The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon May 10, 2010 5:23 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:I don't know if I'm just being lazy or tone-deaf, but I really can't tell the differences between foreign performances and emotions unless it's really obvious.
Well, there you go. You just admitted that you personally have a difficult time picking up on performance nuances in a foreign language. There's certainly no shame in that, but if you know that this is a problem you have, you can't blame it on the voice actors.
The thing is though, if I don't like the voice, there's no reason for me to go on giving a crap. There are a few English voice performances in other dubs and US cartoons that, while they might be good objectively, I dislike them because of the voice.

I don't like Mosako Nozawa's Goku voice. Plain and simple. You can say everything in the world to convince me optherwise, but that'd be an exercise in pointlessness.
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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by Undercooked Sausage » Mon May 10, 2010 5:23 pm

I never thought of Goku as being a badass, even in the english dub. Isn't that Piccolo or Vegeta's job? The only time Goku can really be called a badass is that first time he went Super Saiyan.

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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon May 10, 2010 5:26 pm

I agree. The only time I ever got a "badass" vibe from English Goku was when he was SSJ3 and SSJ4.
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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by Amigo Ten » Mon May 10, 2010 5:28 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:As for what Amigo Ten said earlier about Japanese voice casts sounding "generic," I think that's a bit off base. I think it's just that Japanese voice casts go for actual acting rather than "cartoony caricature voice." We're all so used to the latter that when a more subdued performance comes in, it sounds "generic."
Why can't they do both? That's what makes a great voice actor. Being able to act out the lines well and find a proper voice for the character. That's why Goku's voice (and I'm talking about Goku specifically, not all of Nozawa's roles) stands out from the rest of the cast, followed by the Freeza and Kuririn. They all feel complete.

Simply trying to act out the lines well pretty much defeats the purpose of being a voice actor. Which is why most of the animated movies voice by regular actors have very few memorable performances, unless the actor in question has a memorable voice to begin with (James Earl Jones for example). And It's why most Japanese voice acting I've heard sounds very lackluster.

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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon May 10, 2010 5:32 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:As for what Amigo Ten said earlier about Japanese voice casts sounding "generic," I think that's a bit off base. I think it's just that Japanese voice casts go for actual acting rather than "cartoony caricature voice." We're all so used to the latter that when a more subdued performance comes in, it sounds "generic."
Why can't they do both? That's what makes a great voice actor. Being able to act out the lines well and find a proper voice for the character. That's why Goku's voice (and I'm talking about Goku specifically, not all of Nozawa's roles) stands out from the rest of the cast, followed by the Freeza and Kuririn. They all feel complete.

Simply trying to act out the lines well pretty much defeats the purpose of being a voice actor. Which is why most of the animated movies voice by regular actors have very few memorable performances, unless the actor in question has a memorable voice to begin with (James Earl Jones for example). And It's why most Japanese voice acting I've heard sounds very lackluster.
Yeah, I don't understand. What would be so bad about finding the right performance and making it fit the appearance? Is it "insulting" or something?

Part of what makes a performance good is being able to actually see that voice coming from the character's body. If Biggie Smalls played Goku's voice and was just as cheery as Goku actually is, would it still be good to you?
Last edited by jjgp1112 on Mon May 10, 2010 5:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by Amigo Ten » Mon May 10, 2010 5:33 pm

Kaboom wrote:Freeza looks somewhat androgynous, so we simply can't have him sound like a classy emperor-type.
His JP voice perfectly androgynous. That's why I like it actually. You get the feeling that the VA has based the voice on more than just the script. If he'd had the same kind of voice other evil-emperor type characters usually have, it would have fallen flat.

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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by penguintruth » Mon May 10, 2010 5:33 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:Simply trying to act out the lines well pretty much defeats the purpose of being a voice actor. Which is why most of the animated movies voice by regular actors have very few memorable performances, unless the actor in question has a memorable voice to begin with (James Earl Jones for example). And It's why most Japanese voice acting I've heard sounds very lackluster.
Most English voices for cartoon characters try to be outlandish and are only memorable for their outlandishness, where most of the great Japanese peformances I've heard are memorable for their geniuneness and emotional believability.

The exceptions I find with English voice acting is in things like the DCAU, where they had the sense to find voices who fit the characters and acted naturally in those roles, rather than overpowering them. They become memorable because they suit the characters, they're not just trying to be garish and obnoxious for the sake of being memorable.
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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by Blue » Mon May 10, 2010 5:40 pm

The Japanese audience grew up with Goku for about 150 something episodes. It wasn't unnatural for them to hear the same voice only less kiddie coming out of an adult Goku later in Z. Most other audiences didn't have that experience so I believe it's natural for them to be taken aback by it.

