DBZ VS KAI VS MANGA (the great filler debate)

[Questrider]

With all the Dragonball material being released these days, it’s easy to find new questions, and or interesting topics for discussion.
Specifically: the future of DBZ.

Now that Dragonball Z Kai is in full swing, where will this leave the original DBZ series?
And what I mean by that is, what will the “die hard” fans respect/like more?

Will you hold Kai in a higher regard because it follows the manga more closely?
Or will you still hold DBZ as your top viewing choice whenever you revisit the series?

Is your answer solely based on what can be considered canon and what’s not?

Now, before you start typing away your responses, let me throw this out there:

So called filler is NOT filler. (imo)
At least hear me out:

When I first discovered the awesomeness that is DBZ, I was originally exposed to the anime and not the manga.
Also, for the sake of knowing all of the facts, I was introduced to the FUNimation English version.

That said, I have always felt as such:
I FEEL that the anime and the manga should always be viewed as separate works of art. They are completely different entities and yet the so called “purists” have always insisted that they are or should be considered one and the same. Don’t deny it.

We’ve all heard this before: “That part of the anime is not canon or he didn’t say that in the manga.”
My response to this has always been: “The anime is NOT the manga.” Should it be??

Purists spend so much time debating what is canon and what is not when the word “cannon” in this case should not even EXIST.
It’s an ADAPTATION.

You could have argued against this claim in the past but now that DBZ KAI is out, this really changes the game.
The purpose of KAI, as we all know by now, is to follow the manga almost word for word, letter for letter, action for action.
Was that ever the purpose of the original DBZ? I don’t think so. They purposely stretched it out. They purposely inserted extra scenes to fill the time block and as a result, we were exposed to a LOT more material.
Sure, the material did not appear in the manga but then why even bother making the series if it was just going to be a carbon copy of the manga?
Before Kai, the filler in DBZ has always been debated but now that KAI is out, what’s there to say now?

A great example is Goku’s little adventure on the space ship on his way to Namek. You know, when he had to throw the kamehameha to keep from getting sucked into that sun. Remember?
That scene was awesome, (in my opinion) but according to the purists, this never happened, nor did it ever exist.
Well…WTF? I just SAW it.

Just because it did NOT happen in the manga, can it not happen in the anime?

Again: they should be treated like 2 separate works of art. They should be treated as 2 VERY separate but SIMILAR stories. I mean, they really are anyway, right?
Even before debate?

So why, someone please tell me why some people insist on insulting the filler? I mean, if you hate it that much, why don’t you just stick with reading the manga?
No one is forcing you to watch, right?

In my opinion, a lot of that so-called filler ADDED to the show.
We were exposed to longer fights, more character building moments, and just more, more, MORE DBZ in general.
I guess I just don’t understand what’s NOT to like about filler. (Except in the case of the Garlic Jr. saga, lol)

Ok, so it’s obvious I can go on and on so I’ll try to wrap this up by bringing up my last point.
DBZ Kai is apparently what all the purists have been waiting for. It’s the closest and most accurate re-telling of what appears in the manga which brings me to my final questions:

Will the original DBZ become obsolete to some of the series’ biggest fans? Will you write off DBZ as the “wrong” version or the “fake” version of DBZ?
Would you never watch the original again now that you have KAI? Or will the so-called purists cave every now and then just to see that longer fight?

I say that because there’s GOT to be some filler you really did not mind, am I right?
But by taking your stance on what’s canon and what’s NOT cannon, is it fair for you to pick and choose what scenes fit in your canon universe?
Is it fair to compare the manga and the anime when they aren’t even close to the same thing?
Doesn’t the anime deserve its own canon universe? Separate from the manga?
I mean, if they originally set out to make DBZ perfectly canon to the manga or how the purists wanted things, we would have ended up with KAI first right?
It would have been 130 or so episodes instead of 291, right? Think about how much we would have lost!

Obviously, I’ve given you all plenty to discuss and I hope to hear some creative and thoughtful answers.

Please keep in mind that I am in no way trying to bash the “purists” or the “die hard” fans since I easily fit into one of these categories myself.
I am merely trying to understand multiple points of view and am trying to discuss what the future holds for the original anime known as DBZ.

[Gaffer Tape]

Let me pose this question to you: When people discuss Harry Potter, for instance, and the stories contained within, do they refer to the books as canon or the movies? The answer is obviously the books. And it's the same way for the DB manga vs. the DB television series. So I think we're well within our right to dismiss filler as simply that. It doesn't mean we don't like it (hell, there's a lot of filler that I love). But just like Harry Potter, there's only one REAL version of the story, and it's the one that came first. I totally get where you're coming from as I was introduced to the series through the dubbed anime.

