyan at heart y'know?

[Majin Buu]

No, those changes are forced upon him by already established characters. Those traits are what make the absorbed characters great, not Buu.

You can argue that, but again, it's the changes that he goes through and the dynamic between all of his forms that those changes create that make him interesting. And I never attributed the traits Buu gained from absorptions to him like they were qualities he had all along. I simply stated that he took on those traits when absorbed those characters.

And besides, he still has the funny and goofy part of him, that was independent of the characters he absorbed. Even the original Kid Buu had that aspect to him.

Right I know, but most of these were all executed really badly for reasons I've already mentioned. It was just constant random plot shifts because Toriyama couldn't focus on a single thing. When these things happen the plot gets more and more sloppy. If they were set up well they would be cool circumstances but most of these aren't. They just happen in the middle of another random plot thread.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then, because I never had a problem with the way those things were executed.

[Vegeta Jr]

Kid Buu is psychotic not goofy, Fat Buu is just the fat Kai and the other Buu's bar Super Buu are just Super Buu's personality + absorbed character.

There is nothing interesting about Buu whatsoever, he's just a psychotic killing machine that gets way too much screen time.

This is coming from a guy who loves Kid Buu by the way.

[Majin Buu]

Kid Buu is psychotic not goofy, Fat Buu is just the fat Kai and the other Buu's bar Super Buu are just Super Buu's personality + absorbed character.

There is nothing interesting about Buu whatsoever, he's just a psychotic killing machine that gets way too much screen time.

This is coming from a guy who loves Kid Buu by the way.

Kid Buu did his fair share of goofy things. Falling asleep before the battle, intentionally regenerating slowly just to mess with Goku and Vegeta, hooting and beating his chest like an ape, etc. The Dai Kaioshin brought it out more in Fat Buu, but I think the goofy aspect is still there in Kid Buu.

We'll have to agree to disagree as well, I think there are interesting aspects about Buu. You don't.

[caejones]

No, those changes are forced upon him by already established characters. Those traits are what make the absorbed characters great, not Buu.

I think Buu has unhealthily dependent relationships.
For the most powerful being in the universe, he spends a lot of time relying on others, even when in the process of taking things into his own hands.
It's when all of Buu's connections are literally severed that the world literally dissolves.

... -_- I know Toriyama wasn't thinking so deeply on it...

[Cipher]

I actually find the Buu arc to be less repetitive than anything post-Piccolo Daimao.

The other arcs had a very tried-and-true formula. Characters are beaten down. Characters train. Characters show results of training, transform and save the day. The Buu arc almost operated in a self-parody of that. After the extended comedy intro of the Great Saiyaman and the Tenkaichi Budokai (which is also unique among the Z-era arcs), we see transformations, training, and last ditch efforts failing one after another. It's the first time since the Saiyan arc where the audience really has to think, "Oh, well, they've really been building up this technique/training. Surely it will save the day," and then the opposite happens.

So, yeah, there are a lot of ass-pulls. But nearly all of them operate on some level of self-parody, and all of them fail spectacularly.

Super Saiyan 3: Incredibly ridiculous, and an incredible failure.

Fusion: Even after training in the Room of Spirit and Time, Gotenks loses his comedy-centric battle to Buu.

Gohan: It's a double-whammy here. First the Z-Sword is built up, only to break. Then after Gohan steps into the role worn by Goku in the Daimao, Saiyan and Namek arcs, he fails. The "I've trained to show up and save the day" character actually fails for once.

Vegeto: It's fairly obvious that you can't leave the main characters permanently fused, but he was also built up and failed to deliver.

At the end, we're left with Goku, Vegeta and Mr. Satan to take on the most unhinged incarnation of Buu yet. Three characters who had failed to defeat Buu just the previous day, with no new training, new no transformations, and no ace up the sleeve. There hasn't been an "Oh shit" moment in the series that large since Freeza showed up on top of that hill. They actually had to get crafty for once.

The Buu saga would have been repetitive if Gohan had killed Buu. He didn't.

There are numerous other reasons why it ranks second to the Namek arc as my favorite though. From the action/comedy blend, to Buu himself (bullshit he isn't a memorable villain), to the fact that the actual gods of the universe are calling on the main characters for help. And all Vegeta and Goku can do at first is discuss the fact that they seem to be above it all. There's a lot to enjoy.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Of course the Boo Arc is repetitive. In fact, the whole of Dragon Ball is repetitive. Toriyama reused the "Goku Saves The Day" 3 times, and two of them were in the same arc!

But Boo Arc being just as repetitive as the other arcs doesn't excuse its sloppiness and Toriyama's blatant boredom with Dragon Ball at the time.