I didn't like the Japanese Goku's voice before watching Dragonball where that voice sounded natural coming out of little Goku. I watched the two sagas of DB I had on DVD at the time in Japanese and then transitioned into DBZ to find the the voice was a LOT more natural to my ears. You get to appreciate the kid to adult transition voice wise if you actually hear him as a child.

So I don't expect people from other counties to love Goku's Japanese voice. Obviously they jump into the most popular portion of the anime (Z) and it is really weird to hear that voice from the word "go". They get put off of the Japanese version and never watch the show in the order it was intended to be watched.

As for other Japanese voices in DBZ being disliked I think that's just a subjective matter without any reason behind it.
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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon May 10, 2010 5:43 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:The thing is though, if I don't like the voice, there's no reason for me to go on giving a crap. There are a few English voice performances in other dubs and US cartoons that, while they might be good objectively, I dislike them because of the voice.

I don't like Mosako Nozawa's Goku voice. Plain and simple. You can say everything in the world to convince me optherwise, but that'd be an exercise in pointlessness.
I wasn't trying to convince you about Goku in that post. You were saying before that Japanese voice actors, in general, sound indistinguishable from one another to you but then followed up by saying that you have a hard time picking up nuances in foreign voice work anyway. I was just saying that it seems unfair of you to criticize Japanese voice acting in general when you admit that the language barrier is a legitimate hurdle in your ability to comprehend those nuances.

And as for what you and Amigo Ten are now arguing, look to penguintruth's post. I'm not saying that they shouldn't come up with a distinctive voice for a character. Even in live acting, you develop those. But there is this misconception in animation that distinction is the same as cartoony gimmick. The DCAU is a perfect example. With Kevin Conroy as Batman/Bruce Wayne, he's not doing some cartoony shtick. He's acting (which makes sense as he's a Juliard-trained actor). And he has different voice for both Wayne and Batman, and while his Batman does have a gruff, raspy sound to it, it's not over the top. He has created a character (two, in fact) and is simply acting, not tooning out.
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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by SylentEcho » Mon May 10, 2010 5:46 pm

I grew up watching the first ever dub done by the Ocean Group. The voices fit the characters perfectly and I still love their work. Then along came the Funi dub which I never liked since day one, but was forced to like because there was no other option. I eventually began liking it.

At the same time found the Japanese voices really odd and found the music odd too. The music didn't feel like it suited the situations happening on screen. I slowly began to enjoy it and after that, there was no going back. The Japanese dub will probably forever be the best way to watch DBZ ever.
Piccolo's JP voice, for example, is incredibly forgettable.
What are you talking about? I think his voice is awesome. It sounds evil and good at the same time which totally suits his personality. I also love the way he yells continuously as he fights.

I love Nowaza's voice for Goku. Sure it doesn't suit his appearance, but you kind of get used to it. I would rather Goku be voiced by her than anyone else. She's awesome, she's almost 71 and she can still yell at the top of her lungs like before. As for the English version, Peter Kelamis will forever be the best Goku in my opinion. Ian Corlett is a close second.

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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by B » Mon May 10, 2010 5:52 pm

I personally don't feel this "girly" accusations holds too much water anymore, if it ever did, because of time. Nozawa has aged, and her voice naturally gets deeper. With recent games and Kai, she deepens it further to play Goku.
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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by Amigo Ten » Mon May 10, 2010 5:58 pm

penguintruth wrote:Most English voices for cartoon characters try to be outlandish and are only memorable for their outlandishness where most of the great Japanese peformances I've heard are memorable for their geniuneness and emotional believability.
Well, that would be because most English language cartoons are outlandish and comedic, so there's not much need for a great emotional performance. But you still get a great comedic performance (sometimes, depends on the show), as well as memorable voices that suit the characters. I can't remember ever seeing an English language cartoon and thinking "Wow, that voice really doesn't fit that character". Or a couple hours after seeing it thinking "What did that character sound like again? I've forgotten." Which happens a lot with Japanese voice acting, the latter one especially.

Japanese animation was a much broader spectrum of subject matter, so there's more opportunity for great emotional performances, but in my experience it hasn't meant that there actually are a lot a great emotional performances. I wouldn't say a performance has to be particularly emotional to be memorable anyway, which is often something I hear on this subject. People praise Japanese voice acting because of it's seriousness and emotion, but it's that exact thing that puts me off sometimes. It seems so overdramatic and emotionally wrought at times, but that's mostly the script I think, because Japanese dialogue tends to be quite dry and expository, without much character. But anyway, I'm getting off the point.