Also, while I would call Kai closer to the manga, I wouldn't go so far as to say "letter by letter, scene by scene," what have you. It, just like Z, is an adaptation. And Kai itself is both an adaptation of the manga and an adaptation of Z. Well, technically, it's an adaptation of an adaptation. DB begat Z. Z begat Kai. So if you look at it from that standpoint, Kai is actually further from the manga, even though it's cut to more closely resemble the manga. But I think that statement is a bit misleading. Z very closely follows the manga. Aside from a few changes, nearly every line is perfectly replicated from the manga, and many panels are practically duplicated to animation form. Most of what's different is the added stuff.

So to answer your question, when it comes to the anime, I prefer Z. The manga is the real story, but Z is the real adaptation. Maybe that seems inconsistent to you... it does a bit to me too, but that's how I see it.

[Adamant]

I'll be sticking with DBZ as the anime adaption of chapter 195+ as well. Kai may be closer to the manga, but that doesn't mean it's more entertaining to watch. The voices, the picture quality (most of Kai's redrawn scenes look terrible, and out of place too), the pacing, the music - it's just a better product overall.

I did read the manga before watching the anime, and it will always be the "main" version of Dragonball for me (hell, I still haven't watched the entire anime - I've seen all of DB and all of Z up to Buu's dog getting shot, as well as all the movies. Nothing of GT, though), but if I want to watch something from the Saiyan/Freeza/Cell/Buu arcs, DBZ is what I'll go to, not DBK. DBK is more of a curiosity.

[Gaffer Tape]

Oh, yeah, I should mention that too. I've read all the manga, but there are large chunks of the anime I've yet to see.

[Travis Touchdown]

I'll throw out my POV Questrider, though it's not popular.

I see Dragon Ball Z as Chapter 3 of the grand story of Dragon World. I've always seen DBZ to be an expansion of the manga; the entire manga is included in the anime, along with extras. For me, and me alone, it overides the manga in that regard. The manga itself can be enjoyed without the filler and extra stuff though. If I get told something isn't canon because it didn't happen in the manga, I don't argue or care cuz it's not really worth arguing over. At the end of the day, we can all at least agree that Goku defeated Buu and went on to train his reincarnation Uub.

When it comes to viewing the manga as a different entity all together; I'm of 2 minds on the issue. For anime/mangas like Karin or Chrono Crusade, I agree whole heartedly. The Karin manga has a point and reason behind her nosebleeds while it's an issue never resolved in the anime. The anime goes off in a completely different direction dealing with Vampire Hunters. Chrono Crusade is another; whereas in the anime the Devils are actual Devils from Hell, whereas they're aliens in the manga. These are just 2 I'm aware of, but the anime and mangas tell completely different stories. Sure, at points they intersect, but they just as quickly go back to their own tangents and feature completely different endings. Dragon Ball Z doesn't do that. The anime tells every arc featured in the manga, with extra stuff (filler) added. However, some out there hate loathe and despise the filler with a passion.

When it comes to Dragon Ball Z Kai, I see this as its own story based on the way it's presented. Episode 1 gives us a quick prologue of Goku's life beginning with Bardock through Dragon Ball and then jumps right in. The same events happen, but in an abbreviated sense, some filler is still there, and they say entirely different lines.

Everyone has their own canon that they won't let anyone change. As a Tenchi Muyo fan, I'm happy with the idea of multiple canons or universes. Here's how I list them;
Anime Canon
1. Dr. Slump & Arale
2. Dragon Ball
3. Dragon Ball Z
4. Dragon Ball GT

Manga Canon
1. Dr. Slump
2. Dragon Ball
3. Dragon Ball Z
(Note: I'm well aware there is no DBZ manga in Japan, but I listed it anyway for those who are more acquainted with the Viz edition and we've had so many new members lately I want to keep it as least confusing as possible.)

Other Canon
Dragon Ball Z Kai

My Canon
1. Dr. Slump and Arale
2. Dragon Ball (anime)
3. Dragon Ball Z (anime)
4. Neko Majin Z
5. Dragon Ball GT
6. Dragon Ball Online
(Note: Most of the movies and TV specials for DBZ and DBGT are included.)

So that's how I see things. However, my way certainly isn't everyone else's way.

[Castor Troy]

I consider the anime version of the Trunks Special (Trunks the Story) to be more canon over the manga. The anime handled it so much better.

[Questrider]

@Travis-
You explained it perfectly.
Like you, I also view the DBZ franchise as 3 separate cannons.
1. Manga
2. Anime
3. Kai

I think each deserves its own respect and while our views are not popular, I am inclined to agree.

[obiwan23s]

Kai is a weird sort of product because it's executed the wrong way. Yes, it's a decent idea to cut all the filler out of Z and produce a story-only animated version, but like most people I am of the opinion that they should have just redone the show altogether if they wanted to achieve this. It certainly would have sold, and I would have been all for it. The thing with filler you have to realize is that every successful shonen show deals with filler. Some shows even get canceled because of too much filler, or are forced into filler-only endings. I'm thankful that didn't happen to Dragon Ball. I do like some filler in the Z series, but some of it is outright terrible. Other filler content would have been better if placed somewhere else in the series. For example, regardless of how some people here may love the Garlic Junior saga because of running memes or animation quality in certain episodes, I think it completely bogs down the gap between Namek exploding and Trunks showing up when less than ten episodes later, the story goes through a three year timeskip with only two filler episodes. It's wrought with bad storytelling, bad plot devices and bad characters (mainly the villains).

I figure once the Dragon Box release is finished in the US, I'll simply fast forward through the filler I don't like. But for now I'm putting up with it as I watch the series in order for likely the final time.

[Questrider]

@Travis-
I should probably also add that I too consider GT to be cannon..part of the anime cannon.

I will always, ALWAYS have respect for the manga but to me, the anime just took that original material so much further and I dare say I like it a gazillion times more. Thus having GT to watch was right up my alley.
Sure, it has inconsistantsies but the bottom line was is that the story did not end with Z...and that meant more time for me to spend with my favorite characters.

[Gaffer Tape]

Okay. Forgive me for being nitpicky, but the word is "canon." A "cannon" is what you fire cannonballs from.

[Questrider]

@Gaffer-
I WAS talking about cannons. You know, like the one's on a pirate ship?
BOOM BOOM BOOM.

Just kidding. My bad.
And here I am always trying to be good about perfect spelling.

[penguintruth]

Dragon Ball, the manga, will always be the proper, 100%, canon of the material. But that said, it's not perfect.

Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are the animated version of this material as created by Toei. That's the decided animated version, flaws and all. You don't have to like it's flaws, but they are part of the experience.

This is one of the reasons I can't accept Kai as a "replacement" for Z, because as closer as it is to the manga, it's for one not created to supplant Z with a more manga-accurate version, it's a cut up version of the already existing version.

To me, good or bad, the filler has become part of its own "animated version canon". Personally, I find a lot of the early filler, in the Saiyan arc, really helps to build Gohan as a character and some of the later non-canon scenes gives the story some room to breathe and grow. Yes, it goes way too far at times, but Kai does the opposite. I think that there's a certain necessity to let manga adaptations to breathe a little in their anime adaptations.

I appreciate Kai for its better pacing, but it doesn't become "the new Z", but rather a slightly different way to watch it, a "shortcut version", and that's about it.

[Questrider]

@Penquin-
Very nicely stated.

I don't want Kai to replace Z either as the preffered version to watch.
What bothers me more than anything is that these kids today will be shown an "altered" version rather than the full raw deal but I guess if it brings more fans to the franchise, I suppose it's still a win.

[penguintruth]

Well, I owe Kai one thing. It reawakened my Dragon Ball fandom.

[OutlawTorn]

I very nearly picked up the first Kai volume today but, ultimately, I opted against it. Regardless of the script being more accurate than the Z dub on the Dragon Boxes, I am getting the Dragon Boxes and I would much rather have all of Z than what essentially amounts to a Cliff's Notes version. (to pick from an earlier comparison, the "Cliff's Notes" impression is one of my gripes with the Goblet of Fire movie)

[Amigo Ten]

I'll just stick with the manga. When I talk about Dragon Ball, that's generally what I'm referring to. Unless the animated version is directly brought up, I don't really think about it.

[Cipher]

Questrider, you and I seem to be of the same opinion in regards to the anime and manga. They're separate entities. One leads to GT and one doesn't. In one, Bulma switched bodies with Ginyu and in one she didn't. In one, Dodoria killed Cargo and in the other Freeza did.

I agree that it's ridiculous to say, "But such and such didn't happen because it's not in the manga."

But it did happen. In the anime. Separate canons. Even Kai stands as a separate canon from either the original anime trilogy and the manga.

Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are the animated version of this material as created by Toei. That's the decided animated version, flaws and all. You don't have to like it's flaws, but they are part of the experience.

This is one of the reasons I can't accept Kai as a "replacement" for Z, because as closer as it is to the manga, it's for one not created to supplant Z with a more manga-accurate version, it's a cut up version of the already existing version.

This is the other sentiment I highly agree with. Kai's biggest problem (besides its soundtrack) is the simple fact that it's a Frankenstein series. Cutting up and working around pre-existing footage is always, always going to be an artistic mess if you're just trying to pare it down.

Even the "better pacing" is something of a sham. First, you have the fact that individual scenes are already paced in and of themselves to the original series, which just makes things feel off a lot of the time. Secondly, you have the fact that what works as a weekly chapter of manga does not always transition smoothly to television. Sometimes you need that padding to make the animated version work, and just taking it out without thinking can lead to some very jarring moments.

If and when there's a proper remake with new animation, I'll be right there to watch it. In the meantime, Kai continues to bore me to tears every chance I give it. I'll take Z and a fast-forward button any day.

[Bussani]

Wow, what a rant.

I just want to say that I think you're taking what people say the wrong way. When someone points out that something only happened in the anime and not the manga, they're not saying, "This is terrible. This doesn't exist. This never happened as far as I'm concerned." By pointing out it's filler they're just saying that it wasn't written by the original author, and thus if it doesn't fit or doesn't make sense or creates plot holes, that's why. It's not that everyone hates filler or doesn't think the anime can be its own continuity; it's just that when discussing the finer points of the series, random information from pieces of filler that are never mentioned again and which the author himself likely ignored just isn't very helpful. If you're trying to figure out what the author intended, you can only use what you know came from the author himself.

In short, it's probably not that there are people who don't think the anime is allowed to by its own canon (that'd be a silly thing to believe); rather, I think there are people who don't care about the anime canon. I know I don't.

I guess I just don’t understand what’s NOT to like about filler.

Some series do filler okay. I don't think Dragon Ball is one of them, but I'm sure there are a few bits of filler that I did like.

On the other hand, there are a lot that I feel just waste time without adding anything constructive. It's a common problem with filler, really. You'd think extra time to flesh out a plot or develop characters would be a good thing, but since it has to then go back to the story the manga has presented, nothing important can ever really happen in filler. It has to happen, then be able to go back to the plot as if it hadn't. This sometimes leaves you with things like Bulma getting her body stolen by Ginyu, which wastes a bit of time before everything going back to how it started and no one ever mentioning it again. There's another part like this in the Buu saga where Buu, after "absorbing" Vegetto, flies around the world to celebrate with Mr. Satan and Dende following. Then he ends up right back where he started so they can get back to the plot. It's just a few minutes of pointless nothing, which is the very nature of filler unless you do it very well.

Then there are other times where someone writing the filler will make something happen without knowing that, as far as Toriyama is concerned, that's not how it works. For instance, the filler where the Saiyan pod projects a moon into the sky and makes Gohan transform into an Oozaru. Unless that projected moon somehow gives off brutz waves, that shouldn't have worked. Then there's how in filler they say that you can't be killed if you're already dead, but towards the end of the manga we learn that if you die while dead, you disappear from both worlds for good. Even Toriyama forgets/ignores/didn't even know about these bits of filler, so it's understandable that people in discussions would ignore them, too.

Oh, and anime filler always makes dumb characters dumber (Goku ripping the steering wheel out of his car) and female characters bitchier (Chichi is actually quite pleasant and understandable in the manga).

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

@Travis-
You explained it perfectly.
Like you, I also view the DBZ franchise as 3 separate cannons.
1. Manga
2. Anime
3. Kai

I think each deserves its own respect and while our views are not popular, I am inclined to agree.

I see it as two separate canons: the Manga and the Anime (including GT and Kai). I consider Kai to be under the umbrella of Anime because that's exactly what it is.


To answer your question, I consider the Manga and Anime two separate entities because they are very different experiences from each other.

[Rocketman]

Now that dubbed Kai is being broadcast, I've recorded some episodes and am watching. I'm about 20 minutes into Episode 1 AND THIS IS FUCKING BEAUTIFUL. It beats the everliving balls out of Z's horrible shitty shitfucking pacing of shit.

I LOVE KAI. It's like the manga finally got adapted decently instead of being used as toilet paper!

I guess I just don’t understand what’s NOT to like about filler.

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