The memorable performances, both Japanese and English, are the ones that do everything right. A great, fitting voice for the character and great performance of the script, whatever it calls for (drama, comedy, whatever). Nozawa does that for Goku, whereas (since I'm getting back on topic) Schemmel doesn't. I don't think he's terrible. He does an okay voice and an okay performance, but that's it.
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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by the_abberration » Mon May 10, 2010 6:01 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:I agree with the OP mostly. I hate the fact that Adult Goku sounds like a 12 year old boy. Plus the fact that I just don't like Nozawa's voice. Her screams sound like she's coughing something up.
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SHINOBI-03 wrote:You don't meet a full grown man with a high pitched voice like him, do you?
Two names: Michael Jackson and Mike Tyson
I wouldn't exactly count those two as normal. Especially since the punchline of every joke about the latter has to do with his voice.
The question referred to full grown men with high pitched voices. Too which both had/have. Not if they were normal or not. Also the former still makes money off of his even in death.
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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by Amigo Ten » Mon May 10, 2010 6:02 pm

SylentEcho wrote:
Piccolo's JP voice, for example, is incredibly forgettable.
What are you talking about? I think his voice is awesome. It sounds evil and good at the same time which totally suits his personality. I also love the way he yells continuously as he fights.
Well, I just forget his voice immediately. I can watch an episode, and then 10 minutes not remember what he sounds like.

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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon May 10, 2010 6:05 pm

Well, see, here's the problem: Dragon Ball was a gag manga. It was silly and over the top, but it still has strong, emotional moments as well. Natural-sounding voices can be comedic, but it's a bit more difficult for goofy-sounding cartoon voices to carry any emotional weight. If the dub Kaio didn't sound so annoying on his own, I might concede that he fits the sillier aspects of the character. The problem is, it's impossible to take that voice seriously, and Kaio does have a lot of serious moments. It would be like trying to give Bugs Bunny a serious moment. Mel Blanc was a great actor and a genius at voices, but Bugs Bunny is not the kind of voice or character that could talk about death with any kind of gravitas. Case in point: Cartoon All-Stars to the Rescue (and, yes, I know Blanc was already dead by that point, but my point remains the same). Could you honestly take Michelangeo's burnt-out surfer dude voice seriously as he tried to tell you that drugs were bad?
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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by caejones » Mon May 10, 2010 6:09 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:
People praise Japanese voice acting because of it's seriousness and emotion, but it's that exact thing that puts me off sometimes. It seems so overdramatic and emotionally wrought at times, but that's mostly the script I think, because Japanese dialogue tends to be quite dry and expository, without much character. But
Let's keep in mind that many of the characterizing nuances in the Japanese language (such as pronoun choice and honorifics) don't translate so well into English.

Of course, in most anime that I've heard, that doesn't feel that diversified, either. The boyish character goes with "boku" and someone trying to sound tough goes with "ore" and "KISAMA WA ...!" all the time. But... Eh.
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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by penguintruth » Mon May 10, 2010 6:11 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:
SylentEcho wrote:
Piccolo's JP voice, for example, is incredibly forgettable.
What are you talking about? I think his voice is awesome. It sounds evil and good at the same time which totally suits his personality. I also love the way he yells continuously as he fights.
Well, I just forget his voice immediately. I can watch an episode, and then 10 minutes not remember what he sounds like.
I just cannot wrap my mind around forgetting Toshio Furukawa's voice. Like I said, he has one of the most distinctive voices in Japanese voice acting.

But it is possible that I've trained myself to hear him by now, given the number of anime I've heard with him in it (Gundam, Patlabor, Bubblegum Crisis, LoGH, Dragon Ball Z, Plot of the Fuma Clan).
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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by Amigo Ten » Mon May 10, 2010 6:15 pm

I didn't say Funi's dub did it any better. I also didn't say every character needed a goofy voice. Goku doesn't have a goofy voice. Fry in Futurama doesn't have a goofy voice. But they're both great and memorable performances. I can't tell you why Piccolo's JP voice isn't memorable to me, but it just isn't. There's nothing remarkable or special or... anything, about it. All I hear when he speaks is just some guys voice.

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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by JulieYBM » Mon May 10, 2010 6:28 pm

Just want to say Gaffer Tape is right on the nose of it all. There tends to be much more emotional weight placed in anime, where silly voices aren't going to cut it. Actors like Toshio Furukawa, however, can play even flippant asswipe characters and be unrecognizable in another role. Case in point, Kai Shiden. When I started getting back into Gundam (and specifically the Universal Century stories) I watched the Mobile Suit Gundam film trilogy. A few years later I got into Dragon Ball's Japanese version and not once did I notice that that weasily little punk Kai was now playing the proud and tough Piccolo. Furukawa carries himself so different in the two roles it's incredible. Throw in his performance as Portgas D. Ace in One Piece and you've got another transformation, albeit one a little more 'vocally' closer to Piccolo, but tonally completely different.
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Re: The most famous controversy - Goku's Japanese voice

Post by VegettoEX » Mon May 10, 2010 6:35 pm

Because I can already sense the beginnings of it, please note that any further posts based on sarcasm and dismissal will be immediately met with either deletion or account warnings, depending on the severity. Look no further than Gaffer Tape for an example on how to display your points and thoughts with clarity, intelligence, and class.